CR engine HPFP analysis

Pelican:

Who at ABC did you email?

I couldn't find an individual email, so I completed the "contact us" form. I referenced the BMW expose in the subject.

emailed NYTimes as well...

Speaking of the BMW recall, Porsche just did the same on all their FSI V8s.

I would like to point out the HPFP on the direct-injected gas engines is a very different animal than the ones used on diesels. There may be a similar type of failure, though. I know on the VAG direct-injected gassers, the HPFP failure was actually at the camshaft that drives it (lubricated by engine oil, not fuel). I do not know the details of the BMW failure.

I'd also like to add that MB's CR diesels, which have been in use in this country (with our supposedly "crappy" fuel) for 5 years seem fine. Just serviced a 260k mile Sprinter yesterday, runs perfectly fine.

oilhammer said:

I would like to point out the HPFP on the direct-injected gas engines is a very different animal than the ones used on diesels. There may be a similar type of failure, though. I know on the VAG direct-injected gassers, the HPFP failure was actually at the camshaft that drives it (lubricated by engine oil, not fuel). I do not know the details of the BMW failure.

I'd also like to add that MB's CR diesels, which have been in use in this country (with our supposedly "crappy" fuel) for 5 years seem fine. Just serviced a 260k mile Sprinter yesterday, runs perfectly fine.

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So do you suggest that CR TDI owners use or dont use fuel additives?

If you're in the US, use B5 and Stanadyne when you feel like it.

if you have good fuel, then no need to worry

So my theory is to hit high volume name brand fuel stations, I save all receipts and note date quantanty and mialage in a ledger I keep in my glove box. Thank god I'm divorced, the ex would be rolling her eyes right now. I figure avoiding going to the same station or even brand (as I can find no hard data which one may actually be better) repetitively I am minimizing the chance of feeding my hpfp tank after tank of crap fuel. fill up at say a quarter tank and the situation is further mitigated.

oilhammer said:

I'd also like to add that MB's CR diesels, which have been in use in this country (with our supposedly "crappy" fuel) for 5 years seem fine. Just serviced a 260k mile Sprinter yesterday, runs perfectly fine.

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A friends Diesel Jeep Liberty is the same way. runs fine not a problem or hiccup to it. (a Mercedes powerplant)

maybe VW is using cheaper alloy metals than MB uses?

woofie2 said:

A friends Diesel Jeep Liberty is the same way. runs fine not a problem or hiccup to it. (a Mercedes powerplant)

maybe VW is using cheaper alloy metals than MB uses?

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That is not an MB engine... it is a VM Motori engine (from Italy). But yes, they seem to burn our fuel OK too.

oilhammer said:

That is not an MB engine... it is a VM Motori engine (from Italy). But yes, they seem to burn our fuel OK too.

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Seems like there are a fair number of people running WVO as well as the higher concentrations of bio also. Seems like the weak points on those jeeps as far as the drivetrain goes are not engine related either. Outside of a weak torque converter in the transmissions and poor lift pump in the tank, the overall drivetrain seems to do pretty well in them.

dweisel's NEW Theory on HPFP Failures

It just struck me this morning at 5am. Something that has always puzzled me. Where do those initial metal particles come from? So far I have been of the belief that lack of lubrication of the roller starts the whole failure off. The roller heats up and starts to shed metal which turns into a cascading effect that sometimes ends in catastropic failure of the hpfp.

Here is my new theory. Its still a lack of lubrication,but what I'm thinking now is that the piston cup and piston cup bore are responsible for the making of the first metal particulates that develope in the fuel system. The piston cup being made of steel and the piston bore being made of aluminum. Once there is insuffient lubrication between the piston cup and piston bore the harder steel starts to wear the aluminum bore. Hence the fine metal particles that are found on the fuel filter top. Minimal wear that really doesn't have much affect on the fuel system. Conversely if this contact area between the piston cup and piston bore becomes too dry due to lack of lubrication the aluminum bore starts to wear dramatically. Once enough metal is made in this manner,some of it may become trapped between the roller and the roller holder. Tolerances are very close in this area as the roller rides on a thin film of fuel. Any particles large enough to wedge between the roller and roller holder start to score the roller making more metal particles. Once the roller is scared up enough it starts to wear the cam. From there on out it ain't pretty. Game over.

