Symptoms of cam failure

Jnitrofish said:

Can't be more ambiguous than that. I read it as maximum fuel pressure meaning the higher of those two numbers.

That VW document pretty much described it too a tee, they actually know how their injectors work.

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Which system which source? Note RISES (from your posted information). Rises not constant.
They do not want others to know all about it though.
++++++++++++++++

If the document had:
Pressure rise by RPM for the tandem Pump
Fill rate for the unit injector body by crank degree and supply pressure
Injection Pressure rise for Moderate acceleration
Injection Pressure rise for WOT
etc.

We might learn more
++++++++++++++++

We find out that a 100HP unit injector body has a limit of injection possible no matter what the tip. This injector body has restrictors and fill orfices to which we have no source of information. So you may look at the document and draw conclusions, but from my standpoint they have given limited information. The information given may lead you to make assumptions that are misleading.

eddif

oilhammer said:

This thread has now been tooefed.

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And so it is written... What happened to moving this conversation elsewhere?

I know I am not intelligent to cover all this. Let me get a link and debate this elsewhere.

eddif

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Doesn't matter much though, our sources are questionable at best and we will never come to a agreement.

From this point let the thread live its normal life or die.

The OP asked for sounds (listen for).

oilhammer said:

You can take the valve cover off inside of 2 minutes and check.

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......oil hammer took us to vision under the valve cover.

Lightflyer1 said:

Every oil change done properly still doesn't mean it is okay. They still fail sometimes even if all maintenance was done properly. You should read through some of the cam threads here to find instructions/pictures.

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.....Lightflyer took us to possible bad dealer maintenance

Lightflyer1 said:

It has been said the problem doesn't happen as often in Canada. No way to know if this is true either.

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..... Lightflyer took us to the possible difference in Countries

Bob S. said:

Some think it is heat related and the situation is manifested more in warmer areas.

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.....Bob S took us to the tropics

Jnitrofish said:

Or a thicker oil? 15w-40 perhaps.
Everyone always says a TDI is very good at keeping itself cool, the cooling system is over engineered, but then we come up with concepts that its heat killing the cams down south.

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.....Jnitrofish took us to oil

Henrick said:

Our company cars with mileage reaching as high as 180k-220k miles are all (yes, *all*) of them on original cams. OTOH, that's probably because they all have FVWSH...

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......Hendrick took us to Canada


......eddif took us to design / outer space LOL

oilhammer said:

This thread has now been tooefed.

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..... Never lead us away from the OPs quesion oilhammer. Stay with listen. You know with your lead we will all line up with our pet areas. LOL

eddif

LOL, once eddif starts posting, the thread kinda turns into what looks like a fortune cookie fortune printing machine and a Geely brochure merged together, set on overdrive, and given full throttle...

oilhammer said:

LOL, once eddif starts posting, the thread kinda turns into what looks like a fortune cookie fortune printing machine and a Geely brochure merged together, set on overdrive, and given full throttle...

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'

Thanks for chuckle.

Sage Advice:

tditom said:

... - don't drink & post

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If we could stay on topic it would be great guys

I started it for a reason, and mainly in hopes of learning a few things and than some that just MAY prevent cam failures in the future. In a nut shell, which oil would you guys recommend for this car? I've also been told that it's not a bad idea to add some ZDDP additive in there.

At least when cam wear threads get OT there's always some levity to them...

striker said:

Hey guys,

I'm looking at an extremely well maintained 06 that recently came on my lot I work at. The car has every dealer service stamp since day one showing the oil changes, DSG trans fluid flush, etc.

Is there ANYTHING at all that I can listen for when this thing is idling? I dont know much about diesels so I have no clue what's suppose to sound normal and whats out of whack.

Any advice? The car has 82K miles.

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If you hear BUPPING at idle and light acceleration the cam and followers are shot. Real technical term, but about the only sound description we have come up with. Where I live this would be called buppin no ing on words.

striker said:

If we could stay on topic it would be great guys

I started it for a reason, and mainly in hopes of learning a few things and than some that just MAY prevent cam failures in the future. In a nut shell, which oil would you guys recommend for this car? I've also been told that it's not a bad idea to add some ZDDP additive in there.

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This one starts such a to-do everyone is still hiding (hidin). You probably have a better choice of oils in Canada than we do. Most of us in the States have gone to 5W-40 as a minimum oil viscosity, except in extreme cold. There are a few of us getting brave in the hotter Gulf States and experimenting with higher viscosity oil (experimentin).

eddif

eddif said:

If you hear BUPPING at idle and light acceleration the cam and followers are shot. Real technical term, but about the only sound description we have come up with. Where I live this would be called buppin no ing on words.



