www.tdiclub.com

Economy - Longevity - Performance
The #1 Source of TDI Information on the Web!
Forums Articles Links Meets
Orders TDI Club Cards TDIFest 2016 Gone, but not forgotten VAG-Com List Unit Conversions TDIClub Chat Thank You




Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal

Dieselgate - VW Group Emission Scandal Discussion around the VW Dieselgate Emissions scandal. Details and news updates can be viewed here: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=448336 This forum is a work in progress depending on requirements, usage, etc.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old May 11th, 2017, 06:10   #46
DanB36
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Savannah, GA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythdoc View Post
Apples and oranges comparing the "operable" issue and this activity.
I think it's fairly comparable. VW didn't like getting stripped cars or rolling wrecks back, so the definition of "operable" was changed in the 3-liter settlement to mean (1) not stripped, and (2) roadworthy. Well, people have been trolling the junkyards since the settlement was announced too, but the language in the 3-liter settlement about branded titles is exactly the same as it is in the 2-liter settlement. A car is excluded for the branded title only if the branded title was present on 9/18/15, and the car was sold by a junkyard or salvage yard after 9/18/15. If the title was clean on 9/18/15, and the car only got the branded title after that date, it doesn't fall under that exclusion.

It's an odd exclusion, and I honestly have no idea why it's worded the way it is. But irrespective of why, it is worded that way, people have been taking advantage of it since the beginning, and VW has to know that. So even if this "legal window" was "unanticipated" during the 2-liter settlement negotiations, it was known by the time of the 3-liter settlement negotiations. And in a second settlement agreement released eight months later, they didn't do anything to try to prevent or limit it.
__________________

"DanB36 seems to be always on point." - CT_White_SRT
Sold: 2000 Jetta GLS TDI, Atlantic Blue, 270k miles
Sold to Dieselgate: 2 x 2013 JSW DSG, 1 x 2013 Jetta Sedan DSG
DanB36 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 06:45   #47
Mythdoc
Veteran Member
 
Mythdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Tennessee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfstar View Post
Is it also morally reprehensible to you that people buy junked Hondas, Toyotas, etc, in order to fix them up and put them back on the road, FOR A PROFIT?!?
The horror!
What about people who buy and sell stocks for a living! OMG - what scum! They find market inefficiencies, buying low and selling high. How can they live with themselves!!!
I don't think you work with analogies much. These need work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwM5power View Post
I totally agree with you, after reading through this topic I sense a lot of ENVY from some members who say " you do it for a profit? OMG!" The whole capitalistic society blah blah blah
This is an even better example of poor argumentation based on guilty conscience than the one that I first commented on. Wrap yourself in the flag next, fella...

Quote:
Originally Posted by linux_author View Post
if there are folks that can legally sell back TDIs and reap settlement money, who am i to say whether or not it is 'right'? those folks are putting out their own money and time and effort!
My whole point was that, beyond the laws, it is the job of moral people to decide what is right and what is opportunistically making a second wrong.
__________________
2015 Q5 TDI 13.5K Miles

2011 Touareg TDI 74K Miles (slated for buyback)
Mythdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 07:01   #48
Mythdoc
Veteran Member
 
Mythdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Tennessee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB36 View Post
I think it's fairly comparable. VW didn't like getting stripped cars or rolling wrecks back, so the definition of "operable" was changed in the 3-liter settlement to mean (1) not stripped, and (2) roadworthy. Well, people have been trolling the junkyards since the settlement was announced too, but the language in the 3-liter settlement about branded titles is exactly the same as it is in the 2-liter settlement. A car is excluded for the branded title only if the branded title was present on 9/18/15, and the car was sold by a junkyard or salvage yard after 9/18/15. If the title was clean on 9/18/15, and the car only got the branded title after that date, it doesn't fall under that exclusion.

