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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > TDI Model Specific Discussions Areas > VW Passat Family (NMS and B7) TDIs (2012+)

VW Passat Family (NMS and B7) TDIs (2012+) Discussion area for the 2012+ Passat TDI (North American and rest of world versions versions). The North American model was previously codenamed NMS (New Midsize Sedan) and the version the rest of the world gets is sometimes referred to as B7.

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Old August 14th, 2011, 01:59   #1081
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what skoda uses Eolys?

Don't forget that Citroen is PSA, Fiat have shared panel vans and MPVs with PSA, and Volvo and Ford use the joint-venture engines.

But I'm not convinced the current generation of cars still use it. You can however get an additive from Wynn's with the cerium in it...
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Old August 14th, 2011, 10:24   #1082
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Yes, please enlighten me. I'd like to know too.

edit: http://vehicle-engineer.com/Sections...word3=chemical
Quote:
Additive based diesel particulate Filter
Initially, PSA in a joint development with Rhodia equipped passenger cars with A-DPF. Now, SUV and Heavy Duty vehicles benefit from the technology. Improvements made to the system and therefore to the performance of the Eolys™ additive have enabled a reduction in on-board volume. With second generation Eolys™, launched in 2002, the additive tank required refilling every 140,000 km (87,500 miles). Third generation Eolys™, currently being launched, enables a maintenance-free system with only 1.5 litres on-board for a range exceeding 250,000 km (155,000 miles).

The PSA/Rhodia A-DPF system is a closed system, able to reduce diesel particulate to a degree of 99.9 per cent. PSA (Peugeot-Citroen) as a major manufacturer of diesel engines adopted this system in 2001. Manufacturers sourcing diesel engines from PSA, such as Ford, Mazda, Volvo, Mitsubishi, Fiat vans, and BMW for their diesel powered Mini, are also using the Rhodia A-DPF system.

After more than 6 years’ practical experience and with more than 2.5 million vehicles on the road - with zero recalls - the Additive-based Diesel Particulate Filter (A-DPF) with Rhodia’s Eolys™ technology has demonstrated its efficiency, robustness and durability under all driving conditions.

It is clear that the closed A-DPF system differs from open retrofit particulate filters. In the Netherlands the Ministry of Environment began a programme on September 12, 2006 subsidising the fitting of diesel particulate filters on older diesel engines. According to the latest statistics, more than 32,000 have been fitted. Volvo was the first in free fitting these open retrofit filters passing the 11,614 mark. Volkswagen overtook them with 14,744 retrofits. The subsidy of € 500 to € 1,500 - according to the size of the engine - is cashed by the fitter. Open retrofit diesel particulate filters as fitted in this programme have been tested by the Dutch technical institute TNO. It was found that a reduction of particulate emission was achieved between 20 and 55 per cent, 44 per cent on average. In many cases this reduction is sufficient to allow access to city zones where only Euro IV engines qualify.

Mr Steinmetz points out that Rhodia needs their A-DPF system to be integrated in the total engine control which involves more engineering than just fitting a filter in the exhaust pipe. More space is required, as well as a higher price. In addition to the passenger car market, Eolys™ technology has proved its value in the retrofitting of light, medium and heavy-duty vehicles. These applications are particularly demanding in respect of cost, durability and performance, as well as under severe thermal management conditions. Rhodia’s Eolys™ is not only used in retrofit applications for buses, delivery and commercial vehicles but also in off-road applications such as construction machinery, forklift trucks and generators. Importantly, Rhodia is actively involved in urban vehicle retrofit partnerships with many cities in France, Germany, Switzerland, China, Korea and Japan. In these cases the unit price of € 3,000 – € 6,000 is paying off because of the almost 100 per cent elimination of diesel particulate emissions. Also engineering and finding space under the bonnet is less of a problem.

This development is currently ongoing for Euro V applications with SUV, utility and heavy-duty vehicle manufacturers. The advantages offered by A-DPF technology are key to these applications. A-DPF ensures optimum performance under all driving conditions, motorway or urban, and requires very limited fuel consumption, compared to 3 to 5% for other technologies. Moreover, A-DPF technology is completely transparent for the driver and passengers: the system requires neither intervention by the driver nor a change in driving style. Currently there is no equivalent available in the marketplace.

