Timing belt broke!!!!!!!! Need a mechanic!

longcommute

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
TDI
new beetle,2002,auto
Can anyone direct me to a mechanic in the macon ga or jacksonville fl area, that is reputable in replacing timing belts. This is for a 99 jetta tdi, belt broke so the extent of damage is not known as of yet........can't even imagine taking this to a "stealer" for repair.
This is my inlaws car and they missed the timing belt change, car has 90k on it, they bought it with 50k and didn't realize it need the change. Any responses will be greatly appreciated.
thanks
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Don't know anyone in the area, but I can guarantee it'll AT LEAST need the head pulled off just to see what all needs to be replaced.
Don't try and just put a belt on, waste of time.

Incidentally, '99 is a split year. Be sure to convey early or late '99. Totally different cars.
 

longcommute

Member
Joined
Aug 5, 2004
TDI
new beetle,2002,auto
many thanks
I am not sure which month it was produced.

Is the split at June of 99?
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
A late '99 looks the same as a new one, an early '99 is the body back to '93. "A4 and A3" chassis
 

Muggins

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 7, 2002
Location
Barrie, Canada
TDI
02 Golf GL 4dr 5spd
Hey Brian! When are you going to open a franchise in Canada -- specifically near Toronto. $250 for a T-belt installation, water pump, injection pump bolts and adjustment, tensioner, all the bolts for the engine, etc. Can't beat that price -- even in US$, and it sounds like you really know what you're doing. You can pay 3x as much (or more) and end up with total incompetance, as we all know.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Ah, see, I leave incompetance out of the bill...to save you money!


Sorry, but all work must be brought to me, but I would love the cold Canadian weather and would gladly embrace the all-metric system!
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
>>love the cold Canadian weather <<

This makes me suspect your sanity, but... since I've been living up here by choice, perhaps mine as well...

I anticipate needing a belt change around christmastime... (at least according to the milage schedule... these have been "easy" highway miles, so I could stretch the time a bit, but not really until warm weather arrives...) Do you mean to say that you would consider changing a timing belt without a well-heated garage in the dead of winter????

You must be heartier than the folks I hang around with...

All the best,

Yuri.
 

CB

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 27, 2002
Location
ga
TDI
97 Black
Is it absolutely impossible on the new engines to drop a belt, and not damage the valves, or pistons (or head)??
I had an 82 pickup with an 85 Jetta hydraulic lifter IDI motor that dropped a belt, and did NO DAMAGE at all.. Parts place in Auburn Hills Mich said it was impossible (not so) 4grand+ in second gear, and a cover welded nut came loose from timing belt cover and got between belt and drive, split the belt (bolt imprint clearly visible) Thought the same thing, but it was fine for at least 50K no problem.
Go figure..

Regards
CB&Stoker
 

LanduytG

Vendor
Joined
Sep 5, 2001
Location
Greenfield, IN
TDI
99 NB 82 Westfalia Diesel
Is it absolutely impossible on the new engines to drop a belt, and not damage the valves, or pistons (or head)??
Not a true statement, I have seen 2 ALH motors that broke belts and did not bend a valve, break a piston or bend a rod. All it did was blew the he!! out of all the lifters.

Greg
 

tiredone2

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2004
TDI
2000 VW Jetta GLS TDI
Ah the ole broken timing belt. Sorry to hear of that. I personally dont like the fact that our TDIs have one.....and I often wonder of who the genius engineer was that decided it was going to be a great idea for a diesel, and what they were smoking at the time.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The genius engineer made a powerful, quick-revving, long lasting, and efficient engine. He also stated to periodically change the belt! Normal PM will prevent 99% of any timing belt problems. All my cars have timing belts, some of them interference, and I have never, ever, ever had one single problem with any of them! Chains on OHC engines are much more involved, much more expensive, and do not last forever. You could change 10 TDI timing belts in the time it takes you to do ONE chain on a new Toyota Camry 2.4L...and do you honestly think that chain will last as long as even 5 TDI timing belts????
 