It's an odd exclusion, and I honestly have no idea why it's worded the way it is. But irrespective of why, it is worded that way, people have been taking advantage of it since the beginning, and VW has to know that. So even if this "legal window" was "unanticipated" during the 2-liter settlement negotiations, it was known by the time of the 3-liter settlement negotiations. And in a second settlement agreement released eight months later, they didn't do anything to try to prevent or limit it.
Dan, I am happy to concede your point that this action could have been expressly prohibited in the second (3.0) settlement. Why it wasn't prohibited is not completely clear. From the EPA's point of view, one can argue it was because they wanted to keep non-conforming cars from polluting, however they might make it to the road. There was no national news story on the scale of the Jalopnik stripped VW story. Maybe VW didn't fight for an exclusion of junkyard cars in part because they didn't want to promote more activity of this kind. The thing is, we just don't know. My main point has been a bit different. I think the whole affair invited folks to turn off their moral compasses. There's nothing like being wronged to create a propensity to do wrong.
__________________
2015 Q5 TDI 13.5K Miles

2011 Touareg TDI 74K Miles (slated for buyback)
Mythdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 07:32   #49
duratitus
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Watertown NY
Default

Well I think it's wrong for our government to make Volkswagen destroy perfectly fine cars, thereby making unknown amounts of pollution to recycle them and make new ones.

The whole thing is a crying shame, if you want my honest opinion.

I'm wondering if anyone is still getting their claims processed in the last week or two? - I personally know 6 other TDI owners who have claims paperwork submitted, and all of them have not seen any movement in their claims portal since 2-3 weeks ago.
duratitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 07:46   #50
duratitus
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Watertown NY
Default

IMO VW should have just had to pay individual owners a restitution payment, and let the cars stay on the road the remainder of their lives. This would have no doubt been the most environmentally friendly way to reduce emissions, and repay owners for the fraudulent advertising.

The fact that this is not what happened makes me believe that the whole lawsuit was more about money that concern about the environment.

I respect you for not trying to profit from the whole settlement, but I don't think you are in the right place to accuse others of doing something morally wrong by profiting from the settlement just because your conscience would bother you if did so.

If VWhad been ordered to give you more money than you thought they should have to give, would have you rejected the extra funds?
duratitus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 07:50   #51
kjclow
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Charlotte, NC
Fuel Economy: 55 max / 44 avg on beetle ~37 on JSW
Default

IMHO, the whole lawsuit, stop sales crap, and the buyback are more about punishing VWAG for sneaking one past the EPA and CARB and then not confessing when originally caught.

If I had the time, knowledge, and place to work on cars, I would have joined these ranks. I even considered picking up a JSW I saw for sale at a price below the buyback amount I should be getting for mine. Cash flow did not allow it though.
__________________
2010 silver/black JSW TDI with DSG, 2011 red Golf TDI with dsg, 2003 red/gray Passat 1.8l gasser
kjclow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:07   #52
ujames
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: USA
TDI(s): YES
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by DanB36 View Post
I think it's fairly comparable. VW didn't like getting stripped cars or rolling wrecks back, so the definition of "operable" was changed in the 3-liter settlement to mean (1) not stripped, and (2) roadworthy. Well, people have been trolling the junkyards since the settlement was announced too, but the language in the 3-liter settlement about branded titles is exactly the same as it is in the 2-liter settlement. A car is excluded for the branded title only if the branded title was present on 9/18/15, and the car was sold by a junkyard or salvage yard after 9/18/15. If the title was clean on 9/18/15, and the car only got the branded title after that date, it doesn't fall under that exclusion.
It's an odd exclusion, and I honestly have no idea why it's worded the way it is. But irrespective of why, it is worded that way, people have been taking advantage of it since the beginning, and VW has to know that. So even if this "legal window" was "unanticipated" during the 2-liter settlement negotiations, it was known by the time of the 3-liter settlement negotiations. And in a second settlement agreement released eight months later, they didn't do anything to try to prevent or limit it.
The word "AND" you've highlighted is the key word. Interestingly, that word was changed to "OR" in the Canadian settlement agreement which makes a big difference. It appears VW is trying to uphold that change in agreement for US claims.
Quote:
O. CAN I RECEIVE BENEFITS IF MY CAR IS NOT OPERABLE?
In order for eligible Settlement Class Members to receive a Buyback, Trade-In or
Approved Emissions Modification under the Settlement, their Eligible Vehicle must be
operable—i.e., can be driven under the power of its own 2.0L TDI engine—when brought
in to a Volkswagen or Audi dealership to participate in the settlement program. A vehicle
is not considered operable if, among other reasons, it had a branded title of “Dismantled”,
“Junk”, “Salvage” or “Mechanically Unfit” on September 18, 2015, or was acquired from
a junkyard or salvage yard on or after September 18, 2015.
Excerpt from PAGE 13
ujames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:10   #53
bmwM5power
Veteran Member
 
