FOR THE EXPERTS (.216s w/ a chip.)

"If you are starting with an A4 5-speed manual with Upsolute or Wetterauer chip, don't even think about 0.216 injectors unless you're prepared for internal engine work to lower compression, a slightly larger turbo (but not too much!) such as a VNT17, custom intercooler, upgraded clutch, upgraded final drive, better oil cooling, custom ECU programming to deal with all the issues that will occur. This will cost thousands of dollars to get right. Long term durability under high load conditions is not likely to be very good."

Do I really have to do these? Or are these suggestions done to maximize the performance of the .216s? If I just did the VAG-COM EGr mod (or the DG race pipe), change the idle injection quantity, the-1 vnt adjustment, clutch upgrade. would that be enough? What could I get away with installing .216s? Is anyone running .216s w/ a chip?

I am planning on getting .205s but was just wondering if I really need to do all the upgrades/modifications if i did (hypothetically) get .216s.

Also, I don't drive like an as*hole either, just want the power if I ever decide to drive like one (when ricey cars want to step up to the plate an show off)

Just a question from a fellow TDIer who wants a higher powered TDI.

BTW, GoFaster, I am not questioning your FAQ revisions, just curious as to why you can't do the same mods to the .216s, as you would the .205s. I value your opinion a lot just like I value many others' on these forums.

[ December 06, 2002, 14:38: Message edited by: STRANGETDI ]

Yes, you really have to do all the other things to make it work. If you don't want to do all the other stuff then FORGET IT. Chip plus those injectors delivers WAY WAY too much fuel to the engine for the amount of air that you can get in, unless you do a TON of other stuff.

When I got my 216's I left the chip in for a week or so to see what would happen. Spent a good portion of that week in "limp mode", spent much of the rest driving around with the engine shuddering like a gasoline engine with 3 loose sparkplug wires, and on the rare occasion when it felt like running, it belched HUGE clouds of smoke - and that was with 20 psi boost pressure, more than the safe limit with stock compression - and it slipped the clutch. The only solution was to go back to the stock chip and tweak the boost pressure (and several ECU settings). That's what I have now, and it works fine and runs properly.

Over in Europe, diesel des is running 0.216 injectors and a chip ... but he's got a different turbo, lowered compression ratio, HUGE intercooler, oil cooler, custom programming, better clutch, better final drive ... all the stuff I said you have to do. (And keep in mind that he cracked a piston after about 80,000 km with this setup.)

Think about it this way. You need 24 - 26 psi boost pressure with good intercooling to make this work. (That's what diesel des says, and based on my experience, it sounds about right.) That's about 2.7 pressure ratio, which is off the scale of the compressor map of the VNT15 - ok, so we need a new turbo. OK, so suppose we do that. Now, peak design cylinder pressure in these engines is 155 bar. The adventuresome folks in Europe were reporting leaking head gaskets at what I figure was around 180 - 190 bar, and a certain somebody who I'm not naming bent all four connecting rods at what I figure was in the 230 - 240 bar range.

The VW race TDI has lowered compression, stronger rods, reinforced pistons, 185 bar design peak cylinder pressure. And that was a race vehicle which is not intended to go 500,000 kilometers before a rebuild. You don't wanna push 185 bar cylinder pressure without the appropriate reinforced components.

With stock compression you're stuck with 18 psi boost pressure (actually, 2200 millibar absolute manifold pressure) if you don't want to exceed the design limits of the engine.

You're probably going to hear from folks who say they've run X boost pressure for however long, and haven't had any problems. Fine, but you are taking your chances. For a vehicle that is going to be a street-driven daily driver, you don't want to build a grenade with the pin pulled.

The VW TDI-R tech paper stresses very strongly that you want to get all the fuel into the cylinder from 16 degrees before TDC until 20 degrees after TDC. That's what you have available. Chip with stock injectors goes beyond that - but it's OK, because there are large safety margins in the stock setup. Chip with 205 injectors sort-of works (but it wouldn't surprise me if this setup would cause a turbo meltdown if you did an extended top-speed test with it). Bigger injectors with stock chip stays within the allowable injection window. The TDI-R uses HUGE injectors with basically stock injection timing and duration - that's how they control cylinder pressure, exhaust temperature, and exhaust smoke.

