PD BEW Torsion Values....Again....

Cleenlivin

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2009 Jetta TDI Sedan (DSG) boughtback, 2004 Jetta TDI Sedan (Tiptronic), 2004 Jetta TDI Sedan (5 speed)
I know this subject has been discussed many...many...many times...... but........

My question is: will increasing the torsion value from the current 0.0 to say +0.5 improve my mileage? My car is an 04' Jett PD/Auto with a basic chip tune. I currently get about 32-33mpg between tanks. This is down considerably from the 38-41 mpg I saw when I initialy bought the car prior to having the timing belt changed. Regretfully, I didn't measure/record the initial torsion value.

The car starts right up on the first try and idles fine.

Measured after car was warmed up.

Address 01: Engine (038 997 016 L)
09:13:22 Group 004: Pump-Jet Valves
903 /min Engine Speed (G28)
4.0 °BTDC Injection Start (specified)
6.6°KW Injection Duration (specified)
0.0°KW Torsion Value

09:13:22 Group 013: Idle Stabilization (Injection Quantity Deviation)
0.38 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 1
-0.40 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 2
-0.47 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 3
0.49 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 4
Tuesday,22,April,2014,09:14:46:22092
VCDS Version: Release 11.11.3
Data version: 20120401

Address 01: Engine (038 997 016 L)
09:14:04 Group 004: Pump-Jet Valves
903 /min Engine Speed (G28)
4.0 °BTDC Injection Start (specified)
6.6°KW Injection Duration (specified)
0.0°KW Torsion Value

09:14:04 Group 013: Idle Stabilization (Injection Quantity Deviation)
0.40 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 1
-0.33 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 2
-0.45 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 3
0.38 mg/str Injection Quantity Deviation Cyl. 4
 

Growler

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one bad thing about the PD torsion value.. if it is way off one direction or the other, it will read 0.0KW instead of some crazy high number.

it might be worth trying to adjust it one way or the other to see if you do get a 0.5 or 1.0 reading to be sure it is on 0.0KW

This of course is if you are comfortable with the procedure to adjust the torsion value.
 

A5INKY

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one bad thing about the PD torsion value.. if it is way off one direction or the other, it will read 0.0KW instead of some crazy high number.
it might be worth trying to adjust it one way or the other to see if you do get a 0.5 or 1.0 reading to be sure it is on 0.0KW
This of course is if you are comfortable with the procedure to adjust the torsion value.
A quicker way to know is to do snap-revs of the idling engine while observing torsion value in VCDS. It sometimes takes a few throttle stomps, but if torsion is in range you will see torsion change momentarily by 0.5 deg. If this test doesn't change the value off 0.0, then you know you need to lift the hood and dig deeper.

FWIW, seems that most that have reported improved FE from torsion changes report that retarding cam timing was the direction for adjustment.
 

drywaller

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I just got my VCDS to read the torsion values after replacing the sensor and a couple of chaffed wires. Before the chaffed wires damaged the sensor torsion was -1. After the sensor failed I set the cam timing with the metalnerd tools and left it there for close to a year.
I just finished replacing the sensor hooked up the VCDS and torsion read+7. I adjusted this to -.5 and now the car seems to not be as snappy.
I am going to adjust it back to +3 to +4 and see how she runs.
 

puntmeister

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one bad thing about the PD torsion value.. if it is way off one direction or the other, it will read 0.0KW instead of some crazy high number.

it might be worth trying to adjust it one way or the other to see if you do get a 0.5 or 1.0 reading to be sure it is on 0.0KW

This of course is if you are comfortable with the procedure to adjust the torsion value.
Son of B&$&$!

Just had camshaft replaced - was gonna give the mechanic kudos for getting torsion spot on "0".

After reading your post, I went and checked (by stomping on gas - I've done it before, and, yes, in past tests, torsion would always shift .5 when revving). Wouldn't you know it - no shift in torsion!

&&$&$&&%%

Who in the world figured it would be a good idea to give a read of "perfect" when, in fact, the torsion is way out of acceptable range!

Apparently, "Spot on" and "So far off the mark it can't be read" are synonyms in German.
 

puntmeister

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Now, what to do?

I have changed the torsion before - but I knew where I was starting from...

Any way to get an idea if I am way too far advanced, or way too far retarded, without making a wild guess and going one direction or the other?

Kind of like Russia Roullette - pick a direction - if you go the right way, you'll get a number. Go the wrong way, and it won't start....
 

LNXGUY

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If you are way too far on either direction the car won't even start. If it's starting, your readings in VCDS are accurate.
 

puntmeister

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If you are way too far on either direction the car won't even start. If it's starting, your readings in VCDS are accurate.
I don't know who is right or wrong, but this seem's to conflict with Growler's post above, that 0.0 will come up if too far off TDC.

As far as I know, you can only even get a torsion reading if the car is running - in what situations would the car start, run, and give a 0.0 reading?
 
Last edited:

LNXGUY

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I don't know who is right or wrong, but this seem's to conflict with Growler's post above, that 0.0 will come up if too far off TDC.

As far as I know, you can only even get a torsion reading if the car is running - in what situations would the car start, run, and give a 0.0 reading?
When the timing is dead nuts on.
 

dschultz

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Virginia
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2005 Jetta Wagon
I don't know who is right or wrong, but this seem's to conflict with Growler's post above, that 0.0 will come up if too far off TDC.

As far as I know, you can only even get a torsion reading if the car is running - in what situations would the car start, run, and give a 0.0 reading?

f the Camshaft Position Sensor was not providing a signal the torsion will also be 0.0, but you will have a fault as well.
After I replaced my sensor I was at -0.5 with the dead sensor it was 0.0
 

drywaller

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For what its worth I just rolled my cam to the positive side and cinched it down. Never even plugged in the VCDS. Runs like a top and starts very quickly.
I know I might catch some heat for not knowing what the torsion value is but as long as I can squeeze 40mpg out of it im happy.
 

LNXGUY

Top Post Dawg
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For what its worth I just rolled my cam to the positive side and cinched it down. Never even plugged in the VCDS. Runs like a top and starts very quickly.
I know I might catch some heat for not knowing what the torsion value is but as long as I can squeeze 40mpg out of it im happy.
If the car runs good and gets good MPG, who cares what the torsion value is. Some people thing there is a magical number out there (Which there isn't).. Go by what the car tells you.
 

drywaller

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If the car runs good and gets good MPG, who cares what the torsion value is. Some people thing there is a magical number out there (Which there isn't).. Go by what the car tells you.
I could not agree more.
 

puntmeister

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Perhaps still not definitive, but, I bumped the cam back a notch. Torsion reading: -1.0

Bumped it forward (to where it was to begin with): Torsion reading: 0.0

So, its truly on 0.0 - not a misread.

And the torsion does not read -.5 during acceleration. So verifying its on 0.0 by watching to see if it reads negative during acceleration doesn't work either.
 
D

dlm308rem

Guest
Here are the results of my

camshaft replacement. (06 BRM 140138 miles, purchased with 77k on speedo) (I did it with extremely knowledgeable support staff and proper tools. All work I performed was supervised by said support staff, I cannot say enough about them. I tore it down, they replaced parts, applied torques, and I put back together.) okay now to the nuts and bolts or in this thread, torsion specs, and fuel economy, torque/power and all kinds of good stuff.

Facts:
1. Prior to camshaft replacement.
2. Attended G-T-G at (plug here) Midland Bio-Fuels. (Awesome Facility, been there 2x and I attend the chapin sc G-T-G always.)
3. Checked my cam at the advice of same said E.K.S.S.
4. Said Crap.
5. Cam is worn bad and getting worse.
6. Watched camshaft replacement procedures on you tube.
7. Discovered several threads regarding torsion and FE. (curiousity aroused, needless to say. I have owned 2 other TDI’s this is my third, looking for a 4th, still love them all.)
8. Said crap. This could be interesting.
9. So I checked my settings with VCDS. (Sorry, I did not log it nor check mass blocks 13, or 15, my bad, I did not see these settings until after the cam change.)
10. This is what my settings were before the camshaft replacement.
a. -1.9kw at idle (torsion value based on VCDS engine/mass/04)
b. -1.5kw with acceleration applied to 2k rpm in the driveway.(No load) (torsion value based on VCDS engine/mass/04)
c. Average FE was 42.5-43.5. Since I have owned it from 77k+ on a Daily drive.
d. Daily drive of 26ish miles highway at 70-79mph on the speedo then rural 35mphish 2 miles, each way. So roughly 56 miles to work and back each day.
e. Trips to PA average 43.5-48.0mpg (depending fuel quality.) at 80mph on speedo a/c on loaded with 2.5 adults and 2.5 children (lol) and gear for 4 days.
f. Values based on consistency over 1.5 years and 60k miles.
g. I did not log any of these tests. Again sorry.

Facts: After cam replacement.

1. Install Malone enhancement pack 1.5. Wink Wink,
2. Checked cam torsion using VCDS engine/mass/04 during initial break-in. -2.9kw at idle and -2.5kw at 2k-3krpm.
3. Drained break-in oil
4. Replaced with break-in oil.
5. Read every post in this thread.
6. Now have 400 miles on new cam. Results have been recorded in a drive of about 14 miles up the highway with some rpms at 35k. Capturing engine/mass blocks, 04,13,15. (if interested in this doc, pm me.)
7. Still at -2.9kw at idle, -2.5kw at 2krpm
8. I have noticed increased fuel consumption.
9. $50.00 of fuel at $3.60 per U.S. gallon. I think that equates to about 36mpg. This is a rough estimate.
10. I have found the number on my timing cover that reads -1.9kw. So I will adjust this setting once I get about 1000 miles on the cam. I also want to check the mileage a little more accurately prior to making the adjustment.
11. I will then recheck the mileage and post back.
 

Dimitri16V

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DE
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Perhaps still not definitive, but, I bumped the cam back a notch. Torsion reading: -1.0

Bumped it forward (to where it was to begin with): Torsion reading: 0.0

So, its truly on 0.0 - not a misread.

And the torsion does not read -.5 during acceleration. So verifying its on 0.0 by watching to see if it reads negative during acceleration doesn't work either.
that is not right . Value always jumps by 0.5 when blipping the throttle

cam sensors can be flaky when bad . Mine would read 0 , then it would read -10 , then +3
 

A5INKY

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2006 Jetta TDI, 2002 Eurovan Westphalia VR6
that is not right . Value always jumps by 0.5 when blipping the throttle...
Not necessarily. I have had a few that didn't make the slight shift with throttle snaps. That is why I said to dig deeper of it doesn't. Most do make the shift though.
 

puntmeister

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2004 Jetta BEW
Yeah, trust me, I played with it, to make sure the 0.0 was truly 0.0. If the reading was way off, then bumping it slightly would either continue to result in a 0.0, or get a really high +/- number.

Since had CAM replaced - its now at -0.5, and jumps to 0.0 under acceleration.
 

deezelpower

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Not necessarily. I have had a few that didn't make the slight shift with throttle snaps. That is why I said to dig deeper of it doesn't. Most do make the shift though.
I think you're right. I've had it both ways on mine (changes with throttle blip, or not). Since the readings are rounded off to 0.5 (at least on the BEWs), I think that if it's set to 1.0 and blips to 1.5, the actual setting is probably 1.2-1.3.

I've also had my cam replaced at 170K, and a seizing water pump took out my timing belt at 190K. Before the pump seizure, the torsion was 1.5>2.0, whcih seemed perfect (good power, mileage, low smoke). With the new belt now, torsion was set to 1.0>1.5, and it's acting very retarted--smokes heavy at WOT and higher EGTs. I plan to advance it again at the next oil change.

It's also true that different brands of belts can read different torsion settings for the same effective setting. This is due to tiny variations in belt length. I've had 3 different brands of belts now and find each one slightly different from the next. This is why there's no universal setting.
 
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