APR Tuning now offering a tune for 2.0 CR TDIs!

turbofan said:

Joking, right? Sorry, new around here and I don't know your personality.

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No not really, just asking if anyone knows how these tunes work.

Consider this;
Let's say a stock CR 2.0 has 16lbs of boost at 2k rpm.
And the APR test TDI had 20lbs of boost at 2k rpm (for whatever reason).
If the APR tune says give 24lbs of boost at 2k under full throttle, then the final HP number should be the same for both engines, no?
Of course this would also apply to fuel maps (and any other parameter that the ECU tune changes).

I just think they made a poor choice for a test vehicle.

skramer said:

Doesnt matter if his numbers are inflated or not...The entire purpose of dyno's are to compare gains, not post a number. If your on a heart breaker, and you gain 50whp...you gained 50whp.
But what isnt relievant is the fact we are comparing a Tune that requires you to remove the emmissions systems to a tune that does not require this. As well I find it irrelievant to compare S1 tune that requires DSG tuning vs one that does not....
APR CR140 Tune- 17whp/46wtrq peak gains are claimed with 27whp/50wtrq largest over stock gains under 3k. Does not require DSG tuning to achieve its numbers
Malone CR140 S1 Tune-20whp/62wtrq peak gains are the claimed. Requires DSG Tuning to achieve those numbers (so another $500)
Its easy for me to see which makes the most logical sense...and carry's a better name in the tuning industry for tunes that are smooth as factory.

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Where do I start...
"smooth as factory" we have had more than a few customers get DSG tunes ONLY, "due to smooth as factory"
We currently offers Stage 1 and 1.5 tunes that do not require a DSG tune, but you might want one, and you will enjoy it.

The factory DSG software’s torque limitation is below our Stage 1 engine torque. Without a DSG software update you will not realize the full potential of our performance tunes.
Our DSG software update has the following features: Raised torque limit, gear shifts remain smooth, shift points are optimized for faster acceleration, manual kick-down mode is disabled, and in some cases launch control is added.
.

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APR, Malone, and several other Tuners are respected names. There is no need to fling mud or spread misinformation.

I wasn't trying to compare which one is better, i was trying to compare the sheer difference throughout the entire rpm range. Why is the apr tune so laggy???? Also why does it not require dsg tune?? What proof shows it doesn't I mean we have plenty of dsg tdi's that tear them up on stock setup... Dsg tune would be my first tune no matter if I raised the power or not.... And for the ones saying mine were inflated then go talk trash somewhere else... I was trying to show the potential that is capable out of stock exhaust, custom exhaust dpf delete and aggressive with raised safety limits... You think I am pushing my car the way I am to be a jerk and say malones better then all... No!!! I am doing it because 99.99% of CR140 owners are to chicken shet to try anything (not prooven safe) if someone doesn't try it then our damn cars will become stuck in first gear at stage 2 tunes fighting over who has the best 20+ HP gain... I committed to test the reliability of aggressive tuning on stock turbo cause all the potential is pure rumor still and people don't know if the stock EGT limits are there for a reason or just super conservative... The stock turbo when hit with inferred gun sits around 2200 temp on completely stock setup when going through dpf cycle driving in traffic... After dpf was deleted I was getting average temps of 1475 in traffic on the turbine housing then and then straight piped I see average of 900-1000 at the turbo in hard city traffic... These numbers will be different on non cbea engines cause the heat generator isn't hanging off the ass of the turbine... People cry over why push the EGT temps pass 1650 safety margin for defueling but I don't see why we cry over it... The stock setup sees 1900 all the time under dpf cycle. If I trash my turbo testing the limits of it within next few weeks then oh we'll because a larger 65mm gtb2265vk is going in next purely to test the limits of the stock fuel system then my second turbo is being mated to that turbo for a set of compounds of gtb2265vk and he351ve.

Newzboys said:

APR, Malone, and several other Tuners are respected names. There is no need to fling mud or spread misinformation.

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I dont see the mud or mis-information

Does Malone or Revo even offer a 2012 Tune yet?

I do. Yes mud and misinformation.

skramer said:

I dont see the mud or mis-information
Does Malone or Revo even offer a 2012 Tune yet?