My setup is not intended to set horsepower records, but it's sufficient. I did it this way because I tow a trailer with my car, and I don't want to belch huge clouds of smoke (and it doesn't!), I don't want a bleeding-edge setup. Too risky.

One other thing. I have 0.216's, stock chip, boost at 17 psi, EGR reduced, IQ at 6.4 mg/stroke, opened-up exhaust system. I know of another Passat TDI that has 0.205's, Upsolute chip, boost at 20 psi, EGR reduced, IQ around 5 mg/stroke, opened-up exhaust system (tdimeister, are ya listenin?). In terms of power, there isn't much to choose between them. If anything, his is a LITTLE bit faster, but the difference is not much (we haven't done dyno testing yet). But mine smokes less and I'm not working the turbo as hard nor the con-rods as hard (less boost pressure).

By the way, mine just sailed through its "Drive Clean" test yesterday.

I have chip, .205 11mm and never had any issue with power loss, shudder, and smoke is controled by the right foot. I see no problem with all chip and .216 or (11mm and .216s no chip). Out of all combinations (11m and .216s should give a more ideal injection window, less ideal boost map) of course it is the most expensive, unless you all ready have an automatic. Of course run dawns device.

I agree with GoFaster, these mods are not for the meek. I have a spare motor and clutch, never used it but it is on hot standby.

Go Faster and Oldman,
Right now i have a WETT chip, BMC air filter, snow guards removed and a 2.5" Supersprint Catback exhaust.
What is the next step i should do to get more power and still have reliabilty. Or is this the point of no return where if i go over this line, the reliability really falls off.
Also, GO Faster where can you recommend a speed shop that knows how to modify TDIs in the Toronto and surrounding area? Do you know and trust these guys?
I'm not the type that goes nut all over the place, in fact i dog it most of the time but i want to know that i have the power if i need it and when i want to have some fun. But i do want to keep this car for a long time and if those mods will definitely bring down reliability, then i'll leave it as is.
Cary

If you're OK with what you have, leave it alone! There's no sense going beyond what you normally use.

If you go ANY further, you should budget for a new (better) clutch. That will be the first thing you exceed the capacity of. (Note, I didn't say put it in, I said budget for it. Some stock clutches work, some don't. Better to have the budget and not need it, than need it and not have it.)

0.205 injectors is the next step. You have to do some ECU and boost control tweaks - as described in the TDIFAQ.

The only speed shop that I know in Toronto that I trust with doing this stuff ... is my driveway with me doing the work (but I don't do clutches). Installing injectors is NOT HARD, about an hour start to finish to do right. But you have to do the other stuff that the TDIFAQ says to do.

Note oldman's comment about 11mm/chip/0.205's: "smoke is controlled by the right foot". Indeed, that's true even of the chip/0.216 setup, but it's not what I wanted ... I want minimal smoke with pedal to the metal. As noted previously, horsepower records aren't what I'm interested in for a street vehicle.

P.S. On damp salted roads with winter tires with the current setup, I cannot even approach pedal-down in second gear without getting wheelspin. Forget about first gear, that's hopeless. Sometimes it'll break loose in third. That's sufficient most of the time.

My current combination is Wett 1.23 bar chip, .205 OEM injectors, 2.5" downpipe/exhaust, PiperX and I have very, very little smoke, even at WOT.... I had someone behind me and he was suprised at how little smoke I'm pushing.... Considerably less than .205 injectors and Upsolute. I'm getting ready to test Kerma .216 nozzle (week or so)... They may smoke a bit more... That just means I have room for more Nitrous (grin)..

Gary M

please report on down pipe, does this have Cat? So with this 18.5 PSI chip, does it spike? Are you tweaking the VNT or dawns?

