Timing drops down by itself early 1Z

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
Mongler98 said:
Lets say you have a cam that is worth well over $1,000 in just machine work...
But he doesn't have a cam worth $1,000. He has one that's worth $85 (or $165 since you replace the lifters along with the cam). There is no reason to mess with taking the spring out of the seal and messing with it since a new cam seal is only $4.

There is plenty of space to move the seal. Here is one that leaked slightly, moving it got the original user another 60,0000 miles without a leak.



And this cam has had the seal moved 3 times before I took it out for replacement.




Mongler98 said:
until you spend the $45 on a new belt and recheck with vcds your just wasting time. you know you have a leak, belt is probably stretched, if its not than you will know by changing the belt, which you need to do anyways at this point to go further. any other work will cost WAY more, start there.
I disagree here. Checking the static timing will show you if your crank sprocket is moving or is it's just belt stretch. THIS is the first thing you should do since it will determine which one is happening. At the very least you need to change the IP shaft seal, which is not rocket science. My recommendation is to check the static timing, then proceed whether or not you need to change the crank sprocket and bolt.

This is what I have for a crank counterhold tool, and it's plenty beefy enough to do the job. At $35, it's well worth the money.

Here is what it will look like if the crank is moving. This car did very much the same as described, low power, smoke, and harder starting. I've fixed quite a few of these since it's a common problem. Only one needed to be redone 120,000 miles later, but it was because it was pretty messed up under the crank sprocket.

Crank is in time...




Cam and IP are not...




Mongler98 said:
your going to need to send that pump to someone who is qualified to do the repairs, some people have rebuilt them but its very difficult due to some parts. if you have ever read up on how to change the head oring you will know what im talking about here. you could have it rebuilt or just upgrade it now for not much more. go with a 11mm pump head, some better parts on a 10mm body unless your looking to make big power then your going to a 11 body with upgraded head or 12mm head but thats WAY far out there in the world of tdi mods. If you take it apart yourself be prepared to have a backup plan on sending it to someone once you realize it might be past your level of skill.
It's a simple seal that has no special tricks to it, and is only $20. The top, QA, and head seals are more difficult, but if you can follow directions and do your own timing belt, you can change them. I've changed them in parking lots for people before without a problem. A VCDS is a necessity but it sounds like you have that covered.

And unless you're willing to spend gobs of money for a lot more power, forget about everything 11mm related. If the pump runs fine but leaks a little, then I'd change the seals and call it a day. Having someone knowledgeable around always helps with anything.
 
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ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
The mainshaft seal is easy to replace. I used to dig these types of seals out, with a modified flathead screwdriver, or just knocked it out if the IP (or whatever) was fully disassembled.

I recently purchased Lisle 58430, and holy crap... cake walk! I always tear the entire IP down, to reseal, but I wanted to try it with the rest of the pump insitu.

-Todd
 

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I have the same tool and love it. I haven't used it in some time because I stopped doing most TDI side work. Prior to picking it up I used packing pullers for pumps. I've also used the Sheetrock screw method with mixed results.
 

Steve Addy

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Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I have the same tool and love it. I haven't used it in some time because I stopped doing most TDI side work. Prior to picking it up I used packing pullers for pumps. I've also used the Sheetrock screw method with mixed results.
I've used the sheetrock screw method before it's ok but I worry about damage from the points. In a pinch however it will work.

Steve
 

Andreas1989

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Location
Norway
TDI
Golf MK3 1995 1Z
Thanks a million Abacus for your very informative post it really helps a lot :)
I will see over all this soon for sure, i was very relieved when i saw that this seal is not very difficult to replace :-D
I can really notice a big difference in drive-ability and cold-start now that my timing is so low. It runs smooth and perfect half warm now when the ECU asks for more timing then it doe's when fully warm. Shaking under acceleration is gone half warm(but comes back when warm), so my old girl really loves all of the fuel + high timings goes very good half warm :-D
 

Mongler98

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Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
your telling me that the belt does not need to be changed regardless of oil or diesel exposure? I cant abide by that
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
your telling me that the belt does not need to be changed regardless of oil or diesel exposure? I cant abide by that
I don't think anyone said that you don't need to replace the belt, but the leak needs to be identified and resolved before bothering to replace the belt. Clearly there's some leaking at the IP shaft seal. If that's the only leak then replacing the seal and timing belt at the same time would be fine.

The other problem though is with the change in timing and the source of that problem needs to be addressed. If it is in fact the crank sprocket moving around then it will also need to be fixed, and preferably at the same time as the pump seal and belt replacement.

Steve
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I don't have much heartburn about fuel or oil on the belt. I'm pretty confident they use a compatible rubber because of the nature of the application and its locataion and it's the fibers that determine the length not the rubber.

Granted if the rubber deteriorates the belt will get loose.
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
I don't have much heartburn about fuel or oil on the belt. I'm pretty confident they use a compatible rubber because of the nature of the application and its location and it's the fibers that determine the length not the rubber.