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Malone Tuning does offer tunes for the 2012 CR engines, I'd encourage you to inquire with Revo directly, I don't know.


Requires DSG Tuning = Misinformation

Its easy for me to see which makes the most logical sense...and carry's a better name in the tuning industry for tunes that are smooth as factory.
= implied mud


for tunes that are smooth as factory.
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=3876018&postcount=46

Let not drag this out, a thread about APR should be about APR.
I would appreciate the correct information being posted if you bring Malone into it.

Newzboys said:

Malone Tuning does offer tunes for the 2012 CR engines, I'd encourage you to inquire with Revo directly, I don't know.


Requires DSG Tuning = Misinformation

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So the TUNER states on his site
http://malonetuning.com/?page_id=564

Required for all American CR TDIs, all Canadian CR TDIs, and some International CR TDIs with DSG, before using any of our performance engine tunes. The factory DSG software’s torque limitation is below our Stage 1 engine torque. Without a DSG software update you will not realize the full potential of our performance tunes.

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And you state otherwise. I'm going with what the tuner states. I realize you dont have to get the DSG tune, but to get his advertised numbers (which is what we are comparing), you need the DSG tune.

Its easy for me to see which makes the most logical sense...and carry's a better name in the tuning industry for tunes that are smooth as factory.
= implied mud

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Logical sense...Save 500 for a tune that produces 3whp less. Especially for those stuck with DSG (Audi A3's). APR does carry a great name in the tuning industry, not even just in the VAG community. How well does the Malone perform w/o DSG tune? What are the gains so we can compare apples to apples? He clearly states on his site not to expect the advertised gains w/o a DSG tune, while APR clearly states you do not need DSG tune to achieve the advertised results.

Unlike many other TDI offerings on the market, APR’s ECU Upgrade DOES NOT REQUIRE DSG Software to take advantage of large increases in torque. The APR ECU Upgrade comes Fully Loaded with the following APR EMCS Program Switching Programs and Features: Stock Mode, APR Performance Mode, APR Fault Code Erase, APR Security Lockout and APR Anti-Theft

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So you can claim mud/mis-information...But obviously nothing I have posted in inaccurate, nor is misleading. I'm trying to encourage the people comparing numbers to compare apples to apples. Not a S2+ dyno that has over 100+ wtrq to a S1 tune. And when comparing the similar offerings from the same companies, remember in order to achieve the Malone numbers, DSG users need a DSG tune as stated by the tuner, while you on the other hand are obviously stating different.

skramer said:

So you can claim mud/mis-information...But obviously nothing I have posted in inaccurate, nor is misleading. I'm trying to encourage the people comparing numbers to compare apples to apples. Not a S2+ dyno that has over 100+ wtrq to a S1 tune. And when comparing the similar offerings from the same companies, remember in order to achieve the Malone numbers, DSG users need a DSG tune as stated by the tuner, while you on the other hand are obviously stating different.

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Facepalm...

skramer said:

So the TUNER states on his site
http://malonetuning.com/?page_id=564


And you state otherwise. I'm going with what the tuner states. I realize you dont have to get the DSG tune, but to get his advertised numbers (which is what we are comparing), you need the DSG tune.




Logical sense...Save 500 for a tune that produces 3whp less. Especially for those stuck with DSG (Audi A3's). APR does carry a great name in the tuning industry, not even just in the VAG community. How well does the Malone perform w/o DSG tune? What are the gains so we can compare apples to apples? He clearly states on his site not to expect the advertised gains w/o a DSG tune, while APR clearly states you do not need DSG tune to achieve the advertised results.



So you can claim mud/mis-information...But obviously nothing I have posted in inaccurate, nor is misleading. I'm trying to encourage the people comparing numbers to compare apples to apples. Not a S2+ dyno that has over 100+ wtrq to a S1 tune. And when comparing the similar offerings from the same companies, remember in order to achieve the Malone numbers, DSG users need a DSG tune as stated by the tuner, while you on the other hand are obviously stating different.

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Are you really that dense? Are you a Malone dealer? You are arguing with one.