bmwM5power's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Rochester NY
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratitus View Post
I respect you for not trying to profit from the whole settlement, but I don't think you are in the right place to accuse others of doing something morally wrong by profiting from the settlement just because your conscience would bother you if did so.

If VWhad been ordered to give you more money than you thought they should have to give, would have you rejected the extra funds?
.
IMO Mythdoc is the one with the " guilty conscience " , this word dominates almost his every post, just get it over with bud. Mythdoc IMHO it was not morally right to buy the TDI for you in the first place and pollute the environment, then take advantage of the settlement and got more money for your car than you would have ever gotten otherwise.
bmwM5power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:17   #54
ujames
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: USA
TDI(s): YES
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by duratitus View Post
I'm wondering if anyone is still getting their claims processed in the last week or two? - I personally know 6 other TDI owners who have claims paperwork submitted, and all of them have not seen any movement in their claims portal since 2-3 weeks ago.
Last offer received mid April. Since then, no additional offers. Only progress since this point in time are for some claims to get through doc approval. However, once approved several approvals have been reversed and the titles have become "rejected" again. Explanation given is that a clean title needs to be submitted as proper documentation.

I've escalated to the Legal Council @ LCHB and their response to me is below. I'm a bit disappointed they're not offering more support.

Quote:
My update on this is that you are going to have to go through the Claims Review Committee review process, the decision on your car is final at this point. The Review process is still being developed by the Court and the members of the committee. More information on the process will be forthcoming in the months ahead but for now simply send one email detailing why you disagree with the eligibility determination on this vehicle.

Last edited by ujames; May 11th, 2017 at 08:31.
ujames is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:36   #55
Mythdoc
Veteran Member
 
Mythdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Tennessee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwM5power View Post
IMO Mythdoc is the one with the " guilty conscience " , this word dominates almost his every post, just get it over with bud. Mythdoc IMHO it was not morally right to buy the TDI for you in the first place and pollute the environment, then take advantage of the settlement and got more money for your car than you would have ever gotten otherwise.
You missed the boat on me, big time. But nice try with the "that describes you, but what am I?" game.

But here, let me ask you something. Business A has a strict, written policy on employee use of business property, whereas Business B does not. Worker X works for both companies. She takes pencils home from Business A, directly violating her employment terms. She takes Business B's company car out on weekends for the 450 mile round trip to see her grandmother, not a business use, but not violating her employment terms as written. She excuses herself for this action, because she doesn't like the way Business B has treated their employees.

Are you going to argue that her actions are wrong with respect to Business A, but not with respect to Business B, simply because she is following the agreement as written? Or, do you think, as I do, that she has not committed any meaningful offense to Business A, but has in fact done wrong to Business B? How do you know this? Is it because you are supposed to have an inner sense of what is right?