Downpipe - Tectonics tuning... No cat...

Spike on gauge never exceeds 19.5.

Stock VNT and no dawes.

Gary M

[ December 07, 2002, 19:03: Message edited by: Gary Miyakawa ]

gary, do you have a 5 speed or auto, stock clutch?LOL.

How do you like the 1.2 wett chip compared to the standard .9? Ive been afraid to try it with my wimpy '02 sachs clutch.

Lightman,

Stock clutch,

Give the chip a try, you will mostly see a change in the high rpms...

Gary M

Gary ,wett still is still not offering the modded 205 chip are you still testing for them? I like the fact that they are keeping the boost spike below 19.5 without the dawes device.

I have driven Oldman's Jetta and it is simply fast. When you put your right foot into it it raises up in the front and acts like the engine is about to jump out of the hood! It would outrun my Corrado( the way it used to be!), no problem. Made me kinda mad. So, I vowed to take care of the discrepancy between his car and mine by figuring out how to get an 11mm pump on my A3 motor. While it aint cheap, the 11mm is really an effective way to up the power without excessive smoke and neither mine nor Oldman's car smoke excessively. In fact, my car smokes less now than when it had only an Upsolute chip. (I'm currently running 11mm, .205, 2.5" exhaust with no chip on an A3 TDI engine.) I'd like to try a little less aggresive chip with this combo to get an acceptable amount of smoke. My mileage has improved about 2mpg with the big pump and injectors (originally seemed like three mpgs).

Jim
dieselgeek.com

This is great stuff, i've been on a steep learning curve on this injector mod.
Right now i have WETT chip, BMC air filter and exhaust, this is suppose to bring my horse power to 115-120 and torque to 190-195 ft. lbs., have never dyno tested though. My clutch is slipping now, so i will be putting in a performance clutch in the next month or so.
How much improvement over my current setup would i get if i take out WETT chip and put back in my STOCK chip. Change my pump to the 11mm pump and put in the .205 injectors. I would put back in my stock chip as this would seem to be the safer route because of the injection timing and extra turbo boost of the WETT chip. Of course the necessary adjustments would have to be done.
Horsepower wise and torque wise, what realistic figure are we looking at? And how would this affect reliability. I'm hoping this would be a safer mod than just the WETT or UP chip as the injection timing is cut back to stock and the boost would be cut back as well.
Just wouldn't want to do this mod and it brings me back to the same as a WETT or UP chip.
I appreciate your experienced inputs.
Cary

Originally posted by Birdman:
Gary ,wett still is still not offering the modded 205 chip are you still testing for them? I like the fact that they are keeping the boost spike below 19.5 without the dawes device.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Depending on the model year, I believe they are testing (not me) a version...

I was very pleased to see the boost spike held to 19.5 with the Wett chips.... Takes one concern off the mind...

Gary M

The Corrado will always be nicer and better handling vs a Jetta, I can only hope that one day VW will make a Corrado PD 4 vavle 175 HP TDI 6 speed. I'd be down to the dealer in a flash.

Cary if you alread have a chip, you can do 11mm and dawns device. Change the belt to the 80K belt.

Oldman ,
Are you suggesting i should change to a 11 mm pump, keep my WETT chip, stock injectors and Dawes device. Or is that just the easiest thing to do right now with the least amount of fiddling around?. Wouldn't it be better to put in the .205 injectors as well as 11 mm pump, go back to STOCK chip and of course add the Dawes device. A lot more work but is this a better and more reliable setup?
Just trying to figure what's best overall.
Cary

Thanks for the comments guys. I guess I will go w/ the .205s. It just sounds safer in terms of reliability and better on my wallet.

I believe the version of the Wett chip that Gary is trying IS NOT the commercially available version that you have (but I could be wrong about that).

What the best setup is, taking into account the cost-effectiveness of doing it, depends on what you are doing with the vehicle.

