m-TDI pass emissions? alh engine.

777funk

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Location
Missouri
TDI
2003 Jetta ALH - 5 speed
I'm considering a mechanical pump and wastegate turbo.

Any clue if this would pass emissions for an ALH emissions standard car.
 

wonneber

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Oct 12, 2011
Location
Monroe, NY, USA
TDI
2014 Jetta Sportwagon,2003 Jetta 261K Sold but not forgotten
I would ask where you get your car inspected.
In NY all the 'emissions' controls must be there, CEL working, no CEL on (iIrc), and the car gets scanned with a state computer that sends the results to DMV.
 

Powder Hound

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Joined
Oct 25, 1999
Location
Under a Bridge, Crestview, FL, USA
TDI
'00 Golf 4dr White 5sp, '02 Jettachero 5sp, Wife's '03 NB Platinum Gray auto(!)
Just wondering why you would consider this. The current OEM setup is reliable, robust, and provides headroom for performance gains via ECU manipulation. What do you expect to gain that would surpass this?

PH
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Yeah, the ALH is the high water mark for simplicity and durability just as it left the factory. There is nothing to be gained from changing this.
 

777funk

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Location
Missouri
TDI
2003 Jetta ALH - 5 speed
I wouldn't call the stock VNT reliable or robust. Clogged vanes and boost issues are all over these boards. I can't remember ever having an issue with a MB wastegate turbo or for that matter the fully mechanical engines other than rubber seals or hoses wearing. CEL and Limp home mode issues are rampant with the TDI. Not saying it's a bad engine... just more problems possible than a bare bones simple mechanical engine.
 

gforce1108

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 2, 2006
Location
Newburgh, NY
TDI
04 Jetta GLS BEW, 14 Audi A7 V6 TDI, 13 Porsche Cayenne V6 TDI
225k miles on my 04 and one single instance of limp mode (which cycling the key while driving cleared) - due to dealer incompetence in leaving a vacuum line loose where it would rub. I have had 4 TDIs (3 mkiv) - no other limp mode faults. I wouldn't call it rampant. Basic maintenance is key (including running it hard enough to keep the turbo clean)

Legally - it'll never pass any emissions testing. I find many more issues with the rest of the car wearing out and causing problems. If you really want simple - get something even older. The only reason I can see to do a MTDI setup would be if you were transplanting a TDI into something else and wanted to take a shortcut.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I wouldn't call the stock VNT reliable or robust. Clogged vanes and boost issues are all over these boards. I can't remember ever having an issue with a MB wastegate turbo or for that matter the fully mechanical engines other than rubber seals or hoses wearing. CEL and Limp home mode issues are rampant with the TDI. Not saying it's a bad engine... just more problems possible than a bare bones simple mechanical engine.

You are misinformed. The VAST majority of ALH engines never see these issues, and if they do, they have already covered 1/4 million miles or more. The Garrett VNT15 is one of the best turbochargers put on a VAG diesel engine ever.

What you DO see here (a lot) is people who do not understand what is a very simple system and have no regular guy (or gal) they take the car to for general service, and end up coming here to ask questions on how to get the system working correctly again. They are very simple, and very reliable.

Oh, and many newer MB diesels get along just fine with variable geometry turbochargers, too. My OM651 is fantastic! :)
 
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777funk

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Location
Missouri
TDI
2003 Jetta ALH - 5 speed
Regarding the TDI's reliability, I may be misinformed... It's just that when I search I find lots of intake cleaning, stuck turbos, CEL or Limp issues reported. This is my first TDI and after owning old mechanical MBs for years, you get used to something. I never had to touch any of that. This car has had issues during my short ownership. Maybe if I resolve them and keep driving, that will average out. You do get spoiled with old mechanical engines... I guess that's where I'm coming from.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
I too have owned some old MB diesels... and I am spoiled by the newer Volkswagens. Easier starts, better performance, better fuel economy, less stink, and they can zip to triple digit speeds with ease. Something my old W126 300SD could never do. But it was, for its time, a decent car.

I think you will find, if you take the time to understand them, the ALH engine has a very good engine management system (Bosch EDC15) and will provide a lot of good service if taken care of properly.

You may want to have the car looked over by someone who knows them, and not worry too much about everything you read here. I maintain loads of these cars, the vast majority of which have no issues of the type you are concerned with, and the owners never or rarely post here.
 

djrhetoric

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 28, 2007
Location
MPLS
TDI
80 Rabbit pickup MTDI
I maintain loads of these cars, the vast majority of which have no issues of the type you are concerned with, and the owners never or rarely post here.
Exactly. This wouldn't be a valuable message board if all owners posted 'Hey guys, things are working great!' on a daily basis. People only post when something goes wrong.

In contrast, I'd rather see threads about turbo issues rather than consistent internal engine failures. The turbo is easy to replace and with good spirited driving should go hundreds of thousands of miles without any soot clogging issues.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
My family currently owns 4 ALHs. I can't think of an incidence of limp mode on any of the cars, two of which have well over 300K miles on them. If you drive and maintain them properly they're about as bullet-proof as any engine out there. I wouldn't change a thing.
 

h4vok

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Joined
Feb 4, 2017
Location
Denver (ex MN)
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2003 Jetta TDi 5sp 171k
I would not change the pump except to put a 11mm on, but you could definitely put a wastegated turbo on if that is your thing. It will push the power up in the rev range as it will not be as responsive as a vnt. As for emissions if you don't have check engine lights and have your cat and egr at least look like they work you should be ok. If you go as far to change the pump to a non vw though you will have a hard time with the check engine light. You will need to keep the smoke in check as well depending on how they test in your state. Best way to keep the vanes unclogged is a proper tune/maintenance and floor it every few times you drive to 3.5k rpm.
 
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burn_your_money

Veteran Member
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Oct 16, 2012
Location
Missouri
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99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
MTDIs are pretty well hated over here. Go to vwdiesel.net for some mTDI fans. That's the group that appreciates turning screws rather than pushing keys on a keyboard. Its a matter of preference and there are pros and cons to each. I'm hoping my next car will be mTDI but who knows. I have to go older than 96 to avoid emission testing or move.
 

BobnOH

not-a-mechanic
Joined
May 29, 2004
Location
central Ohio
TDI
New Beetle 2003 manual
Regarding the TDI's reliability, I may be misinformed... It's just that when I search I find lots of intake cleaning, stuck turbos, CEL or Limp issues reported............................
I might say misled instead of misinformed. Many of the CEL and limp mode issues are something else. Running with no lower cover will get at the actuator.
That being said if you're set on doing it, go ahead. Check your states inspection specifications, I don't think they look at the injection pump. I'm thinking it would be O.K. as long as you leave the emissions and everything else is working as designed.
 

Alchemist

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2007
Location
Lethbridge, Alberta
TDI
'04 ALH Golf
If you even use one, how could the ECU set readiness monitors to pass inspection? Without a pump connected there will be DTCs which should be an automatic fail.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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South of Boston
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'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Its a matter of preference and there are pros and cons to each.
Other than saving the effort of adapting a wiring harness to a non-diesel vehicle that you've swapped a TDI into, I'm hard pressed to see any advantages to an MTDI.
 

burn_your_money

Veteran Member
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Oct 16, 2012
Location
Missouri
TDI
99 Beetle, 96 B4V, 05 Passat wagon
Other than saving the effort of adapting a wiring harness to a non-diesel vehicle that you've swapped a TDI into, I'm hard pressed to see any advantages to an MTDI.
Here's a couple. They may not matter to you personally bit to others it does.

- no charge to adjust fuelling for any changes (turbo, injectors etc)
- less aging electronics to fail (no car becomes more reliable as it ages)
- something to tinker with (not what you want on a daily but great for a project car)

That said I wouldn't do a mTDI in a mk4 unless rats got in the engine bay and ate all the wires and sensors but I can't see myself ever swapping a eTDI into any other vehicle unless I needed the electronics for emissions or an automatic.
 

mrurbina

Vendor
Joined
Oct 4, 2009
Location
CHARLOTTE,NC
TDI
MK4 jetta tdi , alh wagon
everyone here and on FB groups that post issues with "limp mode" all boils down to either incorrect or no maintenance at all. That's why a lot of guys delete their egr valve instead of actually cleaning them,the valve cover pads and the ccv pads to avoid oil that's non turbo related from getting into the intake system thus clogging it. Also people don't understand that long drives on these cars are good and short trips all the time are bad.
 

777funk

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 3, 2017
Location
Missouri
TDI
2003 Jetta ALH - 5 speed
Here's a couple. They may not matter to you personally bit to others it does.

- no charge to adjust fuelling for any changes (turbo, injectors etc)
- less aging electronics to fail (no car becomes more reliable as it ages)
- something to tinker with (not what you want on a daily but great for a project car)

That said I wouldn't do a mTDI in a mk4 unless rats got in the engine bay and ate all the wires and sensors but I can't see myself ever swapping a eTDI into any other vehicle unless I needed the electronics for emissions or an automatic.
This is my reasoning. I have the car working now I believe... but TDI, reliable and robust or not... for a good running car we depend on:
-Relay(s)
-PCM
-MAF
-MAP

and that's just input, power, and brains... there is also a wire loom, end connectors to break and open circuit, actual pin connections to oxidize, then there's the output: ip control, ip shut off, boost control, etc. etc. etc.

You can comb the internet and find tons of videos of old mechanical Cummins, Cat, Detroit Diesel, Mack, VW, Mercedes, etc running perfectly. Some of these are even from the 40s and 50s. So there is something to be said for mechanical technology. FWIW, Cummins produced an all mechanical engine in a pickup truck all the way to 1998. There's nothing wrong with electronics... but there is a beauty in simplicity to a purely mechanical efficient diesel engine.
 

gearheadgrrrl

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 15, 2002
Location
Buffalo Ridge (southwest Minnesota)
TDI
'15 Golf DSG, '13 JSW DSG surrendered to VW, '03 Golf 2 door manual
Your ALH is already "mechanical"...

Its the same rotary pump design VW diesels used since the 70s, just got an electric throttle and electronic controls supervising.
 

Vince Waldon

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 25, 2009
Location
Edmonton AB Canada
TDI
2001 ALH Jetta, 2003 ALH Wagon, 2005 BEW Wagon
Any clue if this would pass emissions for an ALH emissions standard car.
Seems to me this is still the root question you're trying to solve for... and any jurisdiction I know with electronic testing will plug into the OBD2 port, not see an ECU reporting "ready", and fail your car with its beautiful m-TDI pump regardless of how fewer electronic parts it has. :)

It *is* such a jurisdictional thing your best bet may be to track down a testing center directly and find out what they do to diesels.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
This is my reasoning. I have the car working now I believe... but TDI, reliable and robust or not... for a good running car we depend on:
-Relay(s)
-PCM
-MAF
-MAP
Even an IDI VW would rely on the ignition switch & relays to run. The MAF and MAP can both fail, the car will still run. Overall the ECUs are quite reliable.

-J
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Location
South of Boston
TDI
'97 Passat, '99.5 Golf, '02 Jetta Wagon, '15 GSW
Its the same rotary pump design VW diesels used since the 70s, just got an electric throttle and electronic controls supervising.
This is like saying all gas engines are alike because they have spark plugs. There really isn't anything significant in common between an IDI NA VW diesel from the 70s and a electronically controlled TDI in from '96 on.
 

compu_85

Gadget Guy
Joined
Sep 29, 2003
Location
La Conner, WA
TDI
... None :S
I'd argue the base mechanical parts of the pump are the same, but the million small pieces in the governor are replaced with a temp sensor and actuator.
 

oilhammer

Certified Volkswagen Nut & Vendor
Joined
Dec 11, 2001
Location
outside St Louis, MO
TDI
There are just too many to list....
Having owned many VAG diesels, including the very first generation 48hp 1.5L A1 car, bolted a 4 speed manual, with no power steering, or power brakes, or air conditioning, I'd say the superior performance and driveability while somehow using less fuel is well worth the potential complications of the EDC system.

The VE and PD TDIs are very reliable. If they weren't, I would not own them, much less pile so many miles on them.
 

UhOh

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Dec 24, 2014
Location
PNW
TDI
2000 & 2003 Golf GLS (2005 Mercedes E320 CDI)
^^^ This!

My cars are now ALL 18 years old, all original ECU and, other than a CTS and 109 relays (but now that I'm thinking about it, I'm not sure they those too aren't original!) I've not had a single electronics issue for any engine-related stuff: records that I have from POs don't show anything; I've got something like 120k miles between all the cars. Now then, door lock control modules and such are another matter!

I've got one Zombie Apocalypse vehicle: 1993 Ford IDI (only bit of electronics is the GP relay). It's a farm truck, infrequent use. Absolute pig- wouldn't want to have to use it on a regular basis. My tractor's also an IDI with no electronics stuff, but there's a bunch of safety switches, and these have engaged me in more than a fair share of electrical fights.
 
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