2014 TDI Timing Help

Hey all,

I could definitely use some help with the timing on my car. I changed the belts on my TDI and now I can't get it to start. I traced all of the lines and triple checked everything and it's all put together like it was. It had no issues before I changed the belts. My assumption is that something must have shifted a mm when I put it back together causing the timing to be off. It wants to start but just not quite there.

P0016 code came up after this. A quick google search came back as Crankshaft Position...so timing.

Now this is where I need some guidance.

How do I set (or reset in this matter) timing? Can someone point me to a guide on how to set it?

I have come across some guides on how to change your belts but not how to set timing.

I'm trying to understand this from ground zero. I'm treating it as if a belt broke while the car was running (this didn't happen) causing it to be way off. I really want to understand this too which is why I haven't taken it in just yet.

Also, anybody know if there is a guide for this specific model, the CKRA engine? I've searched everywhere, including Erwin documents, and can't seem to pin point anything on this matter for this car. This is the closest I've gotten http://replace-timing-belt.com/how-to-replace-timing-chain-on-volkswagen-golf-vii-2-0tdi-2013/.

Any help would greatly be appreciated! This is my third time swapping out the belts on this car but the first time this happened. I called the dealer and asked them how much to just time it. I even said id tow it apart too and they wouldn't have to put it together either but I got a rough $600-800 phone estimate. I figured I'd rent a car for a few days and try to figure out AND understand it myself. Worst case scenario, I can take it in but I know they won't explain in detail how to do it myself, which wouldn't help me at all except burn a hole in my wallet.

But really though, why is there no guide for this car? I'll keep looking.

Thanks!

ps. I'll also posted this on the vortex so really sorry for the guys there too. Hoping to be pointed in the right direction.

-Josh
josh@joshferrer.com

What method did you use to replace the belt? Did you use the proper tools or did you "mark and pray"?

In this case, your best bet is to lock everything down using the proper tools and start from scratch.

Have you looked at the video on diesel geek that's posted with the timing belt replacement kit? Try watching the video posted here:
https://www.dieselgeek.com/collections/vw-tdi-timing-belt-kits/products/nms-common-rail-timing-belt-kit-for-2012-2014-passat-tdi

Best of luck.
HP

Any thoughts?

I locked it down at tdc, as several guides mentioned.



Aligned everything properly and still won’t start.


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Did you disconnect any fuel lines? There could be an air pocket, if so.

turbobrick240 said:

Did you disconnect any fuel lines? There could be an air pocket, if so.

Click to expand...

No fuel lines were disconnected.

I’m going to reset any codes and see if it’ll start. I suspect that that P0016 code that came up is what causing it to not start, now that it’s all aligned properly. I didn’t reset it so it might just be electronically causing it not to start. It wants to but it just isn’t it.

I’ll keep you all posted Mx


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Okay so I am officially stumped on this one.

Took it apart again, locked everything down and set the timing properly at TDC. Put everything back together.

Reset ALL codes on the car. Cranked car and still won't start. No codes come up now even after it not starting.

Primed the pump via VCDS but can't tell if there is fuel being delivered. Checked the rail and there is fuel pressure. It's almost as if the injectors aren't throwing fuel out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0OJmfvHfNZc&feature=youtu.be

Thoughts?

Sounds like the cam gear isn't clocked right and the cam position sensor isn't letting the car start. Quick and easy (some might say dangerous) way to confirm is to unplug the cam position sensor and see if car starts. If you properly (as seen in photos) locked TDC properly you really shouldn't be far enough off to really do harm in this test.

Conversely, after locking TDC again, loosen the belt tensioner, remove the bottom roller enough that you can slide the belt off, move cam pulley one tooth (probably clockwise) and reinstall the belt, tighten up and try to start car again.

Good luck!

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Mrrogers1 said:

Sounds like the cam gear isn't clocked right and the cam position sensor isn't letting the car start. Quick and easy (some might say dangerous) way to confirm is to unplug the cam position sensor and see if car starts. If you properly (as seen in photos) locked TDC properly you really shouldn't be far enough off to really do harm in this test.

Conversely, after locking TDC again, loosen the belt tensioner, remove the bottom roller enough that you can slide the belt off, move cam pulley one tooth (probably clockwise) and reinstall the belt, tighten up and try to start car again.

