Injector pump not leaking... pouring!

"the sound heard was probably the shaft seal?"

No, I think the piston drive tang moved out of its index slot, as I tightened the head. The head seemed slightly biased and did not want to line up perfectly as I advanced the two screws...so I figured the addition of two more screws (all four corners now) would help compress the springs evenly. I feel the "fragile" piston probably snapped from being in a bind, but the drive elements were also broken. I probably should scrap most of this pump, because I'm not confident crack detection methods will find all the stressed zones. The pump must have locked (broke)the belt instantly. The car had sat for a week, and the hydraulic valve actuators were drained...did not pump up. Removing the camshaft and applying 80lbs compressed air via the glowplug ports, all cylinders held this pressure with no sound of air escaping out the intakes or the exhausts! The cam and rubbing points on the inserts are shiny, no stress gouging, so I'm going to find another pump and run it till it blows......probably run it this winter, then major it next spring.

Thanks for the great clarification, wh

corrado tdi said:

http://www.dieselgeek.com/TDI_Injection_Pump_Head_Seal_Replacement.htm

These instructions will change as new information becomes available. Please don't print these instructions for future reference as any changes will not be there when you goto change your seal. I'm completely open to any revisions to make the procedure clearer or easier to understand.

Click to expand...

i followed this procedure lastnight and feel i need to thank you guys for thinking outside the box on this one. changing the pump head oring would have been a lot more difficult without this writeup.

couple notes to anyone considering attempting this though: when they say stop as soon as you see the whole oring groove, STOP. i had -maybe- 1/32" more. that combined with how much the pump head can move around when it is pulled out this much resulted in one of the camplate rollers falling out of place. it was pretty clear something was wrong, as soon as i went to tighten the pump head back to it's original position it required what i felt was too much torque to proceed. no biggie though, i just removed the quantity adjuster section and popped it back into place (fortunately it was one of the uppermost rollers).

the other note was that if you are doing the upper section gaskets at the same time, it would be easier to get to the fuel shutoff valve and the pump head in general if the quantity adjuster section is left off. stuff some clean paper towels into the hole left behind to keep dirt out.


anyway, thanks again for the great writeup... in my opinion, when more of these things start leaking this will become one of the most valuable resources on the site.


Justin Arnold

wrench hound said:

No, I think the piston drive tang moved out of its index slot, as I tightened the head. The head seemed slightly biased and did not want to line up perfectly as I advanced the two screws...so I figured the addition of two more screws (all four corners now) would help compress the springs evenly. I feel the "fragile" piston probably snapped from being in a bind, but the drive elements were also broken.

Click to expand...

on mine, when the roller dropped out of place, it angled the plate that drives them pretty heavily.. this easily could have snapped the shaft if i had kept cranking on it. i experienced the exact same thingas you, with the head biased, or angled, and the torque on the 2 opposing bolts far too uneven. taking off the QA body made it pretty clear what happened.



sorry for the double post people, only trying to help.

Don't be sorry; I feel sure that you have provided critical information for those
of us who are less experienced, or even for the experienced ones! Thanks bloc; Larry

woohoo! Another successfull o-ring replacement.

Armed with Jim's and Runonbeer's instructions and pics, and one of Jim's Viton o-rings, I proceeded to Osidak's in North Carolina and he (I helped a little) successfully replaced the o-ring. Great job, Omar!

No more leak... everything working perfectly. Thanks for this great instructional write up guys. Who knows what would have happened if we didn't have this valuable resource.

One thing... it takes some courage to convince yourself that you can stretch that o-ring over the distributor block without tearing it or otherwise damaging it.

My tip to others is to put it over the duct-taped surface of the bottom of the distributor block first then stretch it over the top. Then just roll it off of the distr. block so that it can snap into position on the flange.

Thanks again guys!

Mel

Golfstream,

I added the bit about putting the o-ring on the bottom of the pump first and then stretching it over the top of the pump head.

I'm also glad the procedure is helping out and thanks for the good words!

I added a 6mm x 55mm screw to the list of tools for the pump head o-ring procedure. Use of this screw prevents the possible disengagement of the internal drive mechanism. I added the screw to the Viton pump head o-ring kit on my website. I now only recommend that everyone do the procedure while using the 55mm long screw.

See post #72 below...

