Engine flush

I drive an '04 Jetta Tdi. It's not my first turbocharged car, but my first diesel. In my other engines, I had an experienced mechanic recommend using a fill of automatic transmission fluid in the motor as an engine flush, ie-drain old oil, fill with ATF, start engine for a short (10- 15 mins ) period of 'idling-only' warm-up, then change the filter, and drain and fill with your motor oil of choice. I drove an '89 Mitsu Mirage, and a '94 Eagle Talon AWD both more than 120k km's each, doing the ATF flush every 40K km's or so. Never had any adverse effects, and under the valve cover and the oil-pan were shiny-clean after this treatment. Any thoughts/concerns ? Anyone else hear or do such a treatment to a Tdi motor ? And, no I haven't done it yet to mine.

Ohhh, I don't think I would do that. I think its a marginal process in a gasser but in a 20 to 1 Compression diesel and all the forces that go along with that.... I would be very concerned about shearing the atf film. If I wanted to flush, and the temp was above 60 deg or so, I would drain, refill with a high quality dyno diesel oil like Rotella, run for half hour, drain again and refill with a 505 type Synth.

Just make sure you use oil meeting AND VW502.00. That prevents sludge from forming down so you won't need to do such strange procedures to 'flush it'

Hid, he has a PD. 505.01 5w40 or CI-4+/CJ-4 5w40 (not proper per the book, but proven to work)

Bob_Fout said:

Hid, he has a PD. 505.01 5w40 or CI-4+/CJ-4 5w40 (not proper per the book, but proven to work)

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I know. That's why I told him to use some oil which also (but not only) meets VW502.00. The 'AND' in my previous post might be misunderstood

Running an ATF in a PD might be.. at least.. Risky

Yeah, as long the correct oil has been used at the correct intervals, there is no need for a flush.

ATF in any TDI would be like a train wreck

Use a synthetic diesel rated oil and sludge will never build up. 'IF' your TDI was run on non-synthetic oil, then I would switch over to a synthetic diesel oil and change it at say ~1000 miles, use that as the engine flush . That's what I did when I had my old MB 85 300D.

I've never seen oil sludge in a TDI unless the owner used WVO/SVO (grease) for fuel.

Garythiv said:

Anyone else hear or do such a treatment to a Tdi motor ? And, no I haven't done it yet to mine.

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My TDI has over 165,000 on it and has never been "flushed". There's no sludge inside at all. I just did my timing belt and the camshaft and all areas under the valve cover are absolutely clean.

I have never seen sludge in an engine that had the oil changed regularly.....gas or diesel.............


DON'T EVER "flush" ANY engine ........ sludged or otherwise!

If an engine is "sludged" and you put any sort of "flush" solvent in the crankcase and run it, you run the risk of breaking loose a piece of that "sludge" that could block oil flow to a main or rod bearing.

This could cause a bearing to seize with catastrophic results!!


Don't do it!!



Get a new mechanic too!!


Cheers,


Rick

I will give you the same advice for your TDI and for your gasoline engines. None of them normally require a "flush" for the engine or transmission. Open the owner's manual and make sure you are using the recommended fluids and changing them as recommended, maybe a little more often. Most of the time when a shop (usually dealer or quick oil change place) suggest a flush it is nothing more than a profit maker for them.

Use the fluids recommended, follow the recommended service schedule (take note of severe service schedules) and don't worry.

Exceptions: I believe all automatic transmissions should have their fluid "changed" not flushed no less often than 50,000 miles and on most cars the pan dropped and the filter cleaned.

I have an older Honda 250X quad w/ a big bore kit & a 12 to 1 piston. It was always run w/ Rotella T. I was amazed on the teardown to replace a seal, no dirt, sludge, in fact the engine & trans looked like they were just put together run for a few hours & torndown for inspection.

I had a auto trans rebuild on a car we bought used a few years back, the mechanic said if you drive under normal conditions, just change the fluid/filter every 30K & the trans should last the life of the vehicle. 50K later so far so good.

Dave

SaxmanKana said:

I have an older Honda 250X quad w/ a big bore kit & a 12 to 1 piston. It was always run w/ Rotella T. I was amazed on the teardown to replace a seal, no dirt, sludge, in fact the engine & trans looked like they were just put together run for a few hours & torndown for inspection.

I had a auto trans rebuild on a car we bought used a few years back, the mechanic said if you drive under normal conditions, just change the fluid/filter every 30K & the trans should last the life of the vehicle. 50K later so far so good.

Dave

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Comparing a Honda quad to a PD motor is like comparing French Toast to a snickers bar.

LOL

They are both food is about all I can get from it.

Did you read the post? He is talking about putting tranny fluid in the MOTOR...

I've used an Amsoil product called "Engine Flush" before for this purpose. It's like a pint of fluid you add to your engine oil when you do a change. Idle the engine for 20 minutes or so and drain and refill as usual. My understanding is that it's just the additives and detergents that they use in their oils so it should be pretty safe.

