Lousy MPG with new TDIs??!!

tdi90hp

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 5, 2002
Location
Canuckland
TDI
2011 Golf TDI 6 speed(gone but NEVER forgotten)
The longevity and aging is certainly where they shine. But that luster can be easily tarnished if you have a somewhat expensive repair in that first 100k miles. That can turn a lot of people off to allowing themselves to experience just how good a 10+ year old 300k+ mile Volkswagen can feel like.
THAT is todays VW TDI reality. You pays your money. You take your chances. Some will win and some will LOSE big time. Feeling lucky?
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I keep saying this, but it's not really that big a change. Only the numbers are a bit bigger. In 300K a PD will most likely need a turbo and cam, about $3K total with labor. An ALH may need a turbo, may need an IP. If both you're spending a similar amount, although the likelihood of those components lasting 300K is better. And a BHW? Don't ask. BRMs tend to eat EGR coolers, throttle bodies, and of course they need DSG flywheels. My B4 needed an IP at 220K, and a clutch at 250K.

My point? All TDIs have required some service during their long lives, and a lot of it is relatively expensive. Major repair costs as a percentage of purchase price hasn't changed a whole lot.
 

Terrific-In-Tahoma

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Location
East-of-Toronto, Ontario, Canada
TDI
'01 ALH Jetta M5 / 05 BEW Jetta Wagon A4
Lousy MPG with new TDIs?

OP: The sticker estimates have to be taken with a grain of salt (or a pound of it).

The reason I say this is because of what you are trying to do with the fuel that is being bought (and the variations)

There is Variation in the Cetane levels in Diesel Fuels, some are better (more cetane), some are worse.

There is Variation in Driving Style. Your own Fuely record for "The Red Car" shows the last fill up in January 2014. At that time "The Red Car" was getting approx 30 MPGs.....

There is Variation in Locale, Ambient air temperature of 0C/32F makes a difference to the fuel to air to give a 'hot' burn, yes it gets boosted by the turbo, (and it does have a Higher Density of O2 when colder), but that [the ambient temp] also slows the reaction time of the ignition.

Now, the mandate to Ultra-Low Sulphur fuel has increased the fuel consumption by 5%. (or conversely a 5% hit on the MPGs), from the 2003 Model year to the next Decade.

So, while the sticker shock is still there, it has moved from the Price Column over to the MPG column.....

You are buying LESS of a performer (By MPGs) than you were before, But you have not measured how 'Clean' that the Fuel / Air etc., is contributing to CO2 gasses with the 'New and Improved' model that you can purchase today.

PS, I was looking at a New TDI 2 and a half years ago. I Chose an older '99 as my return to VW, instead of the 'New and Improved' model at that time. I upgraded to an '01 and sold the '99. Same (almost) engine, better styling and 2 years newer.

[For Comparison - this is what was written at 'WallStCheatSheet.com' http://wallstcheatsheet.com/automob...diesel-cars-for-2014-and-2015.html/?a=viewall ]

According to Hertz, A small Ford Fiesta has a rating of 107 CO2 Emissions, and has a mileage rating of 20 km/Litre RUG. (This is equal to 5 L / 100 km) or what I am getting today with my '01 TDI. Edit: The '01 Average for CO2 emissions in Europe was ~179 g/Km ; http://www.auto123.com/en/news/new-study-on-co2-emissions-shows-growing-problem?artid=143463 . This implies that the air is now 40% less full of C02 per Km travelled. That is a significant improvement. The Cost in performance is offset by the actual Total-Cost of Ownership.

The secondary market for an auto is a good indicator of what it is worth after 3 years. IMHO

Conclusion: The MPGs are less, but the air is cleaner, and in smog challenged atmospheres such as the fish-bowl of Southern CA, every Fuel-burning car removed from the roads, makes the air cleaner. (The CARB effect)
 
Last edited:

thegradas

Member
Joined
Aug 18, 2011
Location
ON
TDI
2012 Passat 6MT
Avg. 4.9 L/100km or 47.7 mpg over 60,000 km
2012 Passat TDI, 6 speed manual transmission
(from my fuelly acct)
 

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
But that luster can be easily tarnished if you have a somewhat expensive repair in that first 100k miles.
But isn't that true about any car, from any manufacturer?

My VW is particularly shiny and lusterous after 1.5 years of ownership & 30K miles. Not one issue. Nada. Zip. Zero. None. After years of big service bills from so-called "premium" cars such as BMW's, Mercedes, Porsches, etc, in terms of reliability - spending half as much on this VW has returned an incredibly solid, reliable, and fun-to-drive car. The fact I'm able to squeeze 40MPG out of the thing is just the icing on the cake.

Sure, it's early; and anything can happen but that's the risk of ownership with any vehicle. I figure that with only $28K invested in the car (including mods), I'm already way ahead of the curve.
 
Last edited:

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
But isn't that true about any car, from any manufacturer? nope, not hardly

My VW is particularly shiny and lusterous after 1.5 years of ownership & 30K miles. Not one issue. Nada. Zip. Zero. None. wow, 18 whole months and 30k miles.... I'm not sure I'd be bragging about that

Sure, it's early; and anything can happen but that's the risk of ownership with any vehicle. I figure that with only $28K invested in the car (including mods), I'm already way ahead of the curve.your math is different than mine
bold is mine. :)

Hey, look, I like these cars a lot. I just think the track record from my shop's point of view has shown that they have a higher potential cost associated with ownership on average than the older ones. I've been wrenching on Volkswagens since I was a teenager, and have been in the field professionally since before the TDIs ever came to our shores. I've seen and experienced the Volkswagen diesel engine (as sold here) in all its forms, starting from the 48hp 1.5L non-turbo engine in an A1 Golf (Rabbit) that had all the complexity of a bench vise all the way up to the 140hp 2.0L Borg Cube that now resides under the hood of the current models... and everything in between. And we've never had a period where someone would have to be concerned with repair bills that exceeded $5000 like we do today. Didn't see it on the old pre-TDI VEs, didn't see it on the VE TDIs, didn't see it on the PD TDIs. We STILL don't. I literally WINCE when someone brings me a 2-year-old TDI, with less than 100k miles on the clock, probably not even paid for yet, and have to tell them they need to cough up nearly 3 grand to replace a turbocharger. And, it'll be the same part that failed. No improvement. This isn't like anything we've experienced prior. This isn't like a BHW balance shaft, or a BRM cam job, or an ALH injection pump. Because in all those cases, the car has either covered much more ground already or we'll be installing an improved part.

I really wish someone at Volkswagen is paying attention.
 
Last edited:

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I wonder if other modern diesels are having similar issues. Although turbos for VWs are expensive, I wonder what one costs for a BMW. Same for a DPF or CAT.

I find the new X3 diesel intriguing, but the complexity of that vehicle, even compared to a modern VW, frightens me. I was freeing up the parking brake cable on the Passat yesterday and saw an X3 on the test drive. I was thinking it has electric parking brakes. Not going to fix those with some Rost Off and a pair of pliers.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
My only non-VAG modern diesel experience has been with MB, specifically the Sprinters. And as I said in the thread I started on the topic, I've not seen nearly the problems with those. A few leaky HPFPs on some older 2.7L vans, but still running fine. No turbochargers. A few glow plugs, a few sensors, a few EGR valves, but for the most part they perform very well.

And what is crazy is, most all of the suppliers to MB are the same to VAG. The familiar ones, Bosch, Siemens/VDO, Mann, etc. I think all the MBs still use Garrett turbos, though. Probably why I've never seen one fail. I'll look closer next one I get in here.
 

dtwowhtwow

New member
Joined
Mar 2, 2011
Location
North Carolina
TDI
05 Passat GLS (current), 12 Jetta Auto (buyback), 06 Jetta Auto (sold), 06 Jetta, Manual (sold)
I have a 2012 Jetta TDI (currently 34k miles) and get 36-38 mpg typically. Best I got was 40 all highway. I don't dog it either. Previously had an 06 and always got 40-42. So my experience is newer gets less mpg.
 

wilder11354

Well-known member
Joined
Jul 27, 2014
Location
Montrose, Pa
TDI
2014 SE passat 6dsg
2014 tdi passat, 1200 miles. trip to New Hampshire past tuesday. got 707.3 miles on tank of fuel trip up and runing around hills up there before refueling friday morning. 16.16 gals. Semms like good mileage to me.
 

Diesl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 3, 2012
Location
Chicago
TDI
'78 Golf Diesel (long gone); 2012 Jetta Sportwagen TDI w/ DSG
I think the OP (OT?) means the new 150 HP versions. Those supposedly get a bit better mileage than the 140 HP CRs.
 

Tfuce

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 29, 2014
Location
Syracuse, NY
TDI
2014 Golf TDI
I just bought a new 2014 golf. I have only had a few fill-ups but so far, I am averaging 41.9 on Fuelly (mostly non-highway). I did a mixed, highway/stop and go 27 mile trip this week and averaged 52. I don't know any gasser that can do that. My partner's CX5 averages at best low 30s.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
I just bought a new 2014 golf. I have only had a few fill-ups but so far, I am averaging 41.9 on Fuelly (mostly non-highway). I did a mixed, highway/stop and go 27 mile trip this week and averaged 52. I don't know any gasser that can do that. My partner's CX5 averages at best low 30s.
Regular gasser no, hybrid yes.
 

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
bold is mine. :)

Hey, look, I like these cars a lot. I just think the track record from my shop's point of view has shown that they have a higher potential cost associated with ownership on average than the older ones. I literally WINCE when someone brings me a 2-year-old TDI, with less than 100k miles on the clock, probably not even paid for yet, and have to tell them they need to cough up nearly 3 grand to replace a turbocharger. And, it'll be the same part that failed. No improvement. This isn't like anything we've experienced prior.

I really wish someone at Volkswagen is paying attention.
I suppose my bar has been set low on reliability with bringing in late model "premium cars" back to the shop with expensive breakdowns. These problems have included turbochargers, Bluetec emission systems, HVAC, and a host of CEL's on 1-2 year old vehicles that I've owned for less than six months (two of such problems have happened within a few hours after driving off the lot). All have been covered under warranty but honestly, I think most of today's European cars are needlessly complex which likely adds to the probability for failure.

My point was, at least from my experience, that this is the first time time in years that I've driven a car for over a year and 30K miles without an issue. While I'll defer to your knowledge & experience with older VW's, the experience I've had with my 2012 VW has been stellar. When the time comes to replace the turbo, I may see that as an opportunity to spend that $3K on a 2260.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
I think most of today's European cars are needlessly complex which likely adds to the probability for failure.
Amen. This concerns me, too. I think new VW TDIs are complex, but when I think about something like the BMW 3-series diesel with all the driver aids, different driving modes, freewheeling, etc., I worry what this stuff will be like in a few years. Apparently I'm not alone, which is why resale values of German luxury cars drop like rocks when they come out of warranty.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Replacing a headlamp bulb on an Audi A8L drives home "needlessly complex" like a sledgehammer to the groin. Sure, the bulb is "only" $65, but the hour long ordeal to remove the front bumper cover in order to remove the headlamp assembly to replace said bulb means the cost for something that seems so trivial runs into the hundreds. A 20-pin wire connector for the front bumper cover on this car. Really? 20 pins? For a bumper cover?

It's almost as if the designers thought "well, this is a $90k car, so ALL of the services should be of a similar scale". I guess that's why they also decided to strategically place the oil filter assembly in such a place that requires removal of the whole airbox to access it. :rolleyes:
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Funny, the center brake light burned out on the '93 Benz the other day. I thought, "damn, probably the hard one to reach." And I wondered if it was an LED or something. Turns out the back of the light pulls right off, and there's one P21W bulb in there. Took about two minutes. Sometimes old is nice.
 

fossill

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 22, 2008
Location
Canada
TDI
Golf
Replacing a headlamp bulb on an Audi A8L drives home "needlessly complex" like a sledgehammer to the groin. Sure, the bulb is "only" $65, but the hour long ordeal to remove the front bumper cover in order to remove the headlamp assembly to replace said bulb means the cost for something that seems so trivial runs into the hundreds. A 20-pin wire connector for the front bumper cover on this car. Really? 20 pins? For a bumper cover?

It's almost as if the designers thought "well, this is a $90k car, so ALL of the services should be of a similar scale". I guess that's why they also decided to strategically place the oil filter assembly in such a place that requires removal of the whole airbox to access it. :rolleyes:

GM is the same. Have to pull the bumper to replace a headlamp bulb on their SUV's. Now thats quality engineering!!??
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Just had a 2009 Highlander in here with an evaporative emissions system problem, and Toyota decided to mount the cannister assembly ABOVE the exhaust system. So you have to take the entire center pipe and muffler down, off the car, then remove a couple heat shields, just to get at the darn thing. Despite the fact that there is ample room under the right floorboard for the components, under a cover (that covers nothing but an empty hole). :rolleyes:

So yeah, they all do some pretty dumb things.
 

Oilerlord

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2013
Location
Edmonton, Canada
TDI
2012 JSW TDI w/DSG. 700 Mile Club. 2008 BMW X3 "Beatrice", 2004 BMW 330Xi, 2014 Mercedes B-Class Electric
So yeah, they all do some pretty dumb things.
Here's one for you...

I was driving a 2010 BMW X5 diesel (with 5K miles on the odo) on the interstate between Seattle & Portland - when the engine suddenly turns off, and won't start up again. Tow truck gets sent to bring the SUV back to dealer for service. Explanation: I ran out of fuel with exactly 50% fuel remaining. BMW designed the model with TWO tanks in it, and a pump that distributes the fuel between the two. The pump failed, the first tank ran dry, engine shuts off.

I asked the service manager why BMW would design it that way...he told me for better weight distribution. Helps with "driving dynamics". Sure. Makes a lot of sense for a truck that WEIGHS OVER 5000 POUNDS!!! Funny that even with that careful weight distribution - you still don't see any X5's on track day.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
And you won't, because most organizations won't allow them on the track, for obvious reasons.
 

Alcancia

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Location
Clearfield, UT
TDI
2000 Jetta, 2005 Passat wagon
Is the complexity really a new thing though? Especially for VW/Audi? When I worked in the body shop about 6 years ago, there were always jokes when any VW came in. They'd say to the tech. to whom it got assigned "Ooooh, must have done something to piss the boss off, you're getting all the Volkswagens now."

At least with the A8L you could remove the bumper cover. I still remember the A4 Beetles and having to remove both rear fenders with the bumper cover just to get the bumper cover off. Just releasing a wire harness of any number of terminals would have been a relief compared to disassembling half the body.

Even back in the '80s VAG couldn't keep it simple. We had a Porsche 930 with some pretty minor damage. Those damn front fenders are bolted and glued on. Over an hour of work to remove a fender that could be done on other cars in 15 minutes.

I've always told people seeking my vehicle purchasing advice that VWs are some of the best cars made, but they should never get one. Unless they can do their own mechanic work or if driving a nicer car is worth the maintenance premium. I've been saying that for years about the VE and PD engines, so nothing new from my perspective for the CRs.

Being able to turn my own wrenches is the saving grace for the TDI in my book. I figure that the cost of my parts is equivalent to what other people pay for parts and labor, so I'm on par there. After that, the fuel mileage benefits are worth it, as is being able to drive what I perceive as a higher quality, more comfortable vehicle.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
The NB's bumper cover/fender assembly is cake easy to R&R. Everything on that car is easy. Unless some monkey asshat tried to put a headlamp bulb in... then all bets are off (and the prybars and hammers come out :rolleyes: ).
 

Scoutx

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 4, 2012
Location
Virginia
TDI
2012 Jetta (6MT) - 1000 Mile Club (retired)___ 2015 Jetta SEL (6MT)
Heck, I owned one car that required you to jack up and remove the front wheel simply the change the battery.....

2003 Dodge Intrepid.
 

El Dobro

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Feb 21, 2006
Location
NJ
TDI
2017 Bolt EV Premier, 2023 Bolt EUV Premier
Heck, I owned one car that required you to jack up and remove the front wheel simply the change the battery.....

2003 Dodge Intrepid.
I had a '65 Vette that you had to do that to get to the battery.
 

Alcancia

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 16, 2007
Location
Clearfield, UT
TDI
2000 Jetta, 2005 Passat wagon
The NB's bumper cover/fender assembly is cake easy to R&R.
The REAR bumper cover? Cake easy? Although not mechanically difficult, it still takes at least twice as long and at least twice as many technicians than any other rear bumper cover that I know of.

Everything on that car is easy. Unless some monkey asshat tried to put a headlamp bulb in... then all bets are off (and the prybars and hammers come out :rolleyes: ).
Ever replaced the entire headlamp assembly on that car? I'm pretty sure the NB headlamp housing is what got one of our technicians fired because of the abundant and resounding slew of profanities as he attempted to install one.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yes, I've done just about every possible thing you can think of on a New Beetle. And yes, I feel it is all easy. It is just a funny shaped 4th gen Golf.

Of course, I have had to work on all kinds of things over the years, so it's all relative.

The NB's headlamps are fine so long as someone who doesn't know what they are doing hasn't come in contact with the car with tools in their hands. Butchers screw things up on cars, then people like me WILL cuss because we have to go back in and fix the Crimes Against Mechanicals.
 

crashncowgirl

Member
Joined
Apr 7, 2014
Location
pa usa
TDI
2014 sportwagon tdi
my fuel economy is brand and state dependent. mostly hwy driving I'm averaging 44 to 46 mpg on pa origin fuel. turkey hill seems to do as well as any hess not so much. a recent fill that went from Millville NJ [Riggings ts not the one in town] to DC and back to pa [very flat land] got me 47.8 with a 2+- hr nap with the car running not compensated for in the calculation. I think fuel from nj and va get a little better mpg than from pa. as well fuel from out west. as for truck stops petro is usually the best tas can be spotty the one at ex 18 I 295 in nj is good. pilots suck.

what I do on the hwy is, if I'm behind a truck stay back just a bit and to the left as that's where the air intake is on the car hoping the air coming around the truck is just a bit more dense than the atmosphere in general. I stay out of the vacuum directly behind...or am I nuts??

thanks
 
Top