I doubt the pump head being out that far by itself is what let the roller drop out in my case, and think it was more how much the pump head could wobble around. I'm working on an AHU and with the big coolant hose running right next to the pump, it was quite difficult to work the oring onto the duct tape without really moving the pump head around in the process. In this respect I feel the A4 cars would be easier to work on.

So even if you only backed the pump head out far enough to see the oring, make sure you leave it as stationary as possible, and above all, if you notice -any- uneven resistance when you start to tighten the bolts back in, dont keep turning on those screws. They should all pull down evenly.

Justin

woohoo! Another successfull o-ring replacement.

Click to expand...

Make that two more. no hitches whatsoever. took about 30 minutes.

Jim and Rob
Great write up. If I may I would do 2 other things. Before putting the new o-ring over the head I would heat it up a bit. The other is I have found if you use the little cup that comes with the mity vac and pul 3-5 cup fulls of fuel through it you will have a lot less cracking when you start it. Also I use the big return line fitting instead of the little one. But if you do use it make sure its hooked up to the injector or plug the small fitting. I know it does not make much sence but if I don't do it I will have to crank it a lot longer to start. All this is food for thought and in no way trying to take away from what you have done.

Greg

Thanks Greg

bloc said:

I doubt the pump head being out that far by itself is what let the roller drop out in my case, and think it was more how much the pump head could wobble around. I'm working on an AHU and with the big coolant hose running right next to the pump, it was quite difficult to work the oring onto the duct tape without really moving the pump head around in the process. In this respect I feel the A4 cars would be easier to work on.

So even if you only backed the pump head out far enough to see the oring, make sure you leave it as stationary as possible, and above all, if you notice -any- uneven resistance when you start to tighten the bolts back in, dont keep turning on those screws. They should all pull down evenly.

Justin

Click to expand...

I did a lot of tinkering today and what I found was that you can use a 6mm x 55mm socket head screw (Allen) or hex cap screw to be the last screw standing before you put the o-ring over the pump head. (The thread pitch on the screw is 1.0) You snug the 55mm screw into the pump body and it acts to keep the pump head from rocking when you stretch the o-ring into place AND it also only allows the pump head to come out just far enough to get the new seal in and no farther. Using the 55mm screw eliminates the chances of disengaging the plunger drive mechanism while performing this procedure.

I went one step further and slid a 1.5" length of a tight fitting plastic soda straw over the shank of the 55mm bolt and butted it up to the head of the bolt. This soda straw did two things; it was a shim to further reduce rocking of the pump head and second, it protected the new o-ring from the threads of the 55mm screw after you dropped it into the pump head groove. There was no need for the Teflon wrapping of the last screw if you use a soda straw-wrapped 55mm screw. I have added the 6mm x 55mm screws to my pump seal kit for those of you who can't find one. They should be pretty easy to find at a specialty hardware or fastener store.

Here's a picture of the screw:



Here's a picture of running the screw in on a bench-mounted pump. That little lithium Skil screwdriver is really nice!:



Here's a pic of the 55mm screw and the exposed o-ring. The blue is the soda straw sheath to protect the new o-ring:



The procedure to replace the timing belt-side front seal is at post #76.

Don't fear the seeper

runonbeer said:

Don't fear the seeper

Click to expand...

The seasons sure don't. Neither do the wind, the sun or the rain.

corrado tdi said:

I did a lot of tinkering today...

I went one step further and slid a 1.5" length of a tight fitting plastic soda straw...

Click to expand...

I think it goes without saying how much everyone appreciates all of this. What may not be apparent is what an asset you and runonbeer are to this community.

Makes me proud to be a part of it.

Justin

Front seal change details!

runonbeer said:

Thanks Greg

Click to expand...

Well, thanks to LanduytG I got the lowdown on removing the ALH engine pump front hub and being able to re-index it to TDC after a front seal change. Thanks!

Here is a pic of the ALH TDC mark on the pump body (in yellow) and how it lines up with the keyway when the pump pin is in and the pump is at TDC:


I wasn't comfortable with such an imprecise location for TDC so I got out my drill and drilled into the pump hub to find the elusive keyway. I also tightened a Passat 1.8T flywheel bolt in the side access hole to force the pump shaft to stay at TDC (the bolt under the drill chuck). I didn't use too much torque.