If you do your racing a quarter mile at a time then you can get away with a LOT more than if you run extended periods of high load (e.g. trailer towing, or - worse - extended top-speed tests).

Extreme example, you can get 5000 HP from a Hemi V8 but it will only last 6 seconds, and that's all it needs to last for a top fuel drag racing application. You cannot use that same engine in the same state of tune to finish a 24-hour endurance race at LeMans. If you want it to run at full power continuously then the limit is much less!

If your vehicle is going to be doing some serious hauling for long periods then the closer you can keep it to that stock 36mm injection window the better off you are in terms of smoke and exhaust temperature. The ultimate setup that stays within that constraint is stock chip, 11mm pump / 0.216 injectors / custom boost control and sensor tweaks to get 18 psi boost pressure with no spikes. Unfortunately, that 11mm pump is a bit on the spendy side ...

North American conditions don't generally permit full load and high speed for long periods of time, except if you are towing a trailer, so this opens up some flexibility as long as your driving shows some restraint.

I believe the version of the Wett chip that Gary is trying IS NOT the commercially available version that you have (but I could be wrong about that).

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">As stated, I'm running the 1.23 bar chip for the '98 NB TDI... You just need to call Kelly at Wett and ask (that's what I did)... She has this chip for some of the TDIs.. (not all)...

Gary M

GO Faster,
As you quoted,
_________________________________________________
If your vehicle is going to be doing some serious hauling for long periods then the closer you can keep it to that stock 36mm injection window the better off you are in terms of smoke and exhaust temperature. The ultimate setup that stays within that constraint is stock chip, 11mm pump / 0.216 injectors / custom boost control and sensor tweaks to get 18 psi boost pressure with no spikes. Unfortunately, that 11mm pump is a bit on the spendy side ...
_______________________________________________

Thanks for the explanation, makes a lot of sense. This is right on track for what i'm looking for
You are right about my WETT chip, it is just the standard version that i got, not the type that Gary M. has.
With the setup that you described as ultimate, what horsepower and torque figures are we looking at? This is route that i would like to take but i would go one step safer and put in the .205 injectors instead of the .216, what would be the approximate horsepower and torque if i went this route?
Cary

I think Gary has some dyno plots w/ various injector sizes. Maybe he will post it for us again.

also look into down pipe, cat back, and that neat full intake system ( ya know the blue one that cost $$$$). Getting in the max cool air and the least back pressure are in part power mods, but more importantly they are longevity/ safety mods.

Of course this thread would turn into a money no object, what can be done in terms of HP and keep up very good reliability. Say 140 HP can be done, no problem, and if the chip tune is really tweaked for 11mm and .216s maybe 150 HP. Remember that internal pressure is related to torque and that these higher HP numbers are far up on the HP curve and down on the torque curve, so really to get the HP just keep the torque down in the mid range and the motor should stay together. Mind you this is not the maximum power of the setup, just the max 100,000 to 200,000 power, with stock CR, stock turbo, stock intercooler. Max power with a low torque high rpm TDI is probably more limited by the CR of the motor, along with the stock turbo and intercooler.

What fun, I'm driving my car with the Dawns, and the oldman rubber suspension for / aft, I think what a great car.

[ December 08, 2002, 21:42: Message edited by: Oldman ]

The folks talking about 11mm pump with the bigger injectors are absolutely right, by the way: if you crank up the injection pressure you can get away with injecting more fuel before the smoke situation gets unacceptable. Also the A4's are better than the A3's and B4's as far as smoking goes (don't know why - pistons are supposed to be the same shape). The main issue is the cost ...

If I had the opportunity to build an A4 monster, I'd probably go 11mm / 0.216 / stock chip / adjust the VNT / Dawes device / EGR adapted / MAP sensor tweak to bump up the boost a bit.

Originally posted by Oldman:

Of course this thread would turn into a money no object, what can be done in terms of HP and keep up very good reliability. Say 140 HP can be done, no problem, and if the chip tune is really tweaked for 11mm and .216s maybe 150 HP.