So, its still a lubricity problem,but I now believe it is the hpfp aluminum case w/ the steel piston cup running inside that precipitates the failure.

dweisel
LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY,LUBRICITY!

dweisel:

Looks like another victim, but warranty covered it:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=298226

On the above post, I don't recall reading if anyone has had the metal particles analyzed on an atomic absorption unit (or other emission spectrometer) to see if they are aluminum, steel or a combo of both?

aja8888 said:

dweisel:

Looks like another victim, but warranty covered it:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=298226

On the above post, I don't recall reading if anyone has had the metal particles analyzed on an atomic absorption unit (or other emission spectrometer) to see if they are aluminum, steel or a combo of both?

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ferland25 had analysis done. Unfortunalely, ferland25 stopped posting shortly after these 2 posts.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2886251&postcount=93

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=2892294&postcount=96

I just got another complete tooefed fuel system from a contact at a local dealer. VOA pawned that one off on the owner's insurance company, despite the little fuel testing setup clearly showing it was nothing but #2 diesel in the tank.

Gonna take the HPFP apart this evening.

How much of the "denial of warranty" issue rests with the dealership, and how much with VWoA? Of course, there's collusion here, but are the dealers that are covering these failures under warranty taking it out of their overhead? I would doubt it.

oilhammer said:

I just got another complete tooefed fuel system from a contact at a local dealer. VOA pawned that one off on the owner's insurance company, despite the little fuel testing setup clearly showing it was nothing but #2 diesel in the tank.

Gonna take the HPFP apart this evening.

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From everything in any of the posts, ever, on this site about the HPFP failure, it has resemblance of being chronic failure and not acute. That means that the failure is due to continuous degradation.

Why is this important?

It's important because the "bad fuel" will NOT be from the most recent fuel tank. Chances are that it was several tanks ago that started the first domino. Of course the most recent tank shows #2 diesel, and will almost always show #2 diesel. It's a p!ss poor test that has little to do with actual operation of the vehicle's past.

I really wish people would look past the most recent tank of fuel.

silversx80 said:

I really wish people would look past the most recent tank of fuel.

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Agreed 100% however, to play devils advocate the dealer must check the current fuel in the tank to make sure that it is in fact diesel fuel. What if someones HFPF failed and that person mistakenly put regular petrol in the car and that petrol was still in the tank? Surely that would be cause for VW not to cover the warranty no?

silversx80 said:

From everything in any of the posts, ever, on this site about the HPFP failure, it has resemblance of being chronic failure and not acute. That means that the failure is due to continuous degradation.

Why is this important?

It's important because the "bad fuel" will NOT be from the most recent fuel tank. Chances are that it was several tanks ago that started the first domino. Of course the most recent tank shows #2 diesel, and will almost always show #2 diesel. It's a p!ss poor test that has little to do with actual operation of the vehicle's past.

I really wish people would look past the most recent tank of fuel.

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IIRC, once "bad fuel" is in the system and flows through a HPFP, the pump fails very quickly, like within few short miles driven on "bad fuel". from what I read on the forum, it seems that CR fuel system is way less forgetting compared to older designs.
So the "first domino" is the last one... There is very short time, if any, between "bad fuel" use and failure.

silversx80 said:

From everything in any of the posts, ever, on this site about the HPFP failure, it has resemblance of being chronic failure and not acute. That means that the failure is due to continuous degradation

Click to expand...

I don't agree with this. Most of the failure stories I've read start with "filled up the car, drove for a bit, got a flashing glow plug and check engine light," or "filled up, drove a bit, stopped the car and it would not restart."

Not saying it isn't a progressive failure, but it seems that the failure event frequently occurs right after getting new fuel.

I think it is just a matter of time now before VW has to rightfully own up to this HPFP concern and take care of the issue and not just perform a band aid fix.