The drill bit glided easily through the pump hub and hit the edge of the pump shaft keyway since these pumps do not have woodruff keys. The drill put a lovely little mark in the edge of the keyway so that I could realign the pump hub after I removed it and replaced the front seal. Here's a picture of a Schley Products Type 1 VW crankshaft/camshaft timing gear puller ($60ish) in action on the pump hub. (make sure you loosen the hub nut first) I had to use a valve adjustment shim disc as a spacer for the puller since it's jackscrew wasn't quite long enough. The pump hubs are very tight!:



Once the hub is popped off you get perfect access to the seal. The seal is 31mmOD x 20mmID x 7.3mm thick. This one happened to be Kaco brand seal and is the same front seal that the Cummins Dodge diesels use. I'm working on getting them. In the picture below you can see the drill bit scar on the edge of the keyway. This is a perfect mark to allow you to make sure that the hub goes back on the same way it came off. Don't be squeamish about drilling a sight hole in the pump hub. It won't hurt a thing! Just make sure you are drilling inline with the yellow mark in the first pic and the 8mm hole in the pump hub closest to the yellow mark (Like the second pic.).



In this picture you can also see another TDC mark in the aluminum right next to the seal.

Of course there is a Bosch tool to extract the seal but as I do not have one I used the screw method of seal extraction. The screw method has its risks. To do this, I drilled the metal-backed seal with three small, equally-spaced holes around the seal.



I then screwed in a screw into one of the holes and tried to pull out the seal. I had to use the two other holes before the seal would move.



If you use this method be very careful with the drill as a slip can damage the sealing surface. The alternative to changing this seal is to take the pump to a Bosch diesel service center for the seal replacement. I have heard that $100 is a ballpark figure for this service. My local shop would charge $65 plus labor to change the seal if I brought the pump to them with the hub removed.

Jim, can I borrow thy balls sometime?

So I take it that when you're pulling the front seal out the keyway wanders a bit, so you put the flywheel bolt as a means of realigning the keyway and TDC marks?

Fortuna Wolf said:

...So I take it that when you're pulling the front seal out the keyway wanders a bit, so you put the flywheel bolt as a means of realigning the keyway and TDC marks?

Click to expand...

I used a Passat 1.8T flywheel bolt to hold the drive shaft in place. You first set the pump to TDC with the Metalnerd pump pin and then tighten the M10 x 1.0 threaded flywheel bolt to keep the drive shaft from turning when you pull the pump hub. The secondary check for TDC in case the shaft DOES turn is the drill mark on the pump shaft that you make when you drill through the hub. You just look through the drill hole in the pump hub to see where your drill cut into the drive shaft.

Marking the relative position between body of pump and qty adjuster "middle" section

I have had several phone calls this week from fellow tdiclub members asking about the safety of changing the middle seal on the injection pump. They seem to to be concerned about their ability to get the quantity adjuster back to its original position after the seal change. As you may know, the quantity adjuster needs to be put back in the same place as it was originally before the seal change since fuel delivery is dependent upon it's position. If you replace the seal and bolt the qty adjuster down in a different spot you run a risk of either low power or at worst, a runaway engine.

I got to thinking about this and I came up with what I think is a fool-proof way to return the quantity adjuster "middle" section back to the exact place it was before you remove it to swap seals. Pardon me if the procedure seems inelegant.

First, clean the union of the pump where the two parts mate (see pics below). Use a spray solvent such as brake cleaner as this leaves no residue. A toothbrush helps to dislodge any build up of fuel residue and dirt. After letting the solvent evaporate for 20 minutes or so, mix up some two part epoxy such as JB Weld on a clean piece of cardboard:



Apply the epoxy to a corner of the quantity adjuster wher it meets the body of the pump:



Smooth the epoxy out with your finger if you like:



Apply a glob to the second corner:



Smooth it out:



Do the next corner:



And the last:



Let the epoxy set overnight to harden sufficiently. The next day (after you loosen the four screws) tap the fuel union nut upwards with a hammer on the non-timing belt side of the pump to crack the epoxy bond:



The quantity adjuster will break free of the epoxy:



You can then lift the qty adjuster straight up and wipe off the sealing surface of the body of the pump and the underside of the quantity adjuster and replace the middle seal. Be careful to keep any loose pieces of epoxy out of the pump (if any). When you put the quantity adjuster back onto the body of the pump you will have four separate areas of cracked epoxy to line back up. This makes it very easy to put the quantity adjuster back exactly where it was before the procedure. The epoxy will still allow for "hammer mod" fuel quantity adjustments as those movements are very small.