Goodbye credibility. Hello APR shill.

Bill

Please, let's not let this thread turn into a "my tune is better than yours" thread (whether it be customers or dealers talking). We should all be glad that more choices are available and (more importantly) more dealers are available to tune our cars. Only time and a variety of Dyno runs (on different dynos) will really tell us if one tuner's tune is significantly better that others.

As for the "issue" of DSGs and DSG tunes, or do ECU tunes "need" a DSG tune? This really depends on the individual and what they expect and require out of their car. The DSG controller has the ability to limit engine torque during shifts to approximately 350NM (258 ft-lbs). The more the available torque is above this number, the more noticeable is this torque limiting. This phenomenon has been noticed by users of many different tunes (Neuspeed, Revo, Unitronic, Malone, etc.). Without a DSG tune the ECU will dial back torque just before a shift and then re-apply full torque after the shift. You can either learn to live with this behavior, or you can fix it. There are two ways to possibly fix it: 1) DSG tune, and 2) Make the ECU ignore the DSG controller's request to limit torque. This second method is probably not good for the long term health of the DSG (I don't know about the first). A big advantage to a DSG tune, is that most of them give you back "Launch Control" which VW decided to leave disabled in newer TDIs. Note: I have no horse in this race, I have a manual transmission so DSGs are a non-issue to me.

Have Fun!

Don

Does the ECU have to be removed for the APR tune?

Face76 said:

Does the ECU have to be removed for the APR tune?

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I believe (suspect) that it does. If not, it means that APR has learned (one way or another) one of VW's most closely guarded secrets. The "security program" on 2010+ TDIs that prevents the ECU from functioning if "unofficial" software is detected ("Bricking" the ECU) is not normally accessible via the OBDII connector. However, VW dealers can do this with their computers for ECU updates, etc. So far no tuners have figured out how to do this. Therefore, on 2010+ TDIs the ECU must be removed to bypass/modify/remove this security program. Once the security program is bypassed, the actual ECU tune flash can be done through the OBDII port (if desired). It can also be tuned using the on-board diagnostic port that was used to "unlock" the ECU.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. Note that I said 2010+ TDIs. Most 2009 TDIs can be tuned through the OBDII port and removing the ECU is not necessary. This is how mine was done.

JSWTDI09 said:

I believe (suspect) that it does. If not, it means that APR has learned (one way or another) one of VW's most closely guarded secrets. The "security program" on 2010+ TDIs that prevents the ECU from functioning if "unofficial" software is detected ("Bricking" the ECU) is not normally accessible via the OBDII connector. However, VW dealers can do this with their computers for ECU updates, etc. So far no tuners have figured out how to do this. Therefore, on 2010+ TDIs the ECU must be removed to bypass/modify/remove this security program. Once the security program is bypassed, the actual ECU tune flash can be done through the OBDII port (if desired). It can also be tuned using the on-board diagnostic port that was used to "unlock" the ECU.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. Note that I said 2010+ TDIs. Most 2009 TDIs can be tuned through the OBDII port and removing the ECU is not necessary. This is how mine was done.

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Hmmm every tuner I talked to before I went Malone said they had to have me send my 2009 ecu to them, since when is it accessable through obd2?

storx said:

Hmmm every tuner I talked to before I went Malone said they had to have me send my 2009 ecu to them, since when is it accessable through obd2?

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I know for sure REVO and Unitronic can flash some 09's through the obd port. I'm not sure of the cutoff for what ones the can or can't. The dealers said they needed to see what version of ecu it has.

I wish I could find more info on this... Ima try go local revo to see I think

Newzboys said:

Malone Tuning does offer tunes for the 2012 CR engines, I'd encourage you to inquire with Revo directly, I don't know.


Requires DSG Tuning = Misinformation

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not sure what you mean here? I have an email from mr. malone when I inquired about a stage 1 tune for my '12 jetta. His response was that with my dsg, a dsg tune was REQUIRED as a prerequisite to any of his tunes.

I'm entriqued by apr as they require no dsg tune, have 3 tuners local to me AND have a 6hr test drive. This seems like a nice option!

storx said:

Hmmm every tuner I talked to before I went Malone said they had to have me send my 2009 ecu to them, since when is it accessable through obd2?

