Jumped Timing Belt

fisherdanski

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Location
Brighton, MA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta MK4 5S
Hi everyone,

I've been lurking on the forum for about 18 months now and have finally become a member. I only wish my first post had better news. Before I begin - I definitely should have known better.

I bought an 1999.5 MK4 about a year ago from a mechanic who works on VW diesels, and who on occasion buys them and fixes them up. The car had 196,000 on it at the time, and he'd done a full timing belt replacement with a Conti kit. Since then, the car has run alright, though there have been some limp mode issues that he has been sorting out over the past year and very little cost to me. He did an intake cleaning, replaced the vacuum hoses, and the N75 - I picked it up 2 weeks ago, and the car was running great. I put about 400 miles on the car after picking it up, including about 3 miles of Vermont spring muddy road (access road to a friend's house). While driving on that road I could hear grit and dirt pelting the undercarriage, but the car never quite bottomed out. I came very close to getting stuck on one steep part.

Anyway, about 70 miles after the driveway, I felt a little vibration in the car and about 30 miles later, the CEL came on, and the limp mode issues were back. I pulled over to get grab a bite, restarted the car, and while limp mode came back after a few minutes, the vibration was gone. I planned to take the car back to my mechanic ASAP once I got home, so I put about 70 miles on the car driving home, and it sat by my house for the rest of the week until the mechanic would have time to look at it. On the way there, the engine idled rough and then cut out as I was coasting to a light. I got it towed straight to the shop, and the diagnosis is a jumped timing belt.

From what I've read, a jumped timing belt is not something that's supposed to happen after 12,000 miles. My mechanic is saying that I must have driven the car hard in order to do that, but I don't believe him. The car has been in limp mode for the better part of a year, precluding putting my foot to the floor from creating anything more than moderate acceleration. Does anyone have any insights as to whether this is something I could have caused, or whether the installation sounds like it was faulty?
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
The TB doesn't care if you've driven it 'hard' or not.. It's not like there's anymore pressure on the system if you're driving the piss out of it (Regardless of what anyone says)..

You mechanic is full of **** for a lack of a better word. I'd probably find a new one.
 

migbro

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
Well, I can't make the standard comment about always changing the TB on a new-to-you TDI.

Your "mechanic who works on VW diesels" is not to be trusted. He's either incompetent or he cut a few corners when he did the last TB job.

There are a couple of gurus in the Boston area. Tow your car to one of them and you might find out what actually happened.
 

Nismo Silvia

Member
Joined
Apr 9, 2013
Location
Colorado
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI
Ya my car hit valves but I bought it that way.

Well, I can't make the standard comment about always changing the TB on a new-to-you TDI.

Your "mechanic who works on VW diesels" is not to be trusted. He's either incompetent or he cut a few corners when he did the last TB job.

There are a couple of gurus in the Boston area. Tow your car to one of them and you might find out what actually happened.
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
"Must have driven the car hard"

BS

As above, as long as you don't over-rev the engine by selecting too low a gear down hill, there is nothing to be gained or lost by driving it hard. The Timing belt connects the cam and the crank, and is designed to spin at speeds up to red-line. If you drive the daylights out of the car or drive like a grandmother, the stress to the belt is the same. The crank and everything after it (transmission, axles etc) is what gets driven hard, not the belt.

If the belt truly jumped time, then something failed. One of the rollers, the tensioner, the water pump, or one of the bolts (if not replaced), or the belt wasn't tensioned or timed properly in the first place.

There is an off chance that the Injection pump or cam caused the belt to jump, but that would be apparent on inspection.

As above, your mech is coming up with excuses as to why this happened. If you can get him to come clean then great, work with him on the repair, otherwise get the car out of there and to someone who knows what they are doing.
 

csstevej

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 12, 2004
Location
north nj
TDI
2001 golf tdi 4 door auto now a manual, mine, 2000 golf 2 door M/T son's,daughters 98 NB non-TDI 2.0, 2003 TDI NB for next daughter, head repaired and on road,gluten for punishment got another tdi 2001NB,another yellow tdi NB
Your limp mode probably has to do with the turbo, sticky vanes ,bad actuator.
The timing belt " skipping " at the " 12,000 " mile mark makes me suspect that maybe, just maybe the the piston and valves kissed , either when or just before the mechanic did the TB job before you got the car and possible dropped a valve, I hope that I'm wrong.