wrenching40plus

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Sparkle City, SC 29306
TDI
Jetta 2000 (given to bro-in-law)
OK, let's accept for the moment that timing belts if changed regularly are a reasonable item on the ALH engine, for example. Have y'all taken a close look at the new PD system... where the sprocket-teeth are NOT the same all the way around... several of the recesses/valleys are intentionally made larger, to accommodate the (comparatively severe) stretching required by the fuel injection functions. Any idea what this will mean for life of the belts? Frankly, to me, it sounds like an invitation to failure
I wish a qualified engineer would weigh-in on this subject.
 

tiredone2

Active member
Joined
Aug 4, 2004
TDI
2000 VW Jetta GLS TDI
do you honestly think that chain will last as long as even 5 TDI timing belts????
Yes I do, IF the chain setup is designed correctly, the chain is a double row roller design, and it gets proper oil changes.
IMHO a belt is great if you are running a little honda or toyota gasser where the belt runs the valve train and maybe the water pump....but I feel that a belt setup running the injection pump, water pump, and the valve train is a bit too much stress for the belt on a diesel. Add to this the exceptionally high cost to replace the belt on a TDI (and do it right), and the fact that if the belt does break or the tensioner or a roller goofs up you will have major engine damage...the better solution would have been a chain.
 

wrenching40plus

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Sparkle City, SC 29306
TDI
Jetta 2000 (given to bro-in-law)
You could change 10 TDI timing belts in the time it takes you to do ONE chain on a new Toyota Camry....
I can't speak for the Toyota engine, but I've observed a number of Mercedes timing chain changes, even a 1947 Pontiac straight-8 timing chain change, by techs who know their stuff. They have clever ways of attaching the new chain to the old, and they make the work go quickly and efficiently. The reason VW cites for its preference of belts is "quiet" operation. IMHO, the downside of bent valves, punched pistons, etc., is worth avoiding at the cost of a few decibels... flak suit on
 

AndyBees

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 27, 2003
Location
Southeast Kentucky
TDI
Silver 2003 Jetta TDI, Silver 2000 Jetta TDI (sold), '84 Vanagon with '02 ALH engine
I agree 100% with your analysis.

I once owned a 1971 Ford Pinto. It had an engine that was made in Germany and had a Timing Belt. In fact, (believe it or not), a VW Rabbit Gasser belt would fit the Pinto Engine.

I have owned (and still own) the old style VW diesels (1.5 and 1.6). They have timing belts and work just fine. Of course, a TB change on them is much easier than on a TDI. But, as with the TDI, if the belt breaks you will at least have bent valves (maybe not observable to the naked eye), stamped pistons by all the exhaust valves, possibly damaged cam followers, gouged follower holes, and maybe a bent rod.

I had a TB to break on a 1.6 NA VW diesel. I had been running about 65 mph and come up to a three-way stop. As I was approaching the intersection, I just kicked the tranny into neutral and let the car coast to the stop sign. However, just almost instantly after I kicked it into neutral the engine stalled. ...... the rest is history. All four pistons were stamped by the exhaust valves, two or three of the exhast valves were visibly bent.... luckily the cam follower holes were not damaged!
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yes, you can change the chain by attaching the new one and fishing it around, but that does not get any sprockets or guides. The labor time to install a chain on an old MB 617 diesel is on the order of 40 hours! Yes, they do last a long time, typically 300k miles or so, but come on! 40 hours!??? A TDI, even at 60k intervals at even 5 hours apiece, you'd still spend less time!

I find people afraid of belts simply because they do not understand them and hear about some horror story. But most of these cars simply don't have timing belt problems so long as they are cared for correctly and serviced correctly. Granted neither myself nor any engineer cannot overcome what some idiot may do to a car. And trust me, even idiots can buy tools. I've seen it all too often. I have had to redo dozens of botched jobs on all sorts of cars, there are some real winners out there


It is no secret that there are more stresses on a diesel's timing belt versus the average gassers timing belt, but just because it is a belt does not automatically make it failure-prone. German engines with belt driven OHC seem to be less tolerant of neglect, whereas the Japanese engines are much more forgiving. And their scheduled changeout is a pretty long time as well.

At Lexus, most of our cars have a 90k interval, and even after that, the belts typically are still tight and have no visible wear on them at all. But a German engine, even Volkswagen's own 2.0L gasser, after 60k miles has obvious wear patterns, is substantially stressed, and sometimes can look quite frightening.

