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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

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Old May 11th, 2017, 09:29   #61
kjclow
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I think this thread is going a little overboard. Can we refrain from the conversations of who is the most morally correct and wait to see if the OP gets his issues resolved?
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Old May 11th, 2017, 09:36   #62
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VeeDubTDI View Post

My biggest concern is that this settlement, which many took to be defined and mostly final, has been amorphous and subject to ongoing changes. It no longer seems to matter what was written on paper and agreed on by all parties.

If they're closing loopholes, fine. However, that process needs to be more transparent, agreed on by class council and the defendants and clearly communicated publicly.
Fully agree. There seems to be too much power given (or taken) by some of the process handlers and too little with others. The court order needed stronger wording towards acceptable condition and how to handle red titled vehicles.

Description: When I was growing up in Iowa, a reconditioned totaled car had a declared "red title". This included everything from hail damage, flood damage, to wrecks. Some insurance companies would not insure any vehicle with a red title.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 11:13   #63
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^part of the issue is how different states handle Salvaged/Rebuilt/etc titles, too.

It still was spelled out clearly in the terms, though, and I cannot see how the OP won't get buybacks approved, although it might take a frustrating amount of back and forth.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 13:54   #64
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So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....
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Old May 11th, 2017, 14:44   #65
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtmule View Post
So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....

What will you do next? Just wait it out?
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Old May 11th, 2017, 15:51   #66
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Originally Posted by gtmule View Post
So I'm the same boat as some above. VW definately started slow rolling claims starting in mid-April, and then began rejecting documents shortly after. So far all my salvage titles have either been accepted or at least haven't been rejected from every state but PA and MI. Both of those states put something to the effect of "This vehicle may not be registered using this as the title document". I emailed the class council and got the same reply as posted above. Have sent a follow up email pushing back, as I don't want to appeal with the claims board, since they haven't actually rejected my claim or declared the car ineligible, only rejected documents....
You don't get titles in your own name when you do the buyback? You just use original title with reassignment of ownership?
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Old May 11th, 2017, 17:03   #67
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Thanks to you who have responded with similar experiences​.

It definitely looks like VW is trying to either back out of keeping the Court order, or at least delay the process for salvage/rebuilt title vehicles, to discourage people who may be flipping junkers.

I personally think it's a calculated move from VW, to tie the hands of flippers until the deadline in 2018, at which point they'll end up having to purchase all eligible vehicles.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 17:21   #68
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I haven't been in here since my car was turned-in, but this thread intrigues me.

Unfortunately, I don't think this issue is going to be resolved quickly. It's interesting that it took VW this long to start flagging branded titles. The issue could have been easily resolved upfront with less ambiguous language. Also, VW should not be changing the rules midstream. Perhaps they are simply wanting a more stringent process for reviewing branded titles.

Here is my take on what is most likely going on. Looking at the language in the settlement, the following owners are excluded:

Quote:
(c) Owners whose Volkswagen or Audi 2.0-liter TDI vehicle (i) could not be driven under the power of its own 2.0-liter TDI engine on June 28, 2016, or (ii) had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvage on September 18, 2015, and was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;
Here is the other definition under Operable that applies:
Quote:
“Operable” means a vehicle that can be driven under its own 2.0-liter TDI engine power. A vehicle is not Operable if it had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvaged on September 18, 2015, and was acquired by any person or entity from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015.
Take the first part. Excluded if the title was branded on 9/18/15, meaning the car was rendered totaled prior to the issue being public. You would think if they had written the language to exclude all of these cars, including cars with rebuilt titles, they would have written this as:

"(ii) had a Branded Title of Assembled, Dismantled, Flood, Junk, Rebuilt, Reconstructed, or Salvage on September 18, 2015, OR (iii) was acquired from a junkyard or salvage yard after September 18, 2015;"

But they didn't because I believe the FTC and EPA wanted any cars with rebuilt titles off the road. But if that was case why not just allow rebuilt titles to be eligible but exclude other total loss vehicles?

What about cars totaled after 9/18/15 after the scandal became public? I think the intent of the settlement, knowing that insurance companies would base payments on current blue book values, was to make owners whose cars were a complete loss due to accident, theft, etc whole by allowing them to recover the restitution payment for this event. This at least allowed folks whose cars were totaled after the settlement approval in June 2016, to go two routes, fix the car and make it operable, thus getting the full buyback amount or work with VW and the insurance company and get the insurance reimbursement plus the full restitution amount. Regardless all of these scenarios exclude the AND part of the language regarding buying from a junkyard.

Now the AND part is interesting as opposed to OR. By adding this line to the settlement language, the courts essentially opened a gaping loophole that allowed any car totaled after 9/18/15 to be purchased at salvage yards, auctions, junkyards etc, to be turned in for full buyback regardless of title branding, assuming it moved under its own 2.0L power. It also opened the loophole for cars totaled and purchased from junkyards prior to 9/18/15 to be eligible for the buyback. IMO, the intent of this language was to prevent people from buying cars sitting in junkyards prior to 9/18/15 from being bought up and repaired for the purpose of exploiting the buyback after the scandal was public. But since the courts wanted people who were exposed to the scandal post 9/18/15 to be able to be made whole if their car was totaled, this exclusion didn't apply.

Realistically VW is now trying to perform deeper dives on branded titled cars to ensure they meet the criteria. I believe anyone with a car that was not both totaled prior to 9/18/15 and purchased from a salvage yard after 9/18/15 and is operable will get the full buyback value. By forcing you through the claims board they will essentially ensure you meet the criteria. My guess is they were not doing a deep dive on branded title cars prior to this due to manpower and being overwhelmed. Besides in the initial rush there probably weren't that many branded titled cars being pushed through. Now that things are slowing down, they can spend more time reviewing each case. For anyone trying to do a buyback on a branded title car you are most likely going to need the vehicle's complete history proving it meets the criteria. If you can't show the date the title was branded and its procurement history after 9/18/15, you may be rejected. I recommend anyone in this situation to get as much documentation on the history of the car as possible to present to the claims board. Here is what you will need:

1. If the car title was branded before 9/18/15, provide proof of ownership transfer since the branding. In other words, even if it was purchased from a salvage dealer, show that transaction occurred before 9/18/15.

2. If the car was branded before 9/18/15 and purchased from a salvage dealer after 9/18/15 (I would imagine VW is going to get more liberal about what exactly is a salvage dealer, including auction houses and insurance companies), even if the car is now repaired you most likely will be excluded. Good luck selling your branded title TDI on the open market.

3. If the car title was branded after 9/18/15, provide evidence of the date the title was branded. In this case VW will most likely do 1 of 2 things. Either (a) they will require the car to have a rebuilt title or some other evidence of road worthiness such as current registration (see all the posts about wrecked cars), or (b) will offer to pay the restitution amount only and not execute a full buyback.

Item (b) is defined in the settlement this way, but again leaves a loophole with the wording about transferring title to the insurance company. The settlement does not explicitly address the situation of agreeing to a lower insurance payment and keeping title of the vehicle for yourself. I do not know if by issuing a salvage title if that consitutes "transfer of title to the insurance company." Legally it may.

Quote:
Any owner whose Eligible Vehicle was totaled and who consequently transferred title of his, her, or its vehicle to an insurance company on or after the Opt-Out Deadline, but before the end of the Claim Period, will be entitled to Owner Restitution but not a Buyback payment.
Bottom line, I think VW didn't give a lot of consideration to branded title cars and initially erred on the side of leniency with accepting these for buyback. Legally the loophole is wide open for cars that were totaled prior to 9/18/2015 as long as they were acquired from the "salvage/insurance/auction/wherever" prior to 9/18/2015. It's also wide open for cars branded after 9/18/2015 purchased from anywhere. Where some of you may find yourself screwed is if you purchased a branded vehicle from a salvage dealer after 9/18/15 and the prior owner has already received restitution for that vehicle, under item (b) above. Legally, I'm not sure VW has to pay twice for the same vehicle, even though you may have now made it operable. Good luck figuring that one out. Most likely, that is why the claims board is now getting spooled up.

Last edited by chief poncho; May 11th, 2017 at 17:54.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 18:17   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chief poncho View Post
Now the AND part is interesting as opposed to OR. By adding this line to the settlement language, the courts essentially opened a gaping loophole that allowed any car totaled after 9/18/15 to be purchased at salvage yards,
The courts had nothing to do with it; the agreements were negotiated among the parties.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 18:27   #70
chief poncho
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Technically, you're correct, but the court did review and approve the language, but did not actually add the line.

What are your thoughts on the potential double payment for branded title vehicles? In other words owner 1 totals car after opt-out date, sells back to insurance company, collects insurance check and restitution check from VW. Then owner 2 buys vehicle from insurance auction, does minor repair and submits claim to VW for full buyback. Does owner 2 get the buyback, or did VW meet the terms of the settlement by paying owner 1 their restitution? I think this is an area where flippers late to the game might get burned.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 19:14   #71
gtmule
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Originally Posted by TDIforDays View Post
You don't get titles in your own name when you do the buyback? You just use original title with reassignment of ownership?
Dealer's never get title in their (our) name.
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Old May 11th, 2017, 20:43   #72
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Originally Posted by gtmule View Post
Dealer's never get title in their (our) name.
Absolutely not true.. it depends on your state. My buddy that I buy through is a NJ dealer and he flips the title at DMV in minutes and costs same $10 as a dealer reassignment. I flipped all buyback titles into company name to avoid having to explain reassignments and potential missing info as dealers often don't fill out back of titles 100%
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Old May 12th, 2017, 03:45   #73
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Of the salvage people that have officially been rejected, were any of the rejected cars rebuilt/salvage titled cars that had been fully repaired/inspected and were road-going cars? Or were most of these rejected cars straight 'salvage' certificate cars that have not been rebuilt/inspected/etc. yet?
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Old May 12th, 2017, 04:53   #74
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Also, had an interesting thought for a worst-case scenario, if VW decides to not follow the letter of the settlement and allow salvage titled cars that should be allowed according the agreement. If someone buys the car right now, they have 30 days to opt out. So, if VW does something unethical with rejecting the salvage titled cars, you can sell the car to your wife and have her opt out of the settlement to pursue outside legal action. Just worst case scenario recourse, if everything else is exhausted.
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Old May 12th, 2017, 05:52   #75
740GLE
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maybe368 View Post
Yeah, it would be sweet living on 800 bucks a month, for life ...Mark

Don't confuse SS Disability with SSI suplemental security income.

SSI is federal welfare where eligibility is based on total assets, SS Disability is based off your previous earnings payed into the system.

Many people who feel entitled to the SSD claim they paid into the system so they have every right to it, whole industry of lawyers ready to back them up too. Kinda similar to people reading the VW court documents too.
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