NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

tsdevine · Mar 10, 2012

I've only ever fueled the car in PA, MA and Maine. PA and MA are B2 states. The fill ups in Maine were at Irvings, which supposedly might be Canadian spec fuel. I'm heading down to NC this summer....seems like I won't have that kind of opportunity for that trip.

dslpusher · Mar 11, 2012

gumaku1 said:
Looks like VW has some homework due to NHTSA on 3/30/12
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/acms/cs/jaxrs/download/doc/UCM417829/INIM-EA11003-50442P.pdf

Hi:

The link didn't work and gave an error message. Can you point to where it is located instead?

Thanks,
Brad

Thinking about buying a 2012 Golf TDI and I'm concerned about the pump issue.

darrelld · Mar 12, 2012

dslpusher said:
Hi:

The link didn't work and gave an error message. Can you point to where it is located instead?

Thanks,
Brad

Thinking about buying a 2012 Golf TDI and I'm concerned about the pump issue.

The link works, depending upon your browser you may have to right click and "save as" the pdf file.

dweisel · Mar 12, 2012

tsdevine said:
But the sales guy said something along the lines that they do something special on the first fill up. The implication that I got was it was to help insure that it's well lubricated out of the gate as that may have a big impact to longevity.

Yea, they try not to put GAS in it! lol

kjclow · Mar 12, 2012

Just looked at the NHTSA info. VW is reporting about 140,000 diesels produced for sale in the US, including 2012 models that have not sold. Their failure report shows total failures of 193, inlcuding those that had known misfueling. That makes the failure rate 0.13%

turbocharged798 · Mar 12, 2012

And what makes you think every failure was reported?

I bet only 10%(random number) of the failures were reported, if that.

Go to your dealer and ask them how many HPFP failures they have seen and how many 09-11 TDIs they sell. That should be a more realistic number.

kjclow · Mar 12, 2012

This is going by what VW has reported to NHTSA. At this point in time, I don't think VW would want to be caught sweeping anything about the HPFP under the rug. It would do VW much more harm than good to misrepresent these numbers to the NHTSA.

Of course it may not include early failures that were attributed to something else.

I have asked two of the three dealers here in Charlotte over the past few years and IIRC one dealer had two while the other has had none.

Westro · Mar 12, 2012

0.13%

Sweet, that is just low enough that the NTSB will not issue any kind of action.

dweisel · Mar 12, 2012

kjclow said:
Just looked at the NHTSA info. VW is reporting about 140,000 diesels produced for sale in the US, including 2012 models that have not sold. Their failure report shows total failures of 193, inlcuding those that had known misfueling. That makes the failure rate 0.13%

So,there is a total of 193 failures of which 133 have showed up here on the tdi club. (State by State List) That leaves only 60 owners that had failures that did not find their way here to the forum. That would seem to be a pretty high percentage of owners with failures that have found the forum.

I'm not sure a dealership is going to be 100% straight up with you. Seems they have a selective memory. After all, you don't want to hurt sales.

pknopp · Mar 12, 2012

turbocharged798 said:
And what makes you think every failure was reported?

I bet only 10%(random number) of the failures were reported, if that.

Go to your dealer and ask them how many HPFP failures they have seen and how many 09-11 TDIs they sell. That should be a more realistic number.

VW isn't going to hide numbers.....Now, is it possible that some were not reported as warranty work and paid by the customer? Sure.

But this is still going to be a very low number. If the actual number is closer to 250 out of 140,000 with a good number of them do to misfueling, it's not something I'm going to worry about.

Plus 3 Golfer · Mar 12, 2012

kjclow said:
Just looked at the NHTSA info. VW is reporting about 140,000 diesels produced for sale in the US, including 2012 models that have not sold. Their failure report shows total failures of 193, inlcuding those that had known misfueling. That makes the failure rate 0.13%

The 0.13% number is not a meaningful number with respect to failure rates of the various MYs and designs of the HPFP. What would someone use that number for? I would hope MY 2012s will have a significantly lower failure rate than that number and we know MY 2009s are significantly higher than that number. Quoting statistics without analysis and understanding of the data can be misleading and interpreted by others incorrectly.