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">aren't you running 156hp, oldman? so what magic dust are you using?

Davin, when my car was set up to run just shy of 140 whp (and dynoed that) I had a shootout with Oldman out in the desert to see just who was the baddest of the bad in the heart of Texas. He repeatedly walked away from me, to the point I did a Roberto Duran. i.e. No Mas! No Mas! Hey, maybe it was my MAS? Or my Bio mix made me weak.
Hey Oldman, ready for a rematch???
Well, I will be soon. The new vnt-17 just arrived at my friends in Heidelburg, and he called to let me know he's mailing it later today!! Woohoo!!

So Davin, think about it, if I was pulling nearly 140 to the wheels and getting beat pretty handily, what do you think Oldman has to be doing?
The only dust being thrown around the way I see it, is what the Oldman is laying down on all the naysayers.

Oldman,
It would be nice to know how you acheive you 156 HP. What exactly are your mods.
Mind you, i won't be doing them as i don't have a spare engine laying around like you do but it sounds like you have a killer motor.
Cary

Were you doing standing start runs or on the move? An experienced racer can make a big difference, you know...

I think the 156HP is border line, blow the engine, dyno gives lot less stress than racing and lugging for that matter. Really to go above 150 HP and live, may or may not be doable with 19.5 CR and 18.5 PSI of boost. I feel that a new turbo, new intercooler and 18.5 CR would need to be installed and get the boost upto say 22 PSI sustained. Much greater HP can be found. But probably not more torque, as we are already at the engine block limit. The HP has to be found and in the 3000+ rpm range where the torque is falling.

I think there is data out there that shows 11mm and .205s can hold the HP even to redline, I'm sure .216s will do even better, then .240s, all the way up to .260s which VW uses. Keep the window small, keep the pressure up, and put in BIG holes, add boost, use engine controls to keep low and mid range torque level, as this is what is going to kill the motor, not RPM. kind of simple when you get down to it?

Almost like working on N2O gasser motors.

DZLJET is the street fighting king, the man is near infamous. I've heard that ricers pull off the road and hide when he is around. Putting the smack down to the heathen hordes. He is almost a Knights Templar of the TDI.

[ December 09, 2002, 10:42: Message edited by: Oldman ]

Originally posted by Cary G:
GO Faster,
As you quoted,
_________________________________________________
If your vehicle is going to be doing some serious hauling for long periods then the closer you can keep it to that stock 36mm injection window the better off you are in terms of smoke and exhaust temperature. The ultimate setup that stays within that constraint is stock chip, 11mm pump / 0.216 injectors / custom boost control and sensor tweaks to get 18 psi boost pressure with no spikes. Unfortunately, that 11mm pump is a bit on the spendy side ...
_______________________________________________

Thanks for the explanation, makes a lot of sense. This is right on track for what i'm looking for
You are right about my WETT chip, it is just the standard version that i got, not the type that Gary M. has.
With the setup that you described as ultimate, what horsepower and torque figures are we looking at? This is route that i would like to take but i would go one step safer and put in the .205 injectors instead of the .216, what would be the approximate horsepower and torque if i went this route?
Cary

Click to expand...

<font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Nobody's done it, but I would take a guess that the 11mm pump with 0.216 injectors and STOCK injection timing and duration, with the boost pressure bumped up to 18 psi and no more (this requires some trickery involving the MAP sensor in order to achieve it) will put it in the 135 - 140 hp range.

If you don't want to take it right to the bleeding edge, save your $$ on that injector pump and use the stock 10mm one with the 0.216 injectors and stock chip. This is pretty close to what I have and it won't be much different in power from 11mm/0.205 but less expensive to achieve. Worse emissions, perhaps, but good enough to pass emission tests (mine does); if that was your number one concern you would be leaving it stock anyway. You should be okay with stock A4 boost pressure but you might need VNT tweakage and/or Dawes device (but the same is true of ANY of these hot-rod setups that go beyond "stage one" ...)