BTW I drive my car as if it was stolen.
 

KLXD

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 22, 2009
Location
Lompoc, CA
TDI
'98, '2 Jettas
If the belt guards were loose or missing some of that mud might have gotten under the belt. Should be obvious it it happened.
 

fisherdanski

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Location
Brighton, MA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta MK4 5S
Thanks for all the feedback, guys - I really appreciate it. The belt guards were all in place, but the lower engine cover was torn off by a rather large puddle about 6 months ago. I haven't had a chance to look at the belt yet as I was on the way to work and had the tow truck take the car straight to the shop, but I'll head over after work today and see what I see. I'm assuming I'm just looking for mud on or around the belt? If this was just a freak accident I would feel terrible accusing the guy of a botched job.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
With no cover in place it would be easy to damage the lower timing belt cover. Any debris can then get in. I hope you didn't kiss any valves when it slipped.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jan 10, 2004
Location
Barrie, Ont, Canada
TDI
'05 Jetta TDI Wagon
With no cover in place it would be easy to damage the lower timing belt cover. Any debris can then get in. I hope you didn't kiss any valves when it slipped.
I think he's talking about the plastic belly pan, not the lower timing belt cover. No way you rip that off because of a puddle.
 

jettawreck

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Location
Northern Minnesota-55744
TDI
2001 Jetta and 2003 Jetta
With no cover in place it would be easy to damage the lower timing belt cover. Any debris can then get in. I hope you didn't kiss any valves when it slipped.
It's almost certain to have made piston/valve contact, especially with the rough running/stall. It's extremely rare not to smack a few exhaust valves, so don't get your hopes up.
If the mechanic was not able to solve a limp mode (although it doesn't sound as though that is really what the issue was) for almost a year, I doubt the TB job was completely/properly done either.
Unless it is shown to be the mud/dirt to have affected the TB, I would not be putting the fate of the repair back in the hands of the one who buggered it up to begin with. Take it elsewhere. Somewhere trusted to do it right.
 

TDI Mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Location
Seven Valleys PA
TDI
03 jetta tdi wagon
It's almost certain to have made piston/valve contact, especially with the rough running/stall. It's extremely rare not to smack a few exhaust valves, so don't get your hopes up.
I have to agree with this. At NO point in the cam's rotation are ALL 8 valves closed. So when you have a timing belt break your cam is going to come to rest before the crank and you are 100% guaranteed to have piston/valve contact. If it doesn't happen under load or high rpm there sometimes my not be much evidence of it, but I guarantee it happened.
 

fisherdanski

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Location
Brighton, MA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta MK4 5S
Well, I swung by the shop, and was told by the mechanic that the belt must have jumped when I hit a bump or something, and that it seems like I drive the car too hard. There was no evidence of mud or grit inside the timing belt cover. I asked him to show me the parts, and saw a visually completely intact timing belt, but a tensioner that looks just like this one (tensioner 1):

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3033143&postcount=8

He denies that the tensioner was tensioned backwards, or that anything was done wrong on the timing belt installation, but I'm skeptical. Is there any other way this could have happened?

My plan right now is to call a tow truck and get my car out of there ASAP.
 

Crankous

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 14, 2009
Location
Wildomar Ca
TDI
2003 Jetta wagon GL 5speed w/Panzer FMJ, 2005 B5.5 passat auto, 2000 Golf 4 door 5 speed
my tensioner recently looked like it was headed the same direction. I found a pic of my tensioner it wasnt quite the same it had a crack that had developed from the outside to the inside of the tang metal but on the other side from the tang. Luckily I had caught it before it let go. I plan on at least taking a look at it in the near future. BTW mine was tensioned the correct way just seemed to be failing.
 