Granted if the rubber deteriorates the belt will get loose.
I would like to have some supporting evidence and documentation on this. VW is notorious for doing bad things to engines for no good reason. Case in point, look at the VR6 and the timing chain issue. Supposed to be a life time chain, only good for 150K miles. costs 3,600 in repairs to do the job on my Euro Van. I take no chance when it comes to parts like this. not saying the tdi is junk, just saying vw tends to make bad part choices for things that are engine critical. its a $45.00 part, and takes 30-45 minutes to change it, done it 4 times now, dont ask why lol, 1st was maintenance time, 2nd was right after due to oil seal failure at 10 miles in on the vacuum idle pully had to take 2 rings off the spring because the pully will not clear to set the oil seal out a tiny bit (this is where i learned the trick BTW for the first time) 3rd was on head gasket change due to a failure of a NEW OEM roller (idler) whatever that roller is between the cam and the IP, 4th was to replace after i figured out that they stretch over time enough to be an issue for my high power build. yea oil and fuel makes them swell up enough to go out of time. Had a bad fuel line right at the cover, had to change the belt. i compared it to the new one and to the one i took off as a spare when the roller died. in loop form, was 1.5 teeth off. cut both belts at the valley of a tooth and was about 2.5-3 teeth LONGER due to fuel hitting it. this is the same belt i always get from GAP. Then again im making more power than ever but i dont think this is causing the issue. the belt was swollen and a tiny bit sticky too
 
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KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Still, for the repairs the need to be made and the low price, it's best to just replace it.
I'm not suggesting he not replace it since it's coming off. Just saying I wouldn't worry about a little fuel or oil getting on the belt.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
Conti was the first brand that came to mind. Per their site they use polychloroprene.

From polymerdatabase.com:
Chloroprene (Neoprene®, CR)

Neoprene is another widely used elastomer in the sealing industry. It is an unique elastomer in having often acceptable or good resistance to both petroleum lubricants/fuels and oxygen/ozone. It is one of the few rubbers that are self-extinguishing. However, chloroprene tends to harden over time and degrades in the presence of some fairly common chemicals such as hydrochloric acid, acetone, xylene, chlorinated solvents, acetic acid, and hydrogen peroxide. Its mechanical properties are generally inferior to those of natural rubber but it has superior chemical resistance.
Common uses of Neoprene seals include refrigeration, freon/air conditioning, and engine coolants among many other applications.
 

Mongler98

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Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
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98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
well then, new information is well used. What would have caused a timing belt to grow almost 3 teeth over 10K miles? all that was on it was diesel fuel i did not catch and it had been sitting all summer with some fuel on it, did not run for 1 year and just sat around with fuel on the belt, the mileage was put on before i parked it. every belt was the same, from German auto parts.com and thats Original equipment Continental/Contitech brand.
 

Andreas1989

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Location
Norway
TDI
Golf MK3 1995 1Z
Still, for the repairs the need to be made and the low price, it's best to just replace it.

Totally agree with you, i will change the timing belt when i do the job :)

Do you know what NM i should use on the crank shaft bolt?
I think i most likely have to tighten it more then it is now(about 90nm now if i don't remember wrong).
 

Windex

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Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
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05 B5V 01E FRF
66 lb ft + 90 degrees. Lightly oiled threads and head.

You will need to make or obtain a tool to hold the crank.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
I hope you are planning to remove the sprocket to inspect?

It seems that you may be thinking of only retorquing it.

If it is moving it must be removed and the crankshaft end inspected.

If it has been moving the crank end is probably ok and you only need a new sprocket and bollt.
 

Andreas1989

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Location
Norway
TDI
Golf MK3 1995 1Z
Yes i am planning to take it of when i anyway have the timing belt of :)

Thanks for the tightening torque Windex :)

Is it very visible if it is moving?

I replaced the sprocket and the bolt when i did the timing belt last time.

I did not inspect the crankshaft end very good, how should it look when its OK and not OK?
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
The problem would not have been that you did not inspect it. Rather that you didn't torque it properly.

If the sprocket was moving you will see damage to the sprocket. The recess will not be "D" shaped as it should be.

Usually the crank is ok. The sprocket wears because it is softer material.

The new sprocket should fit with very little discernible play.
 
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Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
As to making your own crank holding tool, it's pretty easy and doesn't have to be neat, but does have to be strong. The stronger the better and make sure you get some grade 12.9 bolts to use as the 8.8's won't quite cut it.






The bar was made from a 3/16" angle bar and the pipe was a heavy wall electrical conduit sleeved inside a metal water pipe. They were both straight when we started.



This is the tool I use now, and I love it.




I found the new sprocket actually fit with more play than I thought but it went away as it was torqued. The sprocket is tapered at the edges so it'll self center. I found there to be about a tooth-width of play before the bolt is tightened at all.




This crank needed a little touch up on the top edge because it started to deform. I did so very slightly with a fine file.




This is a crank snout I had to clean up.



All I did was insert a cutoff disk with the old crank bolt and a few washers (that were checked to make sure they were flat using a piece of glass). Put the washers over the bolt and then the disk, thread onto the crank and turn by hand. Remove often to make sure it's only polishing the end and not removing a ton of material. It should be polishing the end evenly. I've seen some with quite a but of corrosion on them, making it so the new sprocket doesn't sit flush.



Good luck.
 

Andreas1989

Well-known member
Joined
Sep 18, 2012
Location
Norway
TDI
Golf MK3 1995 1Z
Thanks a ton Abacus you just provided me with all of the remaining information that i needed, much appreciated :)
I fell comfortable doing this whole operation my self now :)
 
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