coolant heater + power inverter?

acfreema

Active member
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Mar 5, 2009
Location
Colorado
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2005 Jetta TDI m/t
Has anyone tried using a power inverter to run a coolant heater while driving?

I don't know about the rest of you, but I've experienced some very miserable highway travels at -15 F and below with minimal heat. I'm thinking that it would be a very good idea to install a frostheater (which I will be doing anyway) with a power inverter to provide more heat to the engine while driving through such low temperatures. In addition, I think it would also help improve my fuel economy on said trips and at times when I am running errands and leaving my vehicle in a parking lot for 1-3 hours at stretch.

The whole package would involve installing the following:
frostheater
1500 watt power inverter located in the engine bay
remote on/off switch for the inverter

As an optional addition, I would also like to find a way to wire a connection that will allow me to use the frostheater with either the inverter or an external source (house current). Sort of like this:

-in->|
_____|-out to frostheater->
-in->|


I'm imagining that it would be as easy as reversing a Y-connector with male-male and female-female cords.

Feedback?
 

jcrews

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Fix the underlying problem. When everything is working, I can maintain 87C at -10 or lower.

Initial warm up is much better with a winter front installed.

Zerostart heaters are not designed to operate with the engine running. There is a warning on the installation instruction sheet.
 

sfierz

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Location
Rockford, Illinois
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1996 Tornado Red Passat
It's possible, although I would wonder how much current draw a 1500 watt invertor would take when driving or parked. It might be more than the cig lighter fuses can handle. It might also draw the battery down if the car battery can not keep up with it.--Steve
 

acfreema

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Location
Colorado
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2005 Jetta TDI m/t
What might the underlying problem be? I'll be changing the coolant this summer.
I'm not sure what a "winter front" is, and google doesn't recognize it in the "shopping" search function. I am assuming it is some sort of air dam, but searching doesn't tell me where I can find something like this. Am I not asking the right question?

sfierz said:
I would wonder how much current draw a 1500 watt invertor would take... more than the cig lighter fuses can handle[?]
It would be run with 0/1ga wire from the battery. I imagine that a 1000watt heater would pull 80-90amps, or whatever the electrical system can offer, hence the on/off switch.
 
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sfierz

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1996 Tornado Red Passat
jcrews has a point--Zerostart (Frostheater) heaters are not supposed to be run while the car is working. I have put a "winter front" on by blocking the grill and some of the underlying air entry points with foam pipe insulation--worked last winter. I also use a Zerostart 1000 w unit with good effect.--Steve
 

jcrews

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Run the car up to full temperature, slowly open the expansion tank, and check the coolant temperature with a good thermometer. If it's nowhere near 87C, replace the thermostat.

I don't think there is a winter front available for the beetle, but foam pipe insulation (think about air conditioner pipes) works well.
 

adamant628

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Columbus, OH
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2003 Jetta Wagon GLS
It'd probably be a lot harder to start the car with a dead battery than cold coolant.

I used the foam pipe insulation last winter, I couldn't really tell if it worked or not since I put it on before it got really cold, but for <$3 it didn't bother me much.
 

acfreema

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Thanks for the suggestions and input. I'll do some experimenting and testing to see what I find.
 

Vince Waldon

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Edmonton AB Canada
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The math will tell us that even if the inverter is 80% efficient a 1500 watt Zeroheater will draw 1500/(14*.80) or 133 Amps from your 120 Amp alternator... probably a non-starter. ;)

The 1000 watt version would draw nearly 90 amps... still a huge load.

Edmonton Alberta is probably kinda like Fargo ND weather-wise and my TDI warms up OK during our cold snaps (-25F).... good t-stat, three working coolant glow plugs, full belly pan, and the front blocked off with the appropriate covers.

Hang in there... you'll figure it out!
 
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acfreema

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adamant628 said:
It'd probably be a lot harder to start the car with a dead battery than cold coolant.
Vince Waldon said:
The math will tell us that even if the inverter is 80% efficient a 1500 watt Zeroheater will draw 1500/(14*.80) or 133 Amps from your 120 Amp alternator... probably a non-starter.
I had intended to let the first comment go as a joke, but your continued insults are really not acceptable. Does it really look like I'm that stupid? I've used enough various pieces of equipment to know what I can expect, I know to keep an eye on the bottlenecks in a system.

Does it really look like I'm incapable of seeing that my car could not start from a battery that is also powering a 1500watt power inverter? Why do you think I made sure to stress the existence of a power switch?

Does it really appear that I would run this device constantly and expect everything to work normally? Did it ever occur to any of you demeaning characters that I may have the discretion to make judgements as to an appropriate time to start this equipment? Of course it didn't, because you would much rather highlight my apparent ignorance, when it's obvious that you didn't read my entire post (or, just as likely, that you didn't understand it).

Seriously children, if you don't have something productive to say, stay out. I asked for useful information, and there have been several people with constructive criticism. I'm quite capable of seeing the value in the criticism that is directed my way, but attacking just to destroy is thoroughly unacceptable.

These snide remarks may be common practice in your circles of friends, but they are not things that belong in productive discourse; they don't belong anywhere. Such brazen obnoxiousness is something that I won't tolerate.

Someone close this thread.
 

Vince Waldon

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Whoa whoa whoa... hang on OP.

We routinely see folks asking about inverters powering heaters... it's a common topic that people misunderstand... and so a little bit of math etc helps sort out why it wont work... no disrespect intended, which was the point of my "hang in there, you'll figure out why it's really not heating" comment.

We also regularly see folks ask if they could run their coolant heater off their battery, since there's no place where they work to plug in. An innocent question.