Good luck!

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Click to expand...

Thanks for the response!

I set the timing with TDC locked as seen in pictures. Turned by hand. Pins didn't line up 100% again when I locked the crank so I adjusted by loosening the bolts on the cam while it was locked down. Put everything back together. Turned by hand again once again and everything lined up perfectly now. At this point, the cam gear should be clocked correctly, right?

Mrrogers1 said:

Sounds like the cam gear isn't clocked right and the cam position sensor isn't letting the car start. Quick and easy (some might say dangerous) way to confirm is to unplug the cam position sensor and see if car starts. If you properly (as seen in photos) locked TDC properly you really shouldn't be far enough off to really do harm in this test.

Conversely, after locking TDC again, loosen the belt tensioner, remove the bottom roller enough that you can slide the belt off, move cam pulley one tooth (probably clockwise) and reinstall the belt, tighten up and try to start car again.

Good luck!

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Click to expand...

I’m already frustrated with it for the night lol. I’ll try this tomorrow morning.

If I do happen to get it to start by unplugging the sensor, is it safe to plug it back in? What does it mean if it does start while it’s unplugged?

Thanks so much!


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Did you also lock down the HPFP? I dont know if it would make a difference, but I really cant think of anything else if everything was properly locked down.

It looks like the crank is indexed properly. And it looks like the cam is as well.

Nothing was rotated without the belt in place was it?

joshferrer said:

I’m already frustrated with it for the night lol. I’ll try this tomorrow morning.

If I do happen to get it to start by unplugging the sensor, is it safe to plug it back in? What does it mean if it does start while it’s unplugged?

Thanks so much!


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Click to expand...

Definitely safe to plug back I'm after turn car off, won't bother anything and it won't start after you plug back in if that cam sprocket is off.

If it does run/start with the sensor unplugged, you need to adjust where the sprocket "starts" before installing the belt. The sprocket has to be lined up with belt on (we only see pic of it locked TDC and it should definitely move after you install belt).

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Mrrogers1 said:

Definitely safe to plug back I'm after turn car off, won't bother anything and it won't start after you plug back in if that cam sprocket is off.

If it does run/start with the sensor unplugged, you need to adjust where the sprocket "starts" before installing the belt. The sprocket has to be lined up with belt on (we only see pic of it locked TDC and it should definitely move after you install belt).

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Click to expand...

Well, I disconnected the cam sensor and it still doesn’t start. Hmmm


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I'd try bleeding an injector line anyhow. It's easy and has worked for me a number of times. Did you pin the hpfp sprocket too?

The picture you posted...it seems like the cam holding pin is not fully seated. That would indicate that your timing is off?

I've never done the timing belt on a TDi, but I did just watch the video someone else just posted.

And, having read that you re-timed that cam, could it be 180 out???

Not too many things to go wrong on a timing belt swap. This VW procedure has a few more steps than I'm used to. The big thing, to me, is the 2:1 cam to crank ratio and making sure you have them correctly in phase.

turbobrick240 said:

I'd try bleeding an injector line anyhow. It's easy and has worked for me a number of times. Did you pin the hpfp sprocket too?

Click to expand...

I did that as well.

HPFP was locked as well.


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c3kTDi said:

The picture you posted...it seems like the cam holding pin is not fully seated. That would indicate that your timing is off?

I've never done the timing belt on a TDi, but I did just watch the video someone else just posted.

And, having read that you re-timed that cam, could it be 180 out???

Not too many things to go wrong on a timing belt swap. This VW procedure has a few more steps than I'm used to. The big thing, to me, is the 2:1 cam to crank ratio and making sure you have them correctly in phase.

Click to expand...

The pin was all the way in and definitely not moving. Hard to tell by that photo. I’m using the metal nerd set, which isn’t a straight pin with the ball at the end like the VW ones. I felt pretty solid with the pin.

Now, it being 180 off is not something I have ruled out yet. When I checked the timing, it was off by a hair then adjusted it accordingly, as seen above in previous posts.

I left out of town for a few days. My dad mentioned that he attempted to get it started. Now I trust my dad that he said he didn’t move anything but maybe he moved something and didn’t realize it, causing it to be 180 off?

What would happen if I lock the cam but rotate the crank 1 turn (360 degrees)? Line everything up at TDC again. Turn it by hand to make sure it moves then crank it?


