1.9tdi + P7100 picture.

WarmStart

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Hello

I know wrong place for this post but this is best place to find this picture.
SORRY!!!

Some years ago there was some pictures 1.9 engine with P7100 injection pump. Does someone have this picture or even maybe car owner is in this forum.
 

Roost

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1.9 alh
The amount of torque to turn a p-pump may out weight the fueling potential for such a small displacement engine. Would be cool to see though.


 

andy2

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Bowmanville,Ontario,Canada
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13 Jetta,94 Golf drag car 585bhp,Samurai buggy BHW 300bhp,97 Ram cummins
I'm know you've seen my p3000 setup before.I now have some timing notches ground into the plungers.






As for a 4cyl p7100,Tdiclub user "krdmachine" was going to build a tdi with a 4cyl p7100 when I last talked with him somewhat recently.
 

Roost

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I'm know you've seen my p3000 setup before.I now have some timing notches ground into the plungers.






As for a 4cyl p7100,Tdiclub user "krdmachine" was going to build a tdi with a 4cyl p7100 when I last talked with him somewhat recently.

Absolutely absurd, I love it! Are the notches ground to advance or retard and at a particular rack travel? Is the cam a custom profile to fire off in pairs like that?
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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02 golf ALH
andy, you should update your thread sometime :p

ETA: been thinking on the inline pump thing lately, more biased toward an EDC governed MW pump made of mercedes bits with 10mm elements from a DT
but it'll likely get absolutely nowhere, the lack of timing advance is a real downer to me. Oh and before the H-pump is mentioned, any idea how the heck to control one?
 
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andy2

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Absolutely absurd, I love it! Are the notches ground to advance or retard and at a particular rack travel? Is the cam a custom profile to fire off in pairs like that?
The notching on the plungers is for advancing the timing as rack travel increases.Really it will only be used for engine start up/warn up and staging at the dragstrip. Its a crude way of doing it however it will allow my new build to possibly start without ether and less smoke while warming up.Hopefully it will let the turbo's spool up a little earlier too.The tractor pulling crowd has been using this idea for a long time now.

WarmStart has a p7100 with timing advance on the plungers also.He kind of gave me the push to go ahead and do it.

The injection lines are paired however the pump turns at 1/4 of crankshaft speed.Basically the two plungers alternate per injection cycle on each injector.

andy, you should update your thread sometime :p

ETA: been thinking on the inline pump thing lately, more biased toward an EDC governed MW pump made of mercedes bits with 10mm elements from a DT
but it'll likely get absolutely nowhere, the lack of timing advance is a real downer to me. Oh and before the H-pump is mentioned, any idea how the heck to control one?
Yes, I should update it soon or start a new one.The deal breaker for my new build was that I had to have some injection timing advance or not build at all.Having a dynamic timing advance would be neat however it would take some work to set it up as it will be fighting the fuel quantity that the injection pump is trying to inject.The flyweights/ramp rate and springs in most of the dynamic timing devices are engineered/tuned to the engine/fuel system.
 

Roost

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Ive dreamed of taking a cam vvt system and some how adapting it to a p7100... pipe dream.


There was a guy on either cummins forum or compD that found a way to control a H-pump or got close, can't remember. Hard to come by H-pump I believe.
 
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PakProtector

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Mk.4's and the Cummins
For even a nutty TDI build, a VP44 would be a reasonable option, IFF one is made for 4cyl operation. IIRC that beast has 3 pistons, and would not likely have a cam, or what ever the equivalent is for 4 cyl work. Now maybe an 8 cyl VP44 running at quarter speed...LOL
cheers,
Douglas
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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MN
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02 golf ALH
The deal breaker for my new build was that I had to have some injection timing advance or not build at all.Having a dynamic timing advance would be neat however it would take some work to set it up as it will be fighting the fuel quantity that the injection pump is trying to inject.The flyweights/ramp rate and springs in most of the dynamic timing devices are engineered/tuned to the engine/fuel system.
I feel your pain there.
My trouble with this stuff is that my golf is my daily driver, not out of necessity (got 5 other $200 cars I could be driving) but because I have no desire to build another car that I won't drive every day. Thus, computer controlled timing advance being needed for long term durability.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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I suppose with just an EDC-governed inline you could run fixed 30 degrees or thereabouts and then just severely limit the fueling through software to control cylinder pressures until it isn't massively over-advanced around 6k rpm or so, then ramp the fuel in to make your power in the window that affords
Run some gonzo-stall converter along with notched elements...
Hey, you're still running an o2j right? Ever thought about building up a 4T65E? they are small enough to fit in a MK3 for sure, and they'll stand up to 500hp with... mostly stock hard parts
Would get you a converter for the whole "getting moving with absolutely no low end torque" problem, and the magic that is hydraulic shifts.
ETA: actually nvm on the 65E I just remembered all the high-power fwd gm guys (all three of them haha) were going to the 4t80s from northstar cadillacs
 
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Markus L

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For even a nutty TDI build, a VP44 would be a reasonable option, IFF one is made for 4cyl operation. IIRC that beast has 3 pistons, and would not likely have a cam, or what ever the equivalent is for 4 cyl work. Now maybe an 8 cyl VP44 running at quarter speed...LOL
cheers,
Douglas
There are plenty of 4cyl VP44:s, for example in Opel, Ford and BMW. Some of 4cyl pumps are with 4 pistons. It's also quite simple to control via CAN if you know what you are doing.
 