Personally, if I owned a new TDI Sportwagen and I had this issue occur and VW denied responsibility; I would be calling Chris Cuomo at ABC News.
I believe he just opened the national news story on BMW and their HPFP failures on the 335. Perhaps he can bring this to light.

Thanks
Deming

pawel said:

IIRC, once "bad fuel" is in the system and flows through a HPFP, the pump fails very quickly, like within few short miles driven on "bad fuel". from what I read on the forum, it seems that CR fuel system is way less forgetting compared to older designs.
So the "first domino" is the last one... There is very short time, if any, between "bad fuel" use and failure.

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What if you only got a tank of "semi bad fuel" IE bad lubrication. You were able to go through the full tank of semi bad fuel no problem, yet two tanks down the road you're stranded. Kinda hard to peg it down at which tank was bad. I seem to remmeber people having put 200-400 miles on a tank and then having it fail.

I think there may be two modes of failure, the first being the one you pointed out, Diesel Gas mix that will hardly let you move away from the pump, and then the slow contamination fail from either current tank or 5 tanks ago.

nikhsub1 said:

Agreed 100% however, to play devils advocate the dealer must check the current fuel in the tank to make sure that it is in fact diesel fuel. What if someones HFPF failed and that person mistakenly put regular petrol in the car and that petrol was still in the tank? Surely that would be cause for VW not to cover the warranty no?

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Agree. VW, however, is using "bad fuel" as a reason... not gas in the tank. Bad fuel is quite an ambiguous statement .

pawel said:

IIRC, once "bad fuel" is in the system and flows through a HPFP, the pump fails very quickly, like within few short miles driven on "bad fuel". from what I read on the forum, it seems that CR fuel system is way less forgetting compared to older designs.
So the "first domino" is the last one... There is very short time, if any, between "bad fuel" use and failure.

Click to expand...

So, then, how did so many goe an HPFP failure on half a tank burned through? Nobody has tested failure modes on these forums.

IndigoBlueWagon said:

I don't agree with this. Most of the failure stories I've read start with "filled up the car, drove for a bit, got a flashing glow plug and check engine light," or "filled up, drove a bit, stopped the car and it would not restart."

Not saying it isn't a progressive failure, but it seems that the failure event frequently occurs right after getting new fuel.

Click to expand...

There seems to be a fair mix of scenarios, with little trending in any direction (right after fill up, or half-way through a tank). I will state that if it is the most recent tank, then the fuel could be tested for all perameters (lubricity, content, particulates, pH, etc) that would be out of ATSM spec for diesel.

Adding this . .



The first HPFP failure I read about was the PM magazine report of the
failure of their test-car in the June 2009 issue IF I recall correctly?

According to Ben Stewart, the PM editor who drove that vehicle, he said he thought
that it had gotten a bad tank of fuel down in Calixico California and then traveled all
the way to his home in the greater Los Angeles area, and that the next morning is
when their troubles started.
Now this is approximately 221.73 miles, so IF that 'bad' fuel was indeed purchased in Calixico,
that '09 was able to travel some distance before that tank caused said failure,
if in fact that tank was the cause of the HPFP failure?

That car had only 5K miles at the time it quit, so who knows?
A CASE OF: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?



D

Derrel H Green said:

The first HPFP failure I read about was the PM magazine report of the
failure of their test-car in the June 2009 issue IF I recall correctly?

According to Ben Stewart, the PM editor who drove that vehicle, he said he thought
that it had gotten a bad tank of fuel down in Calixico California and then traveled all
the way to his home in the greater Los Angeles area, and that the next morning is
when their troubles started.
Now this is approximately 221.73 miles, so IF that fuel was indeed purchased in Calixico,
that '09 was able to travel some distance before that tank caused said failure.

That car had only 5K miles at the time it quit, so who knows?
A CASE OF: Which came first, the chicken or the egg?



D

Click to expand...

But they (VOA) still warrantied it..... It's too bad we all don't work as car magazine editors.


Just my 2 cents here but as an owner of three diesel vehicles, if you put bad fuel into any diesel injection system it will fail. so are these fuel stations swarmed with complaints from all the people who got bad fuel?

More likely this is just a poorly designed pump for US ulsd but VW can't prove to themselves that it is solely a design problem so they have difficulty warranting it.
We as vw consumers just have to keep stirring the pot because we know our own cars the best.

Been lurking for quite awhile. I'm considering a 2011 Golf TDI, but concerned about the HPFP problem. Just out of curiosity, have Audi A3 TDI owners been experiencing the same pump failure? I've checked the relative blogs, but there seems to be no mention of the issue. Anyone know what's up? Thanks.

Why don't one of you guys who has had a HPFP failure and a warranty denial from VWOA; contact Chris Cuomo at ABC news and see if he will do a story on the issue. Arm him with the information from the TDI club and let him go to town on the issue. Let him contact VWOA and ask some hard questions. I own a Passat TDI, therefore I am out of the loop.

Afterall, 41% of VW's sales right now in North America are for the new TDI Jetta and Golf. Would be a shame to see their credibility and image challenged or tarnished.

Chris Cuomo recently blew the lid off of BMW regarding their HPFP issue forcing them to extend warranty coverage and recall 130,000 cars.

Chris Cuomo is on twitter and facebook or you can e-mail him at ABC news with your story and safety concern.

https://twitter.com/ChrisCuomo

ABCNews.com.

But Of Course . .

Red Rabbit said:

But they (VOA) still warrantied it. It's too bad we all don't work as car magazine editors.

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. . 'they' warranted it! It still belonged to VOA and was 'on loan' to PM magazine for testing purposes.

It was repaired at Santa Monica VW which is the premier VW
dealership in this area if not the N A continent.

BTW, Ben Stewart, the PM magazine editor knew more than he wanted to or was at liberty to say.
I could tell that he'd been told to not talk about the problem when I called him back then.



D

Derrel H Green said:

...
Now this is approximately 221.73 miles, so IF that 'bad' fuel was indeed purchased in Calixico,...

Click to expand...

Approximately?

I don't know if this has been linked earlier but there is a ton of information here about HPFP failures industry wide. One post claims that in early 2010 VW changed pump suppliers. The post also indicates that BMW changed suppliers too.
The sad part is that all of the failures are the same scenario.
Again from another forum and thread this is the common failure as viewed by the owner:

Many dealerships will see the metal in the fuel tank, tell the vehicle owner that they have gotten contaminated fuel from their filling station (which caused the HPFP failure), and deny the warranty.

The above scenario is not what actually happens, and should be considered misdiagnosis and fraud on the part of the dealership.

What really happens is that the HPFP starts to fail, metal on metal contact occurs, metal shavings are produced within the pump and then pumped throughout the entire fuel system (injectors, fuel lines, and yes... the fuel tank).

Volkswagen is having this same issue on their 2.0 commonrail TDI engine, and they're doing their damnedest to cover it up and stick the customer (or the customer's insurance company) with the repair bill. VW has quietly switch brands of HPFP on the newer engines with the hopes that the failures will stop.

BMW was also having issues with HPFP failures on their 3.0 straight-six commonrail diesel found in the 335d and X5d. They didn't give their customers any hassles, but they have since changed HPFP manufacturers.

Perhaps the failures are from poor lubricity fuel in the US, or perhaps they are from poorly manufactured pumps, or maybe it's just a random failure here and there (in the grand scheme of things). Regardless, the vehicle manufacturers need to step up, figure out what's happening and why, and accept responsibility for the failures when they happen (by paying for the repairs through the new vehicle warranty).

My best recommendation for someone facing this problem is to talk to a lawyer and file a complaint with the NHTSA. If enough complaints get filed, the NHTSA will open an investigation and possibly push for a recall for the problem part(s). Having your engine die on the highway is certainly a safety issue, and should be treated as such (hence my recommendation for a NHTSA complaint). If you're proactive, Ford will likely fix your truck in order to save face and keep themselves out of the media (6.0, anyone?).



We are a group of lab rats.

http://www.powerstroke.org/forum/6-4-motor-problems/136579-6-4-liter-failure-6000-mi.html