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I'm curious, did you ever get this fixed?

So, here’s an update and it isn’t good.

I could not get it started at all. Unplugged the cam sensor, checked fuel pressure, checked everything and it all was good. Checked the timing once again, turned by hand and all good. Compression was there and everything was good. Still nothing. I decided to take it in to the dealer since at this point I exhausted everything I knew and maybe they could get it started.

I take it in and of course they charge their diagnostic fee to which I agreed.

The following day they called and said it wouldn’t start because the timing was off. It would be $800 to time it (I know, ridiculous!). I assured them it was timed properly but if it meant I could get them to start it then sure, why not at this point. I said, “sure but I 100% promise it will be timed properly to spec.”

No call for 3 days.

They call and say, “well, you were right about the timing. It was spot on...but we still can’t get the car started.” So at this point, they’re where I’ve been at. He said they were going to take the pan off just to see if they see anything unusual. They said they’d do it no charge.

I get a call 2 days later and it isn’t good. They found small metal pins in the pan as well as metal shavings in the oil. Keep in mind, the car hasn’t started at all.

I went by the dealer because I wanted to see for myself what they were talking about. Sure enough what I saw was what they described but they have no idea where those pins are from. The service guys said I’d most likely need a new engine from whatever this is.

This car is a CPO so at that point I asked what can be done under the CPO warranty (it’s the only reason why I took it to the dealer in the first place for those wondering). They said they would find out because I said the CPO warranty said it covers the engine.

I get a call the next day saying that the VW warranty would cover the engine BUT for the techs to check for signs of detonation, ie valve bending because if they find that, the warranty won’t cover it. IF it is a bent valve, they won’t cover it and I’m stuck with the labor bill which at that point they said it would be $3,000! It was dependent on my approval at that point to start tearing the block down to find the source of the problem. I mentally went through my process and was like it shouldn’t be a bent valve so I approved the start of it because it really could be something that is covered.

I get this message from them yesterday morning, “Hey, So we have the valve cover off and we have found 8 rockers
On all intake rocker valves destroyed which would evidently telling us the timing isn’t right
I'm 10 hours into it now
Do you want me to proceed or stop
Because at this point
It's obvious we have bent valves.”

Photos they sent.



So now I’m stuck. The car is still at the dealer. Now I’m probably stuck with a $3,000 labor bill with the block that’s half torn apart with no certainty what caused this to happen.

How this happened? I have no clue. They confirmed my timing was spot on. Walked them through my process and they said it was all correct.

I was hoping that the warranty would help in this situation to just get the car back running as it was just fine before this.

At this point, I think I’ll just pay that hefty bill and take it apart myself, check everything and rebuild what I have to. Have I mentioned $3,000!! In those 10 hours the whole thing should be apart.

Anyways, that’s where I’m at now. Kinda lame because I still don’t know how this could have happened.


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If you plan to fix it, I'd look for a salvage yard engine to transplant. That would be cheaper, easier, and faster.

turbobrick240 said:

If you plan to fix it, I'd look for a salvage yard engine to transplant. That would be cheaper, easier, and faster.

Click to expand...

That’s exactly what I’m doing!

I’ll have to tear the whole block apart to see what I’m working with then go from there.

I am a little excited though because after I get done rebuilding this one, I can use the leftovers to build something to withstand more power, which was something I was planning on doing in the future but looks like it’s coming earlier!


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I was actually suggesting yanking out the broken motor, and dropping in a good one. No rebuilding necessary.

Just to be clear, you bought this as a CPO.

It worked.

You decided to change the timing belt. ("decided" could mean "had to" or "changed on schedule". Regardless, the emphasis is meant to be on the fact that you did the work, not why.)

It didn't work.

Opening up the engine, the timing, at one point, was obviously off and destroyed the rockers.

If the above is correct, it points to you. Starting (or trying to) with the timing off could do that damage, right? It sure couldn't have been like that and been running...like it was before you started working on it.

Totally sucks. And the 3 grand is just hitting you when you're down.

Pull the head and, if the pistons are okay, just swap in a new head?

Let us know how it goes. You've obviously got some skills. How do you think the damage occurred?

c3kTDi said:

Just to be clear, you bought this as a CPO.

It worked.