Heavy-duty applications will also benefit from the advantages offered by A-DPF technology for DPF-DeNOx combinations. Due to its outstanding performance, this technology offers wide integration flexibility in these two emissions control systems (DPF located upstream or downstream of a De-NOx catalyst), which constitutes a key element in current US and future European emission standards. Mr. Steinmetz mentioned that Rhodia supplies up to half of all coating of 3-way catalysts.
Seems like the use of the Eolys-based systems outside of PSA engines is found in (aftermarket) retrofits. I'm sure our German friends will have an earful to say about how successful the retrofit program has been....
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Old August 14th, 2011, 11:36   #1083
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Quote:
Originally Posted by German_1er_diesel View Post
Since adblue does not do anything about particulates, I'm pretty sure it still needs to regenerate.
The adblue reduces the amount of EGR that is needed (both adblue and EGR are to reduce NOx emissions, and the EGR CAUSES higher particulate emissions), and thus does reduce the production of particulates. It doesn't, however, eliminate it altogether, so the DPF and regens are still needed, but I'll bet not as often.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 12:18   #1084
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jas67 View Post
The adblue reduces the amount of EGR that is needed
Incorrect. Urea fluid consumption is proportional to the engine-out NOx emissions that must be reduced, so it's in the interest of the calibration to generate as little engine-out NOx emissions as possible in the first place, mainly via EGR and injection strategy. EGR and adblue (SCR) complement each other; one does not replace- or diminish the need for the other. Well, more accurately put, EGR complements SCR, but SCR "finishes the job" to bring tailpipe NOx emissions down to levels that EGR alone cannot over all operation conditions. Too little EGR will result in excessive DEF (urea) consumption. Conversely, too much EGR will result in more soot formation, resulting in higher fuel consumption through higher DPF regeneration duty cycles necessary. Here, the tradeoff is to meet pollutant regulations while minimizing the fuel consumption penalty and urea fluid depletion.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread...96#post3462996

The above having being said, research labs are working on entirely different combustion processes with very high EGR rates, even higher than those in current engines (>70%) to achieve SIMULTANEOUSLY NEAR ZERO NOx and particulates, but only within a limited range of operation. The hope is no need for any kind of PM and NOx aftertreatment, but outside these special modes of operation some form of DPF and NOx trap are required. But that's a whole other discussion.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 13:08   #1085
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Originally Posted by TDIMeister View Post
Somewhat more contemporary than the 504/505 generation you might remember stateside...
Oh I know that, but I was just fond of the era when there more diesels offered here, though they were alot slower then.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 15:27   #1086
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DPM View Post
what skoda uses Eolys?


But I'm not convinced the current generation of cars still use it. You can however get an additive from Wynn's with the cerium in it...
It's about half way down, I don't know if they currently use it since this document is from 2006. The fluid is still available from VW and the part# is G 052 143 A2. My local dealer said it's not stocked in the USA, but he can order it. The Peugeot site says they still use the fuel additive.

http://www.skoda.is/Documents/Enviro...TechDevDPF.pdf
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Old August 14th, 2011, 18:21   #1087
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Lug_Nut came over today to see the Passat and take it for a drive. He had some interesting observations, not the least of which was that the ignition key is really only useful for the glove box and the rear seatbacks. It has no other uses. There's no key hole in the door, and of course no ignition lock operated by a key. The question we had was: what if you leave the car locked and the battery goes dead (like it has on me on other cars at the airport when left for a week or three)? How do you get in to pull the hood release to jump the car? Hmmm.

Here's his B5.5 and the Passat together, current and most recent past diesel Passats in NA.

And of course, mileage expert that he is, after his test drive this is what the display read.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 18:30   #1088
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Isn't there a cap that comes off next to the driver's door handle that exposes a key hole?
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Old August 14th, 2011, 18:36   #1089
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Isn't there a cap that comes off next to the driver's door handle that exposes a key hole?
Yup. There's a little slot under that car at the door handle made for the key to pop it off too. Really don't like the idea of having to pry at my paint to unlock the car, but whatevs...
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Old August 14th, 2011, 18:38   #1090
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Key hole? I haven't used a key to unlock a car in at least 8 years..
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Old August 14th, 2011, 19:22   #1091
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Drop your remote in water and you'll be using the key. I'll look for it, didn't know it was there.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 20:08   #1092
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On Golfs the lock cylinder is hidden under a removable cap. I wouldn't like this arrangement, because my JSW has gotten quirky a few times and hasn't unlocked with the remote, so I've had to use the key to get in.

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Old August 14th, 2011, 22:04   #1093
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IndigoBlueWagon View Post
Lug_Nut came over today to see the Passat and take it for a drive. He had some interesting observations, not the least of which was that the ignition key is really only useful for the glove box and the rear seatbacks. It has no other uses. There's no key hole in the door, and of course no ignition lock operated by a key. The question we had was: what if you leave the car locked and the battery goes dead (like it has on me on other cars at the airport when left for a week or three)? How do you get in to pull the hood release to jump the car? Hmmm.

Here's his B5.5 and the Passat together, current and most recent past diesel Passats in NA.

And of course, mileage expert that he is, after his test drive this is what the display read.
Great picture of the two generations, I should've brought over a B4 for the photo op I'll be interested in the final verdict from your crew as to wether or not you think you'll have one in your driveway for keeps.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 23:01   #1094
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What kind of Urea consumption do they say to expect with the new Passat?

Last edited by yamaguy; August 14th, 2011 at 23:18.
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Old August 14th, 2011, 23:24   #1095
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On FTE it looks like the newer 6.7 Fords can see little to no usage of Urea depending on load and driving style. It looks like if you pull a trailer or drive it hard, that use will use more, but if you drive easy it will regen more because you need higher exhaust temps in order to produce the NOx that the Urea takes care of. The trucks are using anywhere from almost none in 6k mi to 5 gallons in 7k mi. Not too bad at $11.99/ 2.5gal

Last edited by yamaguy; August 14th, 2011 at 23:26.
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