First, the 192 (not 193) vehicles are for complaints filed through about March 2011. We do not know the complaints filed beyond about March 2011. 188 complaints of the 192 are MYs 2009 and 2010. Only 4 are MY 2011. There are also admitted misfuellings (by dealers and customers) that are not included in the 192.

The HPFP design was changed at least 3 times through 2010, Calculating failure rates for the overall fleet through 2012 makes little sense since we know the newer pumps have a more robust design and hopefully a reduced failure rate. The important statistic would be the failure rates for each pump design. We don't have that data. Only VW knows.

The 2/07/2011 NHTSA Opening Resume on EA11003 shows only 160 complaints (not the 192). There were 21 complaints of the 192 filed in February 2011 and 10 complaints through March 10, 2011. So, the calculation of MY failures rates in the Opening Resume is low. This monthly complaint data is an indication of how the failure rates of various MYs might grow over time.

Lastly, the failure rates for specific MYs will change as new designs are implemented, as pumps wear, and as the fuel quality used varies. So, we must do the calcualtions using the appropriate data. For example, the failure rate for MY 2009 is 0.53% reported in the 2/7/2011 Opening Resume. This is certainly not the failure rate today for MY 2009 HPFP failures.

Niner · Mar 12, 2012

Plus 3 Golfer said:
The 0.13% number is not a meaningful number with respect to failure rates of the various MYs and designs of the HPFP. What would someone use that number for? I would hope MY 2012s will have a significantly lower failure rate than that number and we know MY 2009s are significantly higher than that number. Quoting statistics without analysis and understanding of the data can be misleading and interpreted by others incorrectly.

First, the 192 (not 193) vehicles are for complaints filed through about March 2011. We do not know the complaints filed beyond about March 2011. 188 complaints of the 192 are MYs 2009 and 2010. Only 4 are MY 2011. There are also admitted misfuellings (by dealers and customers) that are not included in the 192.

The HPFP design was changed at least 3 times through 2010, Calculating failure rates for the overall fleet through 2012 makes little sense since we know the newer pumps have a more robust design and hopefully a reduced failure rate. The important statistic would be the failure rates for each pump design. We don't have that data. Only VW knows.

The 2/07/2011 NHTSA Opening Resume on EA11003 shows only 160 complaints (not the 192). There were 21 complaints of the 192 filed in February 2011 and 10 complaints through March 10, 2011. So, the calculation of MY failures rates in the Opening Resume is low. This monthly complaint data is an indication of how the failure rates of various MYs might grow over time.

Lastly, the failure rates for specific MYs will change as new designs are implemented, as pumps wear, and as the fuel quality used varies. So, we must do the calcualtions using the appropriate data. For example, the failure rate for MY 2009 is 0.53% reported in the 2/7/2011 Opening Resume. This is certainly not the failure rate today for MY 2009 HPFP failures.

I'm far more interested in the number of HPFP's sold, or complete "kits" sold to parts departments by parts managers in the USA. That way it's not an issue as to whether the pump showed up as warranty or operator error.

A little gas in the tank never killed/destroyed a diesel pump in the past, why should it now? Completely unacceptable margin of error in the design.

I am also very much interested in the reported failures from June 2011 through December 2011, for all year models. Hot months seem to show higher mortality rate for these HPFP's in the past.

El Dobro · Mar 12, 2012

As I've mentioned before.
Service guy-"No, we haven't done any".
Parts guy-"Yea, we've done a few of them".

Plus 3 Golfer · Mar 12, 2012

Niner said:
I'm far more interested in the number of HPFP's sold, or complete "kits" sold to parts departments by parts managers in the USA. That way it's not an issue as to whether the pump showed up as warranty or operator error.

A little gas in the tank never killed/destroyed a diesel pump in the past, why should it now? Completely unacceptable margin of error in the design.

I am also very much interested in the reported failures from June 2011 through December 2011, for all year models. Hot months seem to show higher mortality rate for these HPFP's in the past.

There is a VW spreadsheet that shows 154 HPFPs replaced under warranty. This supposedly doesn't include misfuels or those replacements paid by someone else. The last date shown on the spreadsheet is 2/11/2011.

I used the data from that spreadsheet prior to construct this graph of failures and shown again below. When I have some time, I'll sort these failures by season.

Dieselfitter · Mar 12, 2012

El Dobro said:
As I've mentioned before.
Service guy-"No, we haven't done any".
Parts guy-"Yea, we've done a few of them".

Sales Man- "Whats a HPFP?"

Service Guy-"No,we haven't done any"
Parts Guy-"Yea, we've done a few of them"

I just had to add that!

dweisel · Mar 12, 2012

Dieselfitter said:
Sales Man- "Whats a HPFP?"
Service Guy-"No,we haven't done any"
Parts Guy-"Yea, we've done a few of them"

I just had to add that!

As I said: Consider the source. Its like everything else in todays world. It all depends who you talk to.

timwagon · Mar 12, 2012

pknopp said:
VW isn't going to hide numbers...

VW appears to be doing everything in their power to hide the numbers!

I agree that the total number of HPFP failures is fairly small, and I don't stay up at night worrying about it, but I also believe that VW has been less than forthcoming about this whole issue.

A new document just posted on the NHTSA site is a memo outlining VW's request for another extension, to June 1, 2012, in order to translate certain of the documents NHTSA has requested.

If that's not an obvious attempt to further drag out the NHTSA investigation, I'll eat my HPFP. VW is a multi-national company, and is the #1 or #2 manufacturer worldwide, depending on how you count vehicle sales, and they don't have the resources to translate their documents?

Are they in Swahili? Urdu?

VW's now had more than enough time to provide all the requested materials, and they wait until February 29th to tell NHTSA that their documents are not in English?

I smell a verräter!

South Coast Guy · Mar 12, 2012

Even 700 failures would only be one-half of one percent of all cars sold. And I would still be pissed if it happened to me.

pknopp · Mar 12, 2012

timwagon said:
VW appears to be doing everything in their power to hide the numbers!

I agree that the total number of HPFP failures is fairly small, and I don't stay up at night worrying about it, but I also believe that VW has been less than forthcoming about this whole issue.

A new document just posted on the NHTSA site is a memo outlining VW's request for another extension, to June 1, 2012, in order to translate certain of the documents NHTSA has requested.

If that's not an obvious attempt to further drag out the NHTSA investigation, I'll eat my HPFP. VW is a multi-national company, and is the #1 or #2 manufacturer worldwide, depending on how you count vehicle sales, and they don't have the resources to translate their documents?

Are they in Swahili? Urdu?

VW's now had more than enough time to provide all the requested materials, and they wait until February 29th to tell NHTSA that their documents are not in English?

I smell a verräter!

That doesn't mean they are hiding anything. They will report all of them that there is to report.

uberc5 · Mar 12, 2012

pknopp said:
That doesn't mean they are hiding anything. They will report all of them that there is to report.

While they may not be "hiding" the numbers, they are certainly obfuscating the situation and delaying resolution. VAG knew from the minute they were asked for records that they would need to be provided in English. Asking for a 3 month extension for "translation" is ridiculous. I would also wager that when the documents are provided, they will be actual paper documents. These will of course need scanned into a database before they can ever be used by NHTSA. They will probably be in some odd paper format as well, just to delay the process some more.

Hide the actual numbers, probably not. Create many avenues for error by NHTSA, absolutely. Welcome to big business...

Ski in NC · Mar 12, 2012

NHTSA could jump that delay by responding "..no need to translate, just go ahead and send them in German."

dweisel · Mar 12, 2012

Ski in NC said:
NHTSA could jump that delay by responding "..no need to translate, just go ahead and send them in German."

And then VW could say they were mistranslated. Gotta love it. Round and round we go, when will it end nobody knows.

RNDDUDE · Mar 12, 2012

IF VW has indeed done revisions to the HPFP on the CR's as a result of the early incidences of non-misfuelling reported failures (seems to be the perception, although I haven't seen proof here of that), and if they believe that the pump revisions on new cars AND replacement parts supplied to dealers HAS indeed greatly reduced the incidence of failure.....well then it makes $$$ sense for VW to stall for as long as possible, because the PERCENTAGE OF REPORTED FAILURES WILL GO DOWN AS MORE CARS WITH BETTER (supposedly) PUMPS HIT THE STREAM OF COMMERCE. If they can demonstrate that the overall ratio of units sold to units that failed is statistically low enough, they very well could avoid a general recall, and instead agree to only warranty failures on an "as happens" basis. As this is not likely to be considered a "safety" related issue (debatable), avoiding a general recall is hugely beneficial to VW from both a cost and reputation standpoint. Remember, if you walk away from this forum and talk to the general public that owns or is considering owning a TDI CR, there is almost NO KNOWLEDGE of this issue, and VW would like to keep it that way, and from a strictly business standpoint, can you blame them? It might ultimately bite them in the arse, but the smart money would say thay are taking a prudent approach. As for me, I will keep my 2011 JSW ONLY until I get a failure or reach the end of my extended warranty, then it is gone. I would absolutely consider another one if significant changes to the pump system had occured by that time.

dave729 · Mar 12, 2012

Plus 3 Golfer said:
There is a VW spreadsheet that shows 154 HPFPs replaced under warranty. This supposedly doesn't include misfuels or those replacements paid by someone else. The last date shown on the spreadsheet is 2/11/2011.
I used the data from that spreadsheet prior to construct this graph of failures and shown again below. When I have some time, I'll sort these failures by season.

I got all excited when I saw this, looking at the decrease in failures as miles went on for the 2009/10, but then I realized it was Feb 2011. And as I looked at the graph unscientifically, I realized I was looking at a curve that would be pretty close not only to the distribution of failures, but an approximation of the distribution of miles on 2009/10 cars in Feb of 2011. Bummer. That says the sensitivity towards every little blip or rough idle moment never ends...

Plus 3 Golfer · Mar 12, 2012

dave729 said:
I got all excited when I saw this, looking at the decrease in failures as miles went on for the 2009/10, but then I realized it was Feb 2011. And as I looked at the graph unscientifically, I realized I was looking at a curve that would be pretty close not only to the distribution of failures, but an approximation of the distribution of miles on 2009/10 cars in Feb of 2011. Bummer. That says the sensitivity towards every little blip or rough idle moment never ends...

Absolutely, I can't wait to see more VW data. As I said in a previous post a month or so ago, one can only image what the data will look like when the 2009 and 2010 fleet has more miles on it.

Anyways, as I promised a few posts ago, I have graphed the failures by month of repair shown in the second graph below. The first graph is the same as before except with a more descriptive title.

So, where's the early warranty failures in the second graph? The first warranty failure in VW's spreadsheet is in Sept. 2009. Where's Mechanics Illustrated's failure (Aug. 2009) and dweisel's first failure (Dec. 2009 - no failure reported repaired in the Pittsburgh area). Are these failures covered by VW's good will or part of the 121 failures supposedly due to misfueling. Are there really no warranty failures prior to Sep. 2009?

I find it interesting that once NHTSA began their PE (opened August 26, 2010), VW apparently started covering failures under warranty.

I guess prior failures were deemed bad fuel by the styrofoam cup test.

Plus 3 Golfer · Mar 12, 2012

Here's some interesting information from Ford. Notice, the "we need to have a 460 microns HFRR maximum and it to be enforceable."

Also, note the fuel survey data Ford submitted to NHTSA.

Source: Ford Appendix P response to NHTSA
Sensitivity to fuel lubricity
Diesel fuel systems using high pressure pumps can "scar" due to the loss of clearances supported by fluid
hydrodynamics provided by the lubricity of diesel fuel. Clearances (3-6 microns) are far smaller than the
diameter of a human hair (~60 microns), gasoline in diesel fuel can allow metal to come into contact with
metal leading to debris "little pieces of metal" and then catastrophic failure of the high pressure pump.
U.S. ASTM standard is 520 microns maximum (lower is better) as measured by HFRR (High Frequency
Reciprocating Rig). The request made previously was for a maximum of 400 microns HFRR via WWFC.

Biodiesel >= High Sulfur Diesel >> Ultra-Low Sulfur Diesel >>>> Gasoline

Biodiesel has very good lubricity (2% biodiesel can produce <400 micron HFRR) while gasoline can't get a
measured result on HFRR "very poor no lubricity"

Market fuel surveys (SGS) are suggesting that U.S. diesel fuel quality is not so high quality and especially
from the perspective of lubricity, there are samples that are >520 micron HFRR limit (as high as 662
microns) we need to have a 460 microns HFRR maximum and it to be enforceable.

It is possible that if a vehicle would consistently operate with a fuel containing let's say 600 micron lubricity,
there is a high confidence that the high pressure pump would experience excessive wear enough to cause
fuel pump seizure and possibly contamination throughout the FIE system.

To accommodate the poor lubricity found in the U.S. Ford had incorporated an enhanced high pressure
pump package.

In a development program, there is some indication that operating with a poor lubricity fuel (such as 600
microns HFRR) could result in fuel pump functional concerns when using a fuel pump designed for a good lubricity market.

Source: FORD 1-20-2012 APPENDIX G, NON-CONFIDENTIAL ENGINEERING REVIEW
Bosch WIF testing
• Bosch tested 99% fuel 1% water (nonemulsified)
per NACE TM0172 method
• Results are highly dependant on fuel mixture
rest time in HP components
– 6 hr run time, 0 hour rest – no issues
– 12 hour, 18 hour – no issues
– 18 hour, 36 hour – functionally OK, visual degradation
on some units, failure on others
– 24 hour, 54 hour – complete functional and
mechanical failure

dweisel · Mar 12, 2012

Plus 3 Golfer said:
So, where's the early warranty failures in the second graph? The first warranty failure in VW's spreadsheet is in Sept. 2009. Where's Mechanics Illustrated's failure (Aug. 2009) and dweisel's first failure (Dec. 2009 - no failure reported repaired in the Pittsburgh area). Are these failures covered by VW's good will or part of the 121 failures supposedly due to misfueling. Are there really no warranty failures prior to Sep. 2009?

Plus3, first of all thanks for the time you have spent on an indepth analysis of the info. As far as VW reporting all the failures to the NHSTA is just isn't there. As you pointed out my first failure isn't in the info. I personaly know of two other failures that don't seem to be in the info. One was at Sunset VW of Stuebenville,OH and the other was at Hatfield VW of Columbus,OH. So,complete info on all failures just isn't there.

Thanks again for your efforts.

joseph2012 · Mar 12, 2012

2010 Golf TDI HPFS Failure at 39K

Experienced a High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure on a 2010 Golf TDI at 39,000 miles in February 2012. Despite being out of warranty, VW replaced the entire fuel system (approximately $6000 dollars worth of parts- not including labor.) I asked the dealer how long my fuel system is covered for if the pump fails again. Was told 12 months or 12,000 miles. There is no guarantee they will cover this failure the next time.

I don't mind spending money to fix my car but I have never owned a car where a single failure has the potential to coast so much. Bottom line: Unless VW decides to extend the warranties on the HPFS to at least 100K, I plan to sell the car in the next 12 months / 12,000 miles.

My guess is that, because my repair was covered by VW, my failure will not show up in the investigation.

Niner · Mar 12, 2012

joseph2012 said:
Experienced a High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure on a 2010 Golf TDI at 39,793 miles in February 2012. Despite being out of warranty, VW replaced the entire fuel system (approximately $6000 dollars worth of parts- not including labor.) I asked the dealer how long my fuel system is covered for if the pump fails again. Was told 12 months or 12,000 miles. There is no guarantee they will cover this failure the next time.

I don't mind spending money to fix my car but I have never owned a car where a single failure has the potential to coast so much. Bottom line: Unless VW decides to extend the warranties on the HPFS to at least 100K, I plan to sell the car in the next 12 months / 12,000 miles.

My guess is that, because my repair was covered by VW, my failure will not show up in the investigation.

Please file a report with NHTSA immediately on your car and it's Vehicle Identification number. It is very important that you do so. If you put it on NHTSA 's radar, VW will have to explain.

pknopp · Mar 12, 2012

joseph2012 said:
Experienced a High Pressure Fuel Pump Failure on a 2010 Golf TDI at 39,000 miles in February 2012. Despite being out of warranty, VW replaced the entire fuel system (approximately $6000 dollars worth of parts- not including labor.) I asked the dealer how long my fuel system is covered for if the pump fails again. Was told 12 months or 12,000 miles. There is no guarantee they will cover this failure the next time.

I don't mind spending money to fix my car but I have never owned a car where a single failure has the potential to coast so much. Bottom line: Unless VW decides to extend the warranties on the HPFS to at least 100K, I plan to sell the car in the next 12 months / 12,000 miles.

My guess is that, because my repair was covered by VW, my failure will not show up in the investigation.

Yours is one that will be in the final numbers.

NHTSA Update on CR HPFP failure investigation

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