You decided to change the timing belt. ("decided" could mean "had to" or "changed on schedule". Regardless, the emphasis is meant to be on the fact that you did the work, not why.)

It didn't work.

Opening up the engine, the timing, at one point, was obviously off and destroyed the rockers.

If the above is correct, it points to you. Starting (or trying to) with the timing off could do that damage, right? It sure couldn't have been like that and been running...like it was before you started working on it.

Totally sucks. And the 3 grand is just hitting you when you're down.

Pull the head and, if the pistons are okay, just swap in a new head?

Let us know how it goes. You've obviously got some skills. How do you think the damage occurred?

Click to expand...

Oh yeah, totally. I am not disagreeing with you one bit. At the end of the day no matter how you look at it, it all points to me regardless because it was working before and not after. Obviously something at home caused this to happen and I simply would like to know what it was.

I started off with asking could damage occur with the timing off simply because I was stumped. I always have to start from square one when trying to understand how it all works and for me that’s one of those things. It’s silly but I’m one of those guys that knows that the stove is hot when it’s on and damage can occur when you put your hand on but is going to ask anyway what happens to your hand when you stick it on there and leave it.

I realized I’m just attached to my vehicles, especially when I take care of them, but it is what it is and you move forward.

That’s what I was going to do this week. Just check everything myself to see what needs to be swapped out.

I’ll keep you guys posted. Like I said, I realized I’m attached to my car which is why I got all butthurt at first but now I’m excited to get this thing back to running.

As to how it occurred, I honestly don’t know. I locked everything down, changed the belt, turned it by hand, then made some minor adjustments to lock it down again, turned by hand again, everything lined up perfectly then cranked it. Nothing after that. No weird noises or anything that would have led me to think that something broke. The car hasn’t run at all which is why I was stumped.

I have definitely learned that these diesel engines are finicky.

Anyways, hopefully I’ll get it up running in the next couple of weeks once I asses everything and get it all in.

ps. I used article D3E803C0E4F off of Erwin for reference on the timing belt.


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Call and talk to the dealership, find out what the bill is, if you take it right now as it sits. Acquire another engine, take them the engine, have them install the new belt and accessories. The install engine. Now the issues are this, anything related to that engine will NOT be covered under the cpo... you may have to have the dealership install and acquire tge replacement engine for it to be covered, which depending on how much warranty you have left may be of no concern. Not sure how it affects the emissions warranty.

06bluebeetletdi said:

Call and talk to the dealership, find out what the bill is, if you take it right now as it sits. Acquire another engine, take them the engine, have them install the new belt and accessories. The install engine. Now the issues are this, anything related to that engine will NOT be covered under the cpo... you may have to have the dealership install and acquire tge replacement engine for it to be covered, which depending on how much warranty you have left may be of no concern. Not sure how it affects the emissions warranty.

Click to expand...

If I’m understanding you correctly, you’re saying acquire an engine and have them install it?

Definitely not doing that. Ridiculously expensive to just breathe at the dealer.

The 2 year unlimited miles TDI CPO warranty is up in May so it’s not worth it anymore. The car already has about $6k in CPO warranty work done to it already as it is, including a new mechatronic unit. I took it back to the dealer about 6-7 times literally right after buying it because it just never sat right and had all sorts of problems.

Im calling it quits while I’m ahead (or behind depending on how you look at it) and just paying the bill now and bringing it home. I’m looking for another engine and am going to swap it out and go from there.


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I said have the dealership install the timing belt kit on the new engine. Then either you or them install engine in the car. I saw someone go down the same path that you have done, except the car was an 11/12 golf tdi, his saving the labor of the dealership installing the timing belt kit (around the time that people had the $1000 vw gift cards, cost him around $5000 as well as being without the car for 3-4 months after playing with it himself for awhile, going to an independent shop, then to a dealership. I’m a diy girl, but that’s way beyond me.

Just made a new thread since I can’t get the fuel pump to turn on to prime it before cranking the engine.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=505449

Update: swapped a motor in with 19k miles on it. Everything is good to go! Just trying to get the pump to turn on so I can crank it.





This was fun but man, a lot of work!


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now pull the head on the other motor and check valves. im curious.

DivineChaos said:

now pull the head on the other motor and check valves. im curious.

Click to expand...

This.