A Tragic Greaser Story questioned.

greasecar1

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Location
MA
TDI
'78 Rabbit Rally ALH, '99 Golf Rally car, '02 Golf, '11 Golf
Recently, here at Greasecar we have received a number of references to a TDI Club post entitled “WVO no more-My Tragic Greaser Story” and though the conversion product used on the vehicle referenced was not produced by Greasecar we decided to at least review the post.

I have finally found the time to take a look at the post in question and am honestly confused as to why there is any suggestion of a fuel or lube oil related failure on this engine. Based on the photos and facts provided it seems utterly clear that this failure is directly attributed to a foreign object smashing into the compressor turbine sending shrapnel into the cylinders of the engine which not surprisingly caused cylinder scoring and piston head chipping.

According to the story the turbo was replaced and the vehicle driven again for an undisclosed period during which its performance worsened to the point when it was decided to pull the head off. When the head was removed it was discovered that the cylinders were scored, pistons were chipped, heavy oil/soot residue was found on the back side of the intake valves and yet again the turbine was shattered! A horrible mess for sure.

There is no question that this engine was totaled but there is no explanation as to why it was attributed to running on vegetable oil and it was stated that the second turbo failure occurred after the SVO system was removed.

I think anyone with any experience with TDIs is well aware that the awful combination of crankcase ventilation and EGR result in heavy build up of intake sludge over time. This condition becomes even more exaggerated when low boost pressure is present and certainly when turbos are leaking oil into the intake and excessive blow-by and low compression result from scored cylinders and chipped pistons.

The real question:
What caused the scoring and chipping? Bits of turbine blades forced into the cylinder of course.

What caused the turