Brake Upgrade

Abacus

That helpful B4 guy
Joined
Nov 10, 2007
Location
Relocated from Maine to Dewey, AZ
TDI
Only the B4V left
I have the Corrado 280mm rotors (4x100) with twin pot Audi calipers and it stops on a dime. It's the way brakes should be, even with the ABS, which rarely kicks in. The ABS controls the brake bias, so there is no issue with braking that I have found.
 

yakko

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 10, 2010
Location
Wappingers Falls, NY
TDI
PASSAT 96,97
I have the Corrado 280mm rotors (4x100) with twin pot Audi calipers and it stops on a dime. It's the way brakes should be, even with the ABS, which rarely kicks in. The ABS controls the brake bias, so there is no issue with braking that I have found.
Abacus,
Do you have part numbers for those goodies?:)
 

tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
I have the Corrado 280mm rotors (4x100) with twin pot Audi calipers and it stops on a dime. It's the way brakes should be, even with the ABS, which rarely kicks in. The ABS controls the brake bias, so there is no issue with braking that I have found.
In a non-ABS car (like mine) these big brakes will 'over brake' the front axle limiting the car's ultimate braking potential to the threshold of that axle. The car will have lower ultimate braking potential than it had with the smaller front brakes (assuming that its original braking proportion was near correct) because at the new point of front axle threshold braking the rear axle will be under its threshold limit. Significant rear axle braking potential will be unused. ABS will mitigate by preventing lock-up at the front axle but won't 'proportion' the braking effort differently. As road conditions deteriorate the disproportion will become more profound. Pedal feel and response will likely be more rewarding to the driver but the fundamental imbalance is lurking.:)
 

TDIL3dad

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 21, 2012
Location
N. VA
TDI
96 B4, 96 B4V project
I have the Corrado 280mm rotors (4x100) with twin pot Audi calipers and it stops on a dime. It's the way brakes should be, even with the ABS, which rarely kicks in. The ABS controls the brake bias, so there is no issue with braking that I have found.
I have same upgrade on my daily driver 96 B4 (non-ABS), and have had them for about 9 years with absolutely no problems.

I also added braided stainless brake lines and larger master cylinder, and have been very satisfied with combination and resulting positive and quick brake response.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=442375&highlight=brake+master+cylinder
 

WestVa304

TDIClub Contributor
Joined
Sep 16, 2010
Location
Ashevegas
TDI
2005 TDI Jetta Wagon, 2004 Passa Tdi 5spd
Just for clarification, do the dual piston calipers require the master cylinder upgrade if already equipped with ABS?

I tried getting the larger G54 calipers for the Corrado from NAPA two months ago which was special order but they never came in. I am going by there now and will report back with an update. The corresponding rotors and pads of course only took two days to come in. It's a much cheaper route through NAPA.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
In a non-ABS car (like mine) these big brakes will 'over brake' the front axle limiting the car's ultimate braking potential to the threshold of that axle. The car will have lower ultimate braking potential than it had with the smaller front brakes (assuming that its original braking proportion was near correct) because at the new point of front axle threshold braking the rear axle will be under its threshold limit. Significant rear axle braking potential will be unused. ABS will mitigate by preventing lock-up at the front axle but won't 'proportion' the braking effort differently. As road conditions deteriorate the disproportion will become more profound. Pedal feel and response will likely be more rewarding to the driver but the fundamental imbalance is lurking.:)
My understanding of non ABS brake systems is in line with the above if using bigger brakes on the front and not doing anything for the rears. In the end, since the car needs brakes up front, I ordered stock sized Zimmerman drilled rotors and Akebono pads. I am not really a fan of drilled rotors, so I guess I will see how the combo works.

The brakes on there now are very worn. The rotors are bad too- very worn down, so the new parts should make a big difference.
 
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Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF
When I had Abacus' car - I had Zimmerman rotors (not drilled) and akebono's. The G60 brakes were that much better. The ABS master cyl is 24.2mm, the non ABS is somewhere around 22mm. The audi master which can be ordered is 25mm. if all the brake components are functioning properly, the size of the master cylinder will not affect stopping distance with the upgraded brakes, but will affect pedal feel - the pedal will have to travel further for a given pedal pressure compared to the larger master cylinders.

That said, if I had to do it over again with a B4, It would be the first mod I do, with or without ABS (after the A4 shifter upgrade), it's just that much better.
 

bikeprof

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Location
Pagosa Springs, Colorado(YEAH!)
TDI
1996 Passat B4 Variant white, 1996 Town & Country 3.8 LXI
I've installed the big brake kit/ G60 stuff...
Works great in the front but because it is a Variant, the rear is heavier and brake bias NEEDS more there(at least in mine).

I am looking to purchase the rear big brake kit with the AUDI larger master cylinder to compensate for all the good driving I do :). hopefully soon...

YES! This would be the FIRST MOD, before ANY forward/speed MOD's. The stopping MOD is GREAT insurance!
(lots of B4's have found themselves UNDER other cars, lack of stopping power :-( )
 
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ToddA1

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 3, 2011
Location
NJ 08002
TDI
'96 B4V, '97 B4 (sold), '97 Jetta (scrapped)
True, but very few can threshold brake, in a panic situation.

-Todd
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
So I wound up with the Akebono pads and drilled Zimmerman rotors. The old pads were down to 20% and the rotors were quite worn- right around 18 mm which is at the limit. They would grind and groan when hot. I don't really brake hard very often either and the parts only had about 30k miles on them.
I'll report back with the impressions in a day or two.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
I think the vendor sent pads that are too thick.
The ventilated Zimmerman rotor measures 20 mm. The Akebono 696 pads are 14 mm. I have compressed the piston all the way. Does anyone know the oem thickness of the pads for a ventilated rotor? I get conflicting application data- some say Akebono 704 for the 1997 Passat TDI some say 696. Anyone encountered this puzzle? Some limited searching suggests that 11 mm is the correct pad thickness for a 20 mm ventilated rotor. I'll have to wait until Tuesday to call the vendor....(insert sad face here).... Here is a picture that looks nice but doesn't really help much I realize...

 

vanbcguy

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 22, 2013
Location
Vancouver, BC
TDI
'93 Passat - AHU mTDI with GTB1756VK
VW used that same caliper with both vented and solid rotors. Looks like you have the solid rotor pads (which incidentally are the correct ones for my B3).
 

bikeprof

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 2, 2005
Location
Pagosa Springs, Colorado(YEAH!)
TDI
1996 Passat B4 Variant white, 1996 Town & Country 3.8 LXI
Hmmm, braking is an accumulation of many items, primarily:
good brakes,
good tires,
drivers quick reaction,
vehicle capable/satisfactory mechanical condition,
and proper weight of brake equipment to vehicle weight.

B4V's were a "little" overweight, and last time I drove mine, STILL was... :-(

(I'm getting the '90's AUDI IIII master cylinder AND the ECS big brake kit for the rear. Then I'll go PHEW...)
 

Windex

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 1, 2006
Location
Cambridge
TDI
05 B5V 01E FRF


Maybe 3 mm...
If it were mine, I would go through the pain of sanding down the pads on some 80 grit emery cloth and getting them to a thickness that fits (with a little clearance).

Unless the parts store was down the street and was open - does not sound like that is the case... :D
 

Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I would wager that those pads are for the VR cars. The 4x100 (mk3, B3, B4) and 5x100 (mk3, B3, B4) pad design is the same but the thickness of the pad material for VR is greater. I had a set of pads on the shelf that were for VR and compared them to the 4x100 pads and there was more material because the VR rotor is thinner, or rather the vent area is smaller.

EDIT: just checked info for pad thickness,

5x100 VR (11" brakes) 19.4mm thick, part # 357698151B
4x100 (10.1" brakes) 15.2mm thick, part # 357698151A

Again the pad physical shape is identical except for thickness. VanBCguy might be correct about the fact they'll fit the solid rotor cars, since we didn't get any of those here I've never seen them in person.

Steve
 
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Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
EDIT: just checked info for pad thickness,

5x100 VR (11" brakes) 19.4mm thick, part # 357698151B
4x100 (10.1" brakes) 15.2mm thick, part # 357698151A

Again the pad physical shape is identical except for thickness. VanBCguy might be correct about the fact they'll fit the solid rotor cars, since we didn't get any of those here I've never seen them in person.

Steve
Steve-
Thanks for checking that.
I measured the Akebono 692 (including the backing plate this time) at 19 mm which comes close to your VR pad measurement. The part numbers are hard to figure; The TRW 692 (which gets a good review from members Oilhammer and Runonbeer) measure 15mm according to the website. I guess unless someone on the forum wants these 692 Akebonos, I need to return them to Bora Parts.
 
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tripl-e

Veteran Member
Joined
May 22, 2006
Location
Basking Ridge, NJ USA
TDI
b4 sporting a new ET 6th gear!
ABS is about preserving steering ability, not about stopping faster.
That's right. And the steering ability needs preservation because any OEM brake arrangement in even remotely good repair is capable of stopping the wheels from turning. The car's braking capacity is determined by traction not swept area or pad compound. In an imminent collision situation ABS is necessary because panicked drivers push too hard on the middle pedal. Big brakes will only exacerbate this situation, particularly in non-ABS cars.
 

Yblocker

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 1, 2010
Location
Oakland, CA
TDI
1997 Passat
So here is a brake Pad comparison for you guys.
The TRW TPM 0696 (lower pad in the photo) is the correct pad thickness (15mm) for my car with vented rotors. According to Aaron of Bora parts, he has only run into 2 other people who had B4's with the Akebono 696 being too thick (19 mm), so he is sending the 704's to me which are thinner like the TRW pad. Maybe the calipers are different or something for early vs later '97's.


The Akebono 696 is the topmost pad in the photo. No bevel like on the TRW pad. The TRW TPM0696 pads also come with new caliper to bracket bolts and new dust boots for the slide pins which I think is nice. The Akebono looks to have more pad area; I don't know if the Akebonos being a ceramic pad and the TRWs being semi-metallic has anything to do with that, or if it would even make a difference.


The backing plates are of different design as well. The TRW pad has a conventional clipped on metal shim, while the Akebono has a bonded fabric shim.


Now I don't know if there is any reason to use one over the other. I'm leaning towards the Akebono pad because I already have them on the rears, and those pads generate very little dust, whereas the Jurid (semi-metallic) pads that I just took off the front were very dusty and a bit noisy at times. I do hear that ceramic pads don't have a good initial bite when cold. We'll see.
 
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Steve Addy

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Aug 7, 2002
Location
Iowa
TDI
97 Mk3
I would wager that the two B4 cars Bora had pad thickness problems with were four cylinder. With the 10.1" brake rotors (4x100) it's not possible to use the VR pads with stock rotor thickness and OE calipers.

Steve
 
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