As others have mentioned, probably not necessary but if you're set on doing a 'flush', this is probably a safer bet than ATF which I think is like 10 weight or something. BTW - I'm not an Amsoil devotee - I've used Delvac1/TDT all these years. This product just happens to be made by them.

Did you read the post? He is talking about putting tranny fluid in the MOTOR...

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Garythiv said:

In my other engines, I had an experienced mechanic recommend using a fill of automatic transmission fluid in the motor as an engine flush, ie-drain old oil, fill with ATF, start engine for a short (10- 15 mins ) period of 'idling-only' warm-up, then change the filter, and drain and fill with your motor oil of choice.

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I wouldn't do it and please find another mechanic.

You have a "Pump-Duse" (PD) engine which has a very specific oil requirement (505.01) to protect the cam lobes and cam followers ("lifters"). The PD name is used because each injector has it's own injection pump, operated by a camshaft lobe. The cam lobes in PD engines were made narrower than older TDI engines to squeeze another lobe in there to operate the pump-injector for each cylinder. This results in the cam lobes seeing higher pressures compared to older TDI engines. Synthetic oils that aren't up to the task will lead to premature cam lobe and follower failure.

The engine specifically REQUIRES synthetic oil meeting VW 505.01 spec. Using any conventional (non-synthetic) oil is also not an option. Given the PD engines are known to be finicky about oil quality and have specific oil requirements, why would you want to put any non-engine oil (ATF) in there? Makes no sense to me.

If you decide to drain the old oil and fill it with ATF and run it, start saving up $2500.00 or more to replace the cam and lifters after they fail prematurely in about 40k miles.

Seriously, DON'T do it!

Good luck.

ProfBooty said:

I've used an Amsoil product called "Engine Flush" before for this purpose. It's like a pint of fluid you add to your engine oil when you do a change. Idle the engine for 20 minutes or so and drain and refill as usual. My understanding is that it's just the additives and detergents that they use in their oils so it should be pretty safe.

As others have mentioned, probably not necessary but if you're set on doing a 'flush', this is probably a safer bet than ATF which I think is like 10 weight or something. BTW - I'm not an Amsoil devotee - I've used Delvac1/TDT all these years. This product just happens to be made by them.

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In the PD I wouldn't even use that product, I think there is so much pressure on the cam that even 20 minutes without the correct oil could cause some problems. With that I am no longer using a certified oil either but know the risks.

If it were my motor and I wanted to use a certified oil, I would change the oil with a good 505.01 or 507 and test the oil at 5k miles. Either change after you get the results or if they look good run the full 10k.

At this point I would use TDT or Amsoil DEO (which is what I am using, of course neither of these oils are certified to use but many have had great results with them.

ATF works in auto trans.. But as an engine flush, have used in gassers never in a diesel yet. I have even used diesel fuel in a GM 5.7 diesel years ago with no ill effects. The truck had a oil pressure gauge and the press., dropped very little if any with the diesel fuel of about one QT.. added to the engine oil. ATF is a better lub then diesel fuel I believe.I have found that some flushes that one can use as a flush will cut the oil pressure in 1/2 of the normal oil pressure, so beware. If engine has a oil pressure gauge then you can check and stop if pressure dropped too low. Use at your own risk

I agree with everyone else: A) DON'T DO IT; and B) GET A NEW MECHANIC, preferably one who knows his, uh, ass from a hole in the ground and isn't hell-bent on using YOU to make his boat payments.

ATF is 0w oil with very few additives and is probably a dino oil.

Best is to use synthetic oil in a turbo engine, to protect the turbo. Doing the flush may clean out the engine, but will leave dino oil behind that can cause problems with the longevity of the synthetic. Doubt it will clean out the engine any better than synthetic will.

Your mechanic is old school.

milehighassassin said:

Comparing a Honda quad to a PD motor is like comparing French Toast to a snickers bar.

LOL

They are both food is about all I can get from it.

Did you read the post? He is talking about putting tranny fluid in the MOTOR...

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Yes, postings up the page were commenting about not using tranny fluid. So my point was how well regular Rotella-T keeps a motor clean. I run it in my Dodge Cummins as well. I realize one it gas the other is diesel. The Rotella oil is the deal!

SaxmanKana said:

Yes, postings up the page were commenting about not using tranny fluid. So my point was how well regular Rotella-T keeps a motor clean. I run it in my Dodge Cummins as well. I realize one it gas the other is diesel. The Rotella oil is the deal!

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I don't agree that Rotella is the deal. Old Rotella was a great oil, but from what I understand they have recently changed their formula and it does not protect NEAR as well as the old formula.

milehighassassin said:

I don't agree that Rotella is the deal. Old Rotella was a great oil, but from what I understand they have recently changed their formula and it does not protect NEAR as well as the old formula.