Bottom line is, the timing belt has its advantages and disadvantages. I feel, since I don't see much problems inside the envelope of scheduled PM, the advantages far outweigh the converse. And a TDI, even an ALH, is not that difficult of a job to do by anyone worth his salt. Try hanging a belt on a four-cam double VVT-i Toyota V8! Then bend over for the whopping $1500 repair bill!


My Jetta is nearly 14 years old, it was born in December of 1990. It will be getting its 6th timing belt soon. It costs me about $100 in parts (yes, the old IDI diesels are cheaper than the TDIs), and will take me a couple hours. It has never broken a belt, jumped a tooth, ate a tensioner, or anything at all. In fact, it still runs as good as it did when it was new. If I had bought a '91 Sentra instead, its chain would have been wiped out by 150k miles, and would have taken me about 15 hours to change it out, and a chain/guides/tensioners/gaskets/seals/etc. would have cost me around $350. And I still would have had a Sentra
You do the math. I'll gladly keep my belts.

 

BKmetz

Administrator, Member #10
Staff member
Joined
Sep 25, 1997
Location
Illinois
TDI
2015 Passat, titanium beige, 6MT
First I apologize for taking this thread off topic with MB trivia. Here is the straight dope on MB timing chains.

Yes, you can change the chain by attaching the new one and fishing it around, but that does not get any sprockets or guides. The labor time to install a chain on an old MB 617 diesel is on the order of 40 hours!
I think you're off by about a factor of 10. 4 to 5 hours is normal shop time to change a timing chain on an OM617.xx engine. MB timing chains DO wear out, but only if one neglects oil changes and the chain tensioner. Here is a picture of a failed MB timing chain.



Now if you want to talk about a timing chain nightmare, 40 hours shop time might be about right to change out a timing chain on a MB V-12 gasoline engine. That chain is around 10 feet long and the whole front of the engine has to be removed as the new chain cannot be attatched to the old one and snaked around.






Here are the links to whole gallery:

MB V-12 timing chain page 1

MB V-12 timing chain page 2

MB V-12 timing chain page 3

Brian, 97 Passat TDI and an 85 300D with a OM617.95
 

Copyman

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Location
Jax Florida
TDI
2000 Golf Silver
VOLKSTECH 445 Tresca Rd Jacksonville, FL 32225 (904) 724-7525
I had my timing belt changed there on my 2k golf. The mechanic was the lead TDI mech. at Tom Bush VW but got fed up w/bs.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
This thread has gone off topic, but let me add:

Straight out of the labor guide a 300SD timing chain is 10.5 hours, and yes, that is less than 40, but many MB chains are in the 20 to 30 hour labor range, with some as high as 37.5 hours.

Labor on any TDI is obviously much, much less.
 

wrenching40plus

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Sparkle City, SC 29306
TDI
Jetta 2000 (given to bro-in-law)
...off topic with MB trivia. Here is the straight dope on MB timing chains...
I second the thanks for the great pix!! Now I've gotta invite my computer-hating Benz buddy to the house to see them. It will cost me all the beer in my fridge, but the guy is great company -- it will be fun to look at the images and hear his reaction. Maybe I can talk him into getting a computer and joining TDIclub
 

TateG

Active member
Joined
Jul 25, 2004
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
2000 Jetta, blue
Copyman, what did Volkstech charge you? I will be needing a new belt soon and don't trust the dealership here in Tallahassee as far as I could throw the building.
 

samiam

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 28, 2001
Location
Texas
TDI
A4,2001.5, red
40 hrs?

I think you guy are confusing Chain replacement with chain, sprocket and guid-rail replacements. I can do a 617 engine in 2-3 hrs fora chain. Not a big deal.

I think VW really screwed up when they hired the porsche 944/928 engineer whom decided running the WP of the belt was good idea.

Oh as for my experience in it- the VW vs MB, I spend the same on tools... VW I spent $350 for belt, pump etc.. MB last chain I purchased from the dealer was $65. My A4 took me several more hours than the MB.

I'd guess chain failure rate is much lower accross all cars than TBs.

Michael
 

Copyman

Active member
Joined
Jun 19, 2003
Location
Jax Florida
TDI
2000 Golf Silver
I believe it was around $500 using the new style belt and tensioner and a new serpentine belt.
 
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