TDIMeister

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There are plenty of 4cyl VP44:s, for example in Opel, Ford and BMW. Some of 4cyl pumps are with 4 pistons. It's also quite simple to control via CAN if you know what you are doing.
Yes, it has been discussed here for at least 18 years. What has prevented a successful swap has been a relative unfamiliarity with dealing with the CAN-based computer integrated on the VP44 pump. We've long gone beyond VE pumps to PD and CR, but it would still be cool to see a working VP44 swap into a VE TDI.
 

[486]

Top Post Dawg
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don't see a point unless for some reason the 44 works better at high RPM, the 37 will move enough fuel to lift the head below 4k
all the 44 applications I know of are very low revving, just like the more aggressive camplates in the 37
 

TDIMeister

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Higher injection pressure potential improves fuel atomization, leading to less soot emissions at any given fueling and power level. Radial piston arrangement more robust than axial, especially at high pressures (all common rail HPFPs are basically a form of radial piston pump).

Edit: multiple smaller pistons in radial pump will also certainly work better at high RPM than a single large, heavy plunger.
 
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Roost

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Vp44 in a Cummins applications don't fuel much past 3200rpm. Even with can bus tuning, wire tap, ect. Not say apples to apples, food for thought.
 

Markus L

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Yes, it has been discussed here for at least 18 years. What has prevented a successful swap has been a relative unfamiliarity with dealing with the CAN-based computer integrated on the VP44 pump. We've long gone beyond VE pumps to PD and CR, but it would still be cool to see a working VP44 swap into a VE TDI.
Bosch Interface description / Customer data sheet sure has been helpful when dealing with it. A friend of mine made Arduino based ECU and already got the engine running. This wasn't a TDI but next we are going to test it with my ALH. Progress has been very slow lately though.

I'll continue this discussion in some other topic if we get some results.
 

TDIMeister

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Vp44 in a Cummins applications don't fuel much past 3200rpm. Even with can bus tuning, wire tap, ect. Not say apples to apples, food for thought.
The RPM capability has nothing fundamentally to do with the VP44 itself. The Cummins is a much larger displacement engine, so other factors limit the RPM (stroke length - affecting the mean piston speed; and reciprocating masses).
http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5338812&highlight=mean+piston+speed#post5338812 (and the post that follows it)

As such, the pump cam ring profile is designed to reflect this lower base engine RPM limit. A higher RPM engine application using the same pump family will use a different cam ring profile and piston diameters (e.g. pre-common rail BMW 320d, Opel ECOTEC Diesel), just like an axial piston VP37 will use different cam plates and plunger sizes for different RPM and fuelling applications.
 

Roost

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Just a observation. It's the reason why the vp44 in a cummins application gets swapped for a p-pump in competition use, 280cc of fuel at 3200rpm isn't enough to make big power. Stroke doesn't limit much, these things can safely make power at 4k+ without being balanced, it helps flatten the torque curve to keep things together.


As for internal pump differences, that would make complete sense.
 
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[486]

Top Post Dawg
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I'm not sure of the pump name or info, but there were many cummins 4bt's manufactured with ve pumps.
they're similar to the ones on VWs
it's where we in the US get pump heads for 12mm ALH pumps
 

diffas

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Even unmodified two plunger vp44 from tdi engines deliver fuel atleast to 6k and ~400hp range. 3-plunger 1800bar and 2-plunger 2000bar pumps even more. Harder is to find big enough nozzles to support all the fueling
 

big specht

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How do you post pics on here from your phone ? My buddy has a ALH 1.9 with a pump in his pulling tractor. I was going to post some pics of it
 

WarmStart

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There isn't problem with big nozzles, you can have it done in any size.
There are many ways to make big nozzles.
If you increase pump pressure your nozzles are flowing more.

Some time ago I made nozzle size calculator to got some understanding of spray time etc.
I don't know how or can I upload my formula here but you can download it here.
Fill in green boxes.
 

diffas

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Sure it is possible to order small series from the factory. Price tag must be quite some :p
 

Roost

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Even unmodified two plunger vp44 from tdi engines deliver fuel atleast to 6k and ~400hp range. 3-plunger 1800bar and 2-plunger 2000bar pumps even more. Harder is to find big enough nozzles to support all the fueling

They must have a different cam plate. fill duration is what kills the cummins vp.
 

WarmStart

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I don't know why you need bigger nozzles than 0.360mm. VE pump don't have enough fuel to support even them.
0.360mm nozzle can flow 200cc of fuel up to 7000 rpm on average of 600 bar pump pressure in decent time.
 

diffas

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I don't know why you need bigger nozzles than 0.360mm. VE pump don't have enough fuel to support even them.
0.360mm nozzle can flow 200cc of fuel up to 7000 rpm on average of 600 bar pump pressure in decent time.
I'm totally off topic here since my pump is duration limited, not fuel limited. I have VP44 pump so different than VE and has 1800bar cam/pumphead. 8x0.21 nozzles that I had were limited around 450hp range but they are worn out...and to be honest they had low quality atmize from the start. Not available anymore so therefore looking for something else. There is little progress and about 600hp capable nozzles may have been found and will be soon tested.

They must have a different cam plate. fill duration is what kills the cummins vp.
There must be something different indeed. Unfortunately not much info available. Since Im not aiming for 800+ hp like cummins guys I can probably get away with stock camplate and running pump max 3000rpm. Funny thing is that cummis has only 3-plunger pumps but VAG has 2 and 3 plunger pumps on their V6TDI engines.
 
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