When you remove the quantity adjuster section there is absolutely nothing that will fall out. The only thing that you have to make sure of when you put the quantity adjuster back on is that there is a metal ring down inside the pump. This metal ring has a hole in it that the tip of the quantity adjuster has to reengage and this pic shows both the ring and the tip of the quantity adjuster:

Bump for new information^^^

You sir, deserve a jigger of scotch.

Thanks for the additional info Jim. Especially regarding the shaft seal. Let us know if you manage to find a source for some of those seals. I know of three cars in my area that all are leaking in this area, and I would be looking to pick up three seal kits from you if you find them.

Thanks again!

Chris

Chris, where have you been getting your diesel in MN?

tango_28 said:

Chris, where have you been getting your diesel in MN?

Click to expand...

A group of us here in Northfield have a BioD buyers club. We get the fuel delivered from Farm Country Coop in Wanamingo. Two of the vehicles that have the most miles on B100 have started to leak some around the shaft seal whenever we have to switch back to DinoD. A third is starting to show some signs of leaking around the other seals.....

Here's a link to our buyers club info.

http://renewnorthfield.org/?page_id=69

Chris

I check around the IP and found no leaks. I was kind of getting worried there for a moment because I haven't use power service for the last time I filled up.

Jim and Rob, thank you for the writeups on the seal replacements. You take care of us TDIers very well!

Dove into the VE pump on the 1Z Passat tonight. If not for y'all, this pump would have been off to the rebuild shop.

Top seal was easy, and I put a new fuel temp sensor in place while doing this replacment. Why have to open it up again if it goes bad? They're cheap. Besides, it's got 218K on it, so it deserves replacement. I was amazed at how clean the inside of the pump was.

Did the pump head O-ring also. No problems, but sweated every minute of the job. Went flawlessly. Was a bit concerned about the pressure needed to screw the head back in place, but realized it was just the spring pressure. One update suggestion for the 1Z instructions. You can't get a 24mm wrench in place to tighten the shut-off solenoid when the wire bracket on front is in place.

I wasn't able to get the pump fully primed by the fuel return line nipple. No biggie. Hooked the mity-vac up to the pump return line I removed from the thermostatic T. Worked like a charm.

Working up the courage to do the middle seal. Another day when I have more time.

Bruce

Did the pump head O-ring also. No problems, but sweated every minute of the job. Went flawlessly. Was a bit concerned about the pressure needed to screw the head back in place, but realized it was just the spring pressure. One update suggestion for the 1Z instructions. You can't get a 24mm wrench in place to tighten the shut-off solenoid when the wire bracket on front is in place.

Click to expand...

I did this job this past weekend and was just barely able to get that 24mm in there but was lucky because the solenoid cinched up within the narrow range of motion that I had, I was very close to not making it and having to pull that plate back off...

So, remember to put the shut-off solenoid back on when the pump is in "service position".

I changed the wording on my procedure page to reflect the difference between the AHU/1Z and the ALH. Basically it states that you have to remove the harness bracket again after the four Torx screws are fully tightened in order to reinstall the shutoff solenoid. The reason for this is that the front black Torx screws are slightly too long to be fully tightened into the pump without the brackets in place. Also, I want everyone to tighten all four Torx screws evenly to pull the pump head in evenly. Removing the single Torx screw and wiring bracket again for the solenoid reinstall is no biggie. Lemme know if this makes sense.

Did the seal at the distributor end (driver's side) replacement this past weekend. Nice write-up guys! No more leaks.

Now to deal with my alternator, which I think is shot from all the diesel leaking onto it.

You shouldn't be drilling into the pump/hub. To align the hub simply line up the axis of the pumpshaft as shown below with the timing pin inserted into the alignment hole in the front of the case. Snug up the nut, then remove the pin and hold the hub and burp it tight with an impact. I also use red locktight on the nut. Complete final torque with torque wrench, while holding hub with special tool or pipe wrench.

Good write-up guys. I also recommend looking at the black magnetic ring on the underside QA. If it is fuzzy with metal shavings, full dissassembly and rebuild is recommended. When sliding surfaces penetrate/wear thru the surface hardness, the parent material is very soft and erodes quickly.

Jeff