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Most tuners want you to send the ECU to them (even 2009s) because it is the only way they can be certain it will work. All CR TDIs can be tuned through the ODBII port (even 2010-2012). The problem is that the newer ones will not run after tuning (ECU is "bricked"). Somewhere near the end of the 2009 model year production, VW added the security software that bricks the ECU if non stock software is detected. What my tuner did was to try to flash through the ODBII port. It worked, my car started, and all was well. If it had not started, they would have had to flash it back to stock to start the engine, then they would have pulled the ECU and done the bench flash procedure. No tuner wants to "brick" your ECU. When in doubt - use the method that you are certain will work. The bench flash solution always works, the OBDII only solution only works on 2009 models. The guy I talked to at Revo said that they have never seen a 2009 that could not be ODBII flashed, but they have also never seen a 2010+ that could be OBDII flashed successfully. I do not know at exactly what VIN the change over to "protected ECUs" started.

Have Fun!

Don

P.S. Once the "security program" has been disabled/bypassed (on 2010+ cars) the ECU program can be flashed over and over through the ODBII port as long as VW does not re-flash the stock programming. If a VW dealer does this, the ECU must be removed again and the security program defeated again.

It's the '10 ECU's that have some extra protection that need to be bench flashed.

For what it's worth I have a APR tune on my wife's 2.0T FSi MKV GTi... While its great, the 300lbs+ of TQ and stock DSG software the tranny jerks hard into 2 and 3 gear when TQ demanded is too high. Shift is so hard sometimes it engages the ESP, it's NOT my tranny as on stock software it shifts fine. I call BS on all their tunes not needing DSG software with high power.

Edit : jerky shifts happen under medium throttle where the tranny shifts around 3k rpm and under boost in full auto "D" mode. If I go WOT tranny shifts fine at higher RPM in auto or manual mode. I have a reason to believe the ECM and mechatronics unit are not liking the extra power at low revs. Car makes full boost by 2k RPM.

I was the first customer at Waterfest to obtain APR's CR TDI tune which might also make me the first customer car in the US to own their tune (not including test vehicles of course). So far, I am very impressed with what they have done with the software. It has really woken the car up and I'm loving the increased performance. Drives as good or better then stock.

I can't comment on any kind of fuel efficiency increase as I've been a little heavy on the right foot lately, lol.

I have noticed a few times (not every time) in D with TCS enabled, the dreaded torque limiting feature of the ECU/DSG software. I have yet to have it happen with the car in S or manual since the rev-limit is increased a bit.

For what it's worth, I'll have a little video coming in the near future just for fun of my brothers 2010 TDI Cup 6MT with Malone stage 2 software, PDE DPF delete, PDE catback exhaust and AFE intake vs. my 2010 DSG sedan, APR stage 1, Neu-speed intake and AFE cat-back exhaust. His sounds better without a doubt but mine smells better, lol.

AMD: Thanks for getting the tune and your info on it!
sounds like its a solid tune and being DSG it seems might be better so we can get more info on it. Like you said keeping it in S mode seems the best.
Also can not wait for the vid to come out since i have almost the same setup as your brother and would like to see Malone vs APR.

I hope my brother will get the APR tune on his Golf so we can make a vid as well.

So apparently the APR tune could use some DSG love as well, lol.

Not sure what the excitement is all about. Malone has had a tune for the CR's for over a year.

Scott_DeWitt said:

Not sure what the excitement is all about. Malone has had a tune for the CR's for over a year.

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This ^

March of 2009 I think he tuned his first CR

KraftwerkB6 said:

AMD: Thanks for getting the tune and your info on it!
sounds like its a solid tune and being DSG it seems might be better so we can get more info on it. Like you said keeping it in S mode seems the best.
Also can not wait for the vid to come out since i have almost the same setup as your brother and would like to see Malone vs APR.

I hope my brother will get the APR tune on his Golf so we can make a vid as well.

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No problem at all!

LNXGUY said:

So apparently the APR tune could use some DSG love as well, lol.