On the interwebs no one can see your snicker as you type in a post... and I for one resent being called a child for trying to help a newcomer out with a proposed solution to a heating problem. Pretty long, detailed, and innocent initial post if you intended it all as a joke...and absolutely no smilies or any other indicator that you weren't serious.
 
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adamant628

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I just assumed that a battery wouldn't be able to power something like that for very long and still be able to start your car.

On another note, this might sound really crazy, but what would happen if you installed a clear plexiglass hood, or panel over the engine, seal up as much of the engine compartment as possible and have yourself a little passive solar engine heater?
 

jayb79

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Location
Exeter,NH
If your car is an A4 with a 5 speed then all you need to do is wire up your coolant glow plugs so that you can turn them on manualy.
 

acfreema

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belome said:
Welcome to the internet!
You're right, it was silly to expect people on a TDI-specific forum to be able to offer practical advice to a known real problem. That was stupid of me. Stop being part of the problem.
Vince Waldon said:
On the interwebs no one can see your snicker as you type in a post... and absolutely no smilies or any other indicator that you weren't serious. Pretty long, detailed, and innocent initial post if you intended it all as a joke...
Yeah, I agree; what about my initial post seems silly? As I mentioned a little later, I understand that it would not have sufficient power to heat at full capacity, but (I expect) it would use the full amount of excess energy available to my personal power grid.
I for one resent being called a child for... a proposed solution to a heating problem.
Is it now clear that I didn't intend it as a joke? My ideas are fairly sound, I was hoping for some useful feedback (which I got) to see if anyone else had tried something similar, or could offer information to support or refute the proposed design.
I also resent being belittled, which is exactly what those comments were doing.
 

acfreema

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Colorado
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adamant628 said:
On another note, this might sound really crazy, but what would happen if you installed a clear plexiglass hood, or panel over the engine, seal up as much of the engine compartment as possible and have yourself a little passive solar engine heater?
I expect I would spend more on the hood than anything. Furthermore, solar cells (the affordable ones) are quite sensitive to heat. As a hurdle that would have to be overcome (if I did try something like this), I would still have to find a way to keep the hood clear of snow and frost. And since my biggest issues are morning starting and night driving, I'd need to find a way to trap enough ambient light at night to make the panels effective.
 

adamant628

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I was thinking more like a greenhouse. But, as you said you will want this in the morning and at night, it wouldn't do you much good. I could see it as more viable for an afternoon return from work.
 

Scubanero

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Calgary AB
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2005 Passat Wagon
The practical advice is in posts 2, 7 & 10. Everything else is some combination of bad idea and thin skin. Even if you could run a coolant heater from your alternator, there wouldn't be anything left to recharge your battery and when it is cold, you need every amp-hour you can get. Powering it in the parking lot is downright amusing. Seriously.
 

MayorDJQ

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sfierz said:
It's possible, although I would wonder how much current draw a 1500 watt invertor would take when driving or parked. It might be more than the cig lighter fuses can handle. It might also draw the battery down if the car battery can not keep up with it.--Steve
The draw from a 1500 watt heater will be significant. The '09/'10s have a 1000W heater built into the HVAC system and you can feel it when it kicks in, almost like an A/C comp kicking in/out. It also draws the mileage down quite a bit.
 

40X40

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acfreema,

So far people seem to have been trying to help you. It also seems as if you are doing your best to make sure nobody will ever make that mistake in the future.


BTW, I read your other posts where you used a paper clip instead of a fuse....


Bill
 
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sfierz

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Rockford, Illinois
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OP, I think you just need a Frostheater/Zerostart and plug it in overnight at those temps. That's what we do here and the car stays warmer throughout the day.
 

fnjimmy!

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acfreema said:
I had intended to let the first comment go as a joke, but your continued insults are really not acceptable. Does it really look like I'm that stupid? I've used enough various pieces of equipment to know what I can expect, I know to keep an eye on the bottlenecks in a system.

Does it really look like I'm incapable of seeing that my car could not start from a battery that is also powering a 1500watt power inverter? Why do you think I made sure to stress the existence of a power switch?

(a bunch of whining)
Hey settle down and get a thicker skin, the internet is not serious business.

What Vince meant by non-starter is that the heater would
draw more power than the entire capacity of the charging system. Non-starter is a common term for an idea that isn't technically feasible.

If you make the assumption that everything you misunderstand is intended as an insult, you will only achieve to make your head harder and your mind narrower.
 

mctdi

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se WI
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MayorDJQ said:
The draw from a 1500 watt heater will be significant. The '09/'10s have a 1000W heater built into the HVAC system and you can feel it when it kicks in, almost like an A/C comp kicking in/out. It also draws the mileage down quite a bit.
Hey What about turning the AC system into a heat pump system?
{ VW are you listening in? :rolleyes: }
 

Vince Waldon

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acfreema said:
Such brazen obnoxiousness is something that I won't tolerate.
I don't normally beat a dead internet horse, but for some reason this one sticks in my craw.

My initial response was a sincere attempt to respond to an idea to solve a heating problem with a bit of analysis intended to help point in a different direction, since powering a 1500 watt heater thru an inverter using a 120 amp alternator won't give you the results you're looking for, Y-connector or not, charging or not, starting or not.

Somehow that analysis seems to have been perceived as brazen obnoxiousness, belittling, childish, demeaning, insulting, etc... not my intent, and obviously I'm fully regretting any attempt to assist at all, particularly given the on-going vitriol in the follow-up posts. Lesson learned.

Over and out! ;)
 

steelmb

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Hey guys cut the OP some slack. I am sure he has a reason for being so sensitive. Possibly the wrong time of the month or something. :rolleyes:
 
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