Last edited:

TDI Mason

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 13, 2011
Location
Seven Valleys PA
TDI
03 jetta tdi wagon
I'm not sure if there are any quality control issues, but I have read about this happening on rare occasions. From what I've read in the past on this site is that this problem is more common when a tensioner is reused/retensioned.
 

ymz

Top Post Dawg
Joined
May 12, 2003
Location
Between Toronto & Montreal
TDI
2003 Jetta TDI Wagon, 2003 Jetta TDI Wagon
was told by the mechanic that the belt must have jumped when I hit a bump
That's a good one... did he come up with this on the first day of the month?.
My plan right now is to call a tow truck and get my car out of there ASAP.
Good idea!! There are a number of well-regarded TDI techs in the area... (KHarley, MrCHill...)

Good luck!

Yuri
 

Omu-Mechanic

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Germany
TDI
Audi A4 2.5 tdi V 6
Hi my friend..
I am actually brand new in the us.. I from germany . In the past in know a lot of thinks about the tdi engines..
If you changed the timing belt with with pulley and tinginer. So there could be one reason to be out of timing.. please check out if the cranckshaft pulley is okay.. ... If the PIN inside is ripped than you know the reason[
 

PeterV

TDIClub Enthusiast, HO5G Doyen & Zen Master
Joined
Aug 17, 2000
Location
So, NH.
TDI
2000 Jetta 5 sp.
Classic reason we have GURUs.

I will offer the TDI club lift here at the Ho5G and I have Vag Com here. If needed I also have a Cummins with a 20 ft enclosed trailer with E track to transport if needed. I only ask for is fuel.

These cars are not corollas. there are extra measures you need to take. the oil pan is Alum get a skid plate.

Also "my mechanic" should be someone else's mech.

The north east has great assistance here. Do the job right and you only need to do it once that is a savings.
 

migbro

Veteran Member
Joined
May 19, 2010
Location
Lincoln, Mass.
TDI
2003 Golf GL
Hmmm. Interesting. Does anyone know if Litens has had any quality control issues in the past few years?
I have a vague recollection of there being some kind of problem with cracked tangs. Oilhammer will know if anyone does.

The smoking gun though is the total bu!!$h!t your mechanic has come up with about "hit a bump" or "driving too hard." That says he's untrustworthy and may be the guilty party.
 

fisherdanski

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 10, 2013
Location
Brighton, MA
TDI
1999.5 Jetta MK4 5S
Thanks so much for all the advice, guys!

Peter - I really appreciate the offer, it's beyond generous. Given my lack of mechanical know-how and that I'm almost certainly going to need the head rebuilt, I suspect that I wouldn't be able to accomplish much even with the lift and VCDS. I'm planning to get it to a trusted guru ASAP, and hopefully get this nightmare over with.

It sounds like it's possible that the tensioner just failed on its own, but highly unlikely. My gut tells me the shop botched the job, and is either too incompetent to realize it or too dishonest to own up to it.
 

PeterV

TDIClub Enthusiast, HO5G Doyen & Zen Master
Joined
Aug 17, 2000
Location
So, NH.
TDI
2000 Jetta 5 sp.
You have a PM I can assist in getting your car to a GURU.

P
 

1854sailor

Resident Curmudgeon
Joined
Aug 10, 2004
Location
Westerly, RI
TDI
2015 Golf SE SportWagen, 2015 Golf SE Hatch Back.
Just saw this thread. Are you sure that the "mechanic" used a "Conti TB Kit"? I've never seen a VW OEM tensioner pulley that was "Made in Canada".
 

jimbote

Certified Volkswagen Nut
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Location
spiral arm, milky way (aka central NC)
TDI
Tacoma 4x4 converted to TDI
the short tang on the tensioner has almost zero stress on it once tensioned aside from spring tension on a notch at the base ... if it indeed looks like the one pictured it was most likely tensioned backward (very common fubar) which forces the tab against the stop rather than moving it away
 
Top