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I don't think it'd hurt but not necessary as I found that S/Manual resolve the issue.

Scott_DeWitt said:

Not sure what the excitement is all about. Malone has had a tune for the CR's for over a year.

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Options.

Don is correct regarding the fact that most factory DSG software have a 350Nm (258ft-lb) limiter. I have experimented with more than 350Nm Engine torque in a few CR TDIs with factory DSG software: I felt hard shifts (jerks) in a 2009 TDI in all D/S/M modes, occasional hesitation during D mode shifts in a 2011 TDI, and smooth shifts in a 2012 TDI. Not all 2012 TDIs may have smooth shifts though. Shift quality seems to vary a little from car to car. Each model year TDI has a handful of different DSG software versions.

Some customers have reported that an upgraded DSG software still feels smoother even with stock ECU. Shifts feel more consistent and quicker as well. Besides raising the torque limiter in the DSG software, I also adjust the clutch pressure to accommodate the increased torque. The shift points are increasingly lowered as the gear number goes up. A tuned HP curve usually starts dropping before 4000 RPM, but the stock shift points are still ~4500 RPM in some cars and the HP loss can sometimes be felt. Automatically shifting at 4200 RPM or earlier keeps the car in its peak HP band for a faster overall acceleration. We're not the only company that saw the benefit in lowering DSG shift points at WOT.

A couple customers who had their modified DSG tunes wiped out by a VW dealer DSG update all said that they immediately noticed degraded performance or shift quality.

I believe that updating both the ECU and DSG controllers to work together ensures a premium driving experience (as good as factory or better, in all DSG models) with a very broad torque curve. That said, I understand that some CR owners are looking for a simple instant gratification with minimal expense. Therefore I may very soon develop a new version of the Stage 1 ECU tune that does not require a DSG upgrade and respects the factory 258ft-lb torque limit, with guaranteed shift smoothness in all DSG models.

Mark@MaloneTuning said:

Some customers have reported that an upgraded DSG software still feels smoother even with stock ECU. Shifts feel more consistent and quicker as well.

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I briefly had your DSG tune with an ECU that was for the most part stock. (Stage 2 now)

The smoothness in shifting is night and day.

Mark@MaloneTuning said:

Don is correct regarding the fact that most factory DSG software have a 350Nm (258ft-lb) limiter. I have experimented with more than 350Nm Engine torque in a few CR TDIs with factory DSG software: I felt hard shifts (jerks) in a 2009 TDI in all D/S/M modes, occasional hesitation during D mode shifts in a 2011 TDI, and smooth shifts in a 2012 TDI. Not all 2012 TDIs may have smooth shifts though. Shift quality seems to vary a little from car to car. Each model year TDI has a handful of different DSG software versions.

Some customers have reported that an upgraded DSG software still feels smoother even with stock ECU. Shifts feel more consistent and quicker as well. Besides raising the torque limiter in the DSG software, I also adjust the clutch pressure to accommodate the increased torque. The shift points are increasingly lowered as the gear number goes up. A tuned HP curve usually starts dropping before 4000 RPM, but the stock shift points are still ~4500 RPM in some cars and the HP loss can sometimes be felt. Automatically shifting at 4200 RPM or earlier keeps the car in its peak HP band for a faster overall acceleration. We're not the only company that saw the benefit in lowering DSG shift points at WOT.

A couple customers who had their modified DSG tunes wiped out by a VW dealer DSG update all said that they immediately noticed degraded performance or shift quality.

I believe that updating both the ECU and DSG controllers to work together ensures a premium driving experience (as good as factory or better, in all DSG models) with a very broad torque curve. That said, I understand that some CR owners are looking for a simple instant gratification with minimal expense. Therefore I may very soon develop a new version of the Stage 1 ECU tune that does not require a DSG upgrade and respects the factory 258ft-lb torque limit, with guaranteed shift smoothness in all DSG models.

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Straight from the horse's mouth! Thanks for clearing that up, Mark!

I'm getting the APR tune Tuesday morning. I will circle back with feedback.

You probably don't have time for a before dyno, but it would be great if you got a dyno after. It would add to the data base here. Dynos for CR cars are pretty scarce.