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Those claims were never substantiated though.

Bob_Fout said:

Those claims were never substantiated though.

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REALLY?

I thought the UOA's and VOA's were showing they changed? I swear I saw a VOA on it.

milehighassassin said:

REALLY?

I thought the UOA's and VOA's were showing they changed? I swear I saw a VOA on it.

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Yes RTS went from CI-4+ to CJ-4 (almost every HDEO has), but I was talking about the protection afforded.

Deezleer said:

My TDI has over 165,000 on it and has never been "flushed". There's no sludge inside at all. I just did my timing belt and the camshaft and all areas under the valve cover are absolutely clean.

I have never seen sludge in an engine that had the oil changed regularly.....gas or diesel.............
.......

Rick

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Said by a man who's never been sludged.

I'm pretty fanatic about oil types and changes.

suddenly have a SRX caddy with the 6-cyl that sludged in under 6000 hwy miles on a supposed "full-synthetic" valvoline product. Put in a new change of M1 5w30 and holy sh*t and ***? Plugged galleys, crap black oil in 20 miles.

Suddenly you'd want to Auto-RX , lucasoil, even an Amsoil product or do whatever you can to get that cr@p out of your 'case.

Perhaps he'd be best served to run a couple short oil-change cycles first with acceptible mineral-oil lubes over use of any harsh product. Mebby one or 2 changes of Delvac or rotella for 2 or 300 miles would be the best "flush" if he really wants to. Would sure get a lot of the soot out from the system.

If an engine oil pan is already holding a thick layer of goo, the only way to get it out is remove the pan and hot tank it.

Putting ATF in a diesel with slop in the pan assures you that you'll soon have slop everywhere in the engine.

docvb said:

Said by a man who's never been sludged.

I'm pretty fanatic about oil types and changes.

suddenly have a SRX caddy with the 6-cyl that sludged in under 6000 hwy miles on a supposed "full-synthetic" valvoline product. Put in a new change of M1 5w30 and holy sh*t and ***? Plugged galleys, crap black oil in 20 miles.

Suddenly you'd want to Auto-RX , lucasoil, even an Amsoil product or do whatever you can to get that cr@p out of your 'case.

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I don't think we can compare any gasser to a TDI. Diesels do different things to the oil compared to gassers. Apples and oranges. With the proper synthetic oil in a TDI engine, sludge will never be an issue.

Perhaps he'd be best served to run a couple short oil-change cycles first with acceptible mineral-oil lubes over use of any harsh product. Mebby one or 2 changes of Delvac or rotella for 2 or 300 miles would be the best "flush" if he really wants to.

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No non-synthetic (i.e., conventional) lubes are acceptible in a TDI engine that specifically requires a 505.01 spec oil. The special oil requirement for the PD engine comes from the need to protect the high pressure cam lobes from premature wear. So then why would you want to use an inferior oil and risk premature wear? It doesn't take long for a wear pattern to become established from using an inferior oil for even a short period.

Would sure get a lot of the soot out from the system.

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What would any inferior oil do for the engine that the proper high quality synthetic oil which the engine specifically requires doesn't already do?

I agree with everyone else: DON'T DO IT (flush w/non-505.01 oil) and get a new mechanic.

Good luck.

This is as crazy as I would get:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=613819500230207789#

Frankly, I would just do what BKmetz said if you are really concerned.

thanks

Thanks for the responses.

Don't do it. I had a 1994 and never did it. My friend had a 1980 Rabbit 50hp diesel and just changed the oil every 5000 kms. ODO stopped working but he thinks it may have had over 500,000 kms before the body died. Never even drained the manu tranny fluid. Nothing. Just oil changes.

Amsoil engine flush

Reviving a dead post


i just performed the Amsoil engine flush on my 99.5 ALH golf...OMG.
the car has 259k and has been parked for a few years.

ran the engine flush for 15 mins. refilled with the updated CK4 diesel engine oil. and the effect was dramatic. at least for anyone to is in tune with their motor.


it comes highly recommended.

clove5 said:

Reviving a dead post


i just performed the Amsoil engine flush on my 99.5 ALH golf...OMG.
the car has 259k and has been parked for a few years.

ran the engine flush for 15 mins. refilled with the updated CK4 diesel engine oil. and the effect was dramatic. at least for anyone to is in tune with their motor.


it comes highly recommended.

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I would say that your car conditions as described above are a good candidate for an engine flush following the manufacturer instructions. Amsoil (link) and BG products such as BG EPR Engine Performance Restoration (link) comes to mind (I have used and I do not regret it). Here is a link discussing BG EPR and the flushing procedure:

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=414774

I think in general terms it is unlikely it will do any damage to the TDI engine in particular and it might do some necessary cleansing depending on the age and conditions of your car's engine.