This one starts such a to-do everyone is still hiding (hidin). You probably have a better choice of oils in Canada than we do. Most of us in the States have gone to 5W-40 as a minimum oil viscosity, except in extreme cold. There are a few of us getting brave in the hotter Gulf States and experimenting with higher viscosity oil (experimentin).

eddif

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Not familiar with the term buppin but ok. As far as oil, I've been told that Mobile One TDT 5W40 is a very good oil for these motors and the I have it readily available everywhere.

striker said:

Not familiar with the term buppin but ok. As far as oil, I've been told that Mobile One TDT 5W40 is a very good oil for these motors and the I have it readily available everywhere.

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The bupping is a collapsed lifter causing a sound in the intake. Oilhammer gave you the right thing to do.

I ran TDT for 25,000 miles (?) and had no failure. You did hear a little outcry, from some, against it though.

eddif

eddif said:

The bupping is a collapsed lifter causing a sound in the intake. Oilhammer gave you the right thing to do.

I ran TDT for 25,000 miles (?) and had no failure. You did hear a little outcry, from some, against it though.

eddif

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This car has 82K miles and I;m guessing on the original cam? At what mileage did your fails at?

oilhammer said:

LOL, once eddif starts posting, the thread kinda turns into what looks like a fortune cookie fortune printing machine and a Geely brochure merged together, set on overdrive, and given full throttle...

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Wow. Roger that. I just tried to read this thread & it took a serious nose drive at post #24. (btw any Jeff Gordon haters here?)

OP, listen for any signs of DMF chatter at idle.

striker said:

This car has 82K miles and I;m guessing on the original cam? At what mileage did your fails at?

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Mine failed at 101k. The 'bupping' sound is more like a burnt exhaust valve to me. Possibly even a popping sound in the exhaust.

The side (non-wear) edge of the cam lobe near the peak may feel like it has a burr. This seems prevalent on #1 exhaust, but is likely to show up on all 4 exhaust lobes.

Here is a link to my cam story.

The other thing to look for on a DSG equipped car, is a scratching or rattling noise that is only audible on the transmission side of the car, when the car/engine is cold. i.e. first start in the morning. THis is the DMF (dual mass flywheel). On a DSG, it's more like a coupler than a conventional flywheel. But it does have the same mass as a flywheel. Do a search for "DSG DMF"; You'll find plenty of reading.

Tony

Windjammer said:

Wow. Roger that. I just tried to read this thread & it took a serious nose drive at post #24. (btw any Jeff Gordon haters here?)

OP, listen for any signs of DMF chatter at idle.

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Does anyone have a video clip of what this chatter sounds like? I did notice a sound at idle that doesn't seem like it should be there but again, I have ZERO experience with diesels.

TonyJetta said:

Mine failed at 101k. The 'bupping' sound is more like a burnt exhaust valve to me. Possibly even a popping sound in the exhaust.

The side (non-wear) edge of the cam lobe near the peak may feel like it has a burr. This seems prevalent on #1 exhaust, but is likely to show up on all 4 exhaust lobes.

Here is a link to my cam story.

The other thing to look for on a DSG equipped car, is a scratching or rattling noise that is only audible on the transmission side of the car, when the car/engine is cold. i.e. first start in the morning. THis is the DMF (dual mass flywheel). On a DSG, it's more like a coupler than a conventional flywheel. But it does have the same mass as a flywheel. Do a search for "DSG DMF"; You'll find plenty of reading.

Tony

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Does this scratching/rattling noise go away if the car is put in neutral or once it warms up?

striker said:

Does anyone have a video clip of what this chatter sounds like? I did notice a sound at idle that doesn't seem like it should be there but again, I have ZERO experience with diesels.

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Jnitrofish has a pretty good video and recording at:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WVkhLGQOx2s

It takes a partially trained ear to know what you are hearing.

eddif

striker said:

Does this scratching/rattling noise go away if the car is put in neutral or once it warms up?

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it quiets down but won't completely go away at least in my case. some people say it goes away after warm up.

striker said:

Does this scratching/rattling noise go away if the car is put in neutral or once it warms up?

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In my case, it went away once warmed up. As narongc73 said, in some cases it doesn't.

Tony

That sounds very much like it actually. What's the expected life cycle?

striker said:

That sounds very much like it actually. What's the expected life cycle?

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From the day its installed to the day it explodes.

I think I read Sachs expected something like 400k miles, but that was without manufacturing defects. That's why there was updated parts.

Jnitrofish said:

From the day its installed to the day it explodes.

I think I read Sachs expected something like 400k miles, but that was without manufacturing defects. That's why there was updated parts.

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Alright. Is there anything that could be covered by the dealer? Cars got 80K miles and its an 06. If it gets louder I'm gonna take a good guess and say it should be replaced before it explodes?

Henrick said:

Our company cars with mileage reaching as high as 180k-220k miles are all (yes, *all*) of them on original cams. OTOH, that's probably because they all have FVWSH...

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Mine was "fvwsh" Every oil change at 5,000 miles and the cam is worn down at 150,000. ever take the covers off and look? Mine runs great.

As usual: at 80,000 miles US I would suggest a set of lower stock cam bearings, so you may reach 150,000 miles US without a worn cam. IMHO LOL

eddif

eddif said:

As usual: at 80,000 miles US I would suggest a set of lower stock cam bearings, so you may reach 150,000 miles US without a worn cam. IMHO LOL

eddif

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It's at 80K miles right now....so with the replaced lower bearings, what's that giving me extra *roughly? on the life of the cam?

striker said:

It's at 80K miles right now....so with the replaced lower bearings, what's that giving me extra *roughly? on the life of the cam?

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You noticed I suggested, and not everyone.

Here is a picture of a set of lower cam bearings with 100,000 miles US on the top row. This top row has a spot worn to copper and the oil slots starting to be covered by camshaft position (thus decreasing oiling of bearings and followers). It is a BEW and does not directly relate to your engine (but is almost the same, except for the cam running position). The lower row of bearings shows the early wear in stock bearings while you still have plenty of room for oiling (you can ignore the cantilever cuts).


We have evidence of cam bearing wear from 39,000 miles upwards. I am the only one checking cam bearing wear in unfailed cams (that I know of).

The picture helps me avoid 1,000 words, but does not tell me how close your cam is to having the oil slots covered.

I wish others would join in gathering information so I could quote you an estimate.

eddif

Well it definitely beats replacing an entire camshaft that's for sure. I think you mentioned this to me before but just to be clear-I dont have to remove the entire camshaft out of the motor to do this, correct?

striker said:

Well it definitely beats replacing an entire camshaft that's for sure. I think you mentioned this to me before but just to be clear-I dont have to remove the entire camshaft out of the motor to do this, correct?

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I replaced the first set of cam bearings before the original timing belt was replaced. I did not remove the tension from the belt. Just by grace the point the cam stopped allowed me to get the cam bearings out and in place (one at a time with intelligence). At rest the valve springs are pushing the cam up. Multi step process but I did it (doesn't take that long, but it has several steps...like a timing belt replacement). I hope if others try it, they may be able to describe the process better than I can. Parking the cam in the right position has a lot to do with it. I do not think I have ever found that correct place but one time. I do manage to get them in without scratching anything, but the potential is there to ruin something.

I also replaced 35 bearings on a guru replacement belt without slacking off the tensioner. The same original seal is still in place / use.

The belt tensioner can be relaxed and make it easier, but I would suggest all the tools to ensure nothing got out of time.

I think one thing that scares folks is they might damage something in the process. This is true. A trained mechanic could do this better than a first time person, but for some reason peer pressure has defined the eddif bearing replacement as un-reasonable. A mechanic doing 3 a week could get it down to minutes (on a cool engine), but reading on this forum most say it is a waste of money.

What we do now is a gamble. Sit around and wait for failure. A huge number seem to fail by 150,000 miles US. A few 275,000 mile success stories are told over and over. Interstate cars seem to get good results. Slower driven cars in hot areas seem to fail first. There are many factors not just 5. UOA sees a cam fail between tests. Inspection sees failure between VC removals. The eddif suggestion is sometimes seen as the most stupid thought since.........

eddif

Now that the point is made that the bearings can be replaced with the cam in place, I think that mentioning the other way is appropriate.

A mechanic can really get a cam out in no time. Polish the cam bearing journals (not lobes) pop in a new set of lower bearings, seal and get you out in a short time. At cam belt replacement time it would not add many minutes.

The rub comes when you consider it is not an accepted process at this time.

...................................But...................
These processes are accepted:
1...Dual mass flywheel replacement, before failure
2...Balance Shaft modification (gear kit or chainless), before failure
3...Cam belt replacement, before failure
4...Brake pads, before faillure
6...Water pumps, before failure
7...Timing belt tensioners, before failure
8... Alternator one way sprag, before failure
9...etc.

If a mechanic is convinced that a process will not work, will the repair work? The whole issue may be accepting the process.

eddif

Does this look right?

Am I a total noob or...

Well, I do not see the cam shaft bearings in the bill



Prices in CAD.
Should I go for bearing replacement with cam in place?

Thank you
/Sorry for jumping in your thread. Should I remove and repost starting new thread?/

jhs said:

Am I a total noob or...

Well, I do not see the cam shaft bearings in the bill

Prices in CAD.
Should I go for bearing replacement with cam in place?

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Dealer service strikes again. Interesting dilemma Cam bearings sure do not appear to in your parts list.
Does it mean that the dealer installed but did not list and charge for the parts? Unlikely.
Does it mean the cam bearings were not worn so they did not replace them? Not probable? Kind of like taking a shower & putting dirty shorts back on!
Does it mean the dealer screwed up? That's my take. For the cost, and given how recent the work was done, I think I would take it back & request them to redo it, or at minimum, pull a bearing cap & prove that new bearings were installed.