Maybe I am taking the trouble to write this reply to you because I still have some belief that you will be open to a reasonable exchange of views.
__________________
2015 Q5 TDI 13.5K Miles

2011 Touareg TDI 74K Miles (slated for buyback)
Mythdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:40   #56
Mythdoc
Veteran Member
 
Mythdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Tennessee
Default

^^OP: thanks for keeping to the high ground, when I wasn't making it easy to do so. I don't agree with your choice, but I can tell that you have thought and are still thinking about the issues presented. Aloha
__________________
2015 Q5 TDI 13.5K Miles

2011 Touareg TDI 74K Miles (slated for buyback)
Mythdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:41   #57
surfstar
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: SB, CA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mythdoc View Post
Maybe I am taking the trouble to write this reply to you because I still have some belief that you will be open to a reasonable exchange of views.
Reasonably, what is wrong with people making some extra money buying and selling VWs? Again, how is that different than finding an under priced Honda and flipping it? Or is making any money morally reprehensible to you?

By-the-way, you wouldn't happen to be posting to an online forum from work, would you?
surfstar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:49   #58
psd1
Veteran Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: OR
Fuel Economy: See Fuelly link
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by ujames View Post
Last offer received mid April. Since then, no additional offers. Only progress since this point in time are for some claims to get through doc approval. However, once approved several approvals have been reversed and the titles have become "rejected" again. Explanation given is that a clean title needs to be submitted as proper documentation.

I've escalated to the Legal Council @ LCHB and their response to me is below. I'm a bit disappointed they're not offering more support.
Ugh, please keep us advised. I have one Salvage Titled Touareg.
__________________

psd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 08:54   #59
Mythdoc
Veteran Member
 
Mythdoc's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Tennessee
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by surfstar View Post
Reasonably, what is wrong with people making some extra money buying and selling VWs? Again, how is that different than finding an under priced Honda and flipping it? Or is making any money morally reprehensible to you?
By-the-way, you wouldn't happen to be posting to an online forum from work, would you?
To your second question: no, I am not, heh, but I wouldn't consider it much of a fault if you were. You are helping me make my point, see?

First question: of course making money is not reprehensible, that's a silly takeaway from my comments. We have been talking about exploiting loopholes, and the scale of what is done in these loopholes, do you not see that?
__________________
2015 Q5 TDI 13.5K Miles

2011 Touareg TDI 74K Miles (slated for buyback)
Mythdoc is offline   Reply With Quote
Old May 11th, 2017, 09:03   #60
VeeDubTDI
Good Ol' Boy
TDIClub Enthusiast
 
VeeDubTDI's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: Springfield, VA
Fuel Economy: see signature
Default

Let's stop bickering about morality and focus our discussion on the unofficial change from and to or in Volkswagen's buyback process. I think ujames and DanB36 have honed in on what's happening here and I think it's worth bringing to the forefront of discussion.

My biggest concern is that this settlement, which many took to be defined and mostly final, has been amorphous and subject to ongoing changes. It no longer seems to matter what was written on paper and agreed on by all parties.

If they're closing loopholes, fine. However, that process needs to be more transparent, agreed on by class council and the defendants and clearly communicated publicly.
__________________


Trusted TDI Mechanics Map || TDIClub Chat
VeeDubTDI is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
salvage titles sooner Ontario 5 June 1st, 2011 21:38
CLEAN CLEAN 02 VW Jetta GLS TDI Silver w/black leather interior ctd2001 TDI Cars for Sale/Wanted 7 July 14th, 2009 18:51
link titles runonbeer TDIClub and TDIClub Forum News, Issues, Problems and Suggestions 2 January 31st, 2006 20:28
Titles kabatc TDIClub and TDIClub Forum News, Issues, Problems and Suggestions 1 September 4th, 2004 20:43
LOOK AT YOUR TITLES. LMIST1 VW MKIV-A4 TDIs (VE and PD) 23 September 3rd, 2002 16:01


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 16:54.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright - TDIClub Online LTD - 2017
Contact Us | Privacy Statement | Forum Rules | Disclaimer
TDIClub Online Ltd (TDIClub.com) is not affiliated with the VWoA or VWAG and is supported by contributions from viewers like you.
© 1996 - 2017, All Rights Reserved
Page generated in 0.09377 seconds with 11 queries
[Output: 145.80 Kb. compressed to 124.13 Kb. by saving 21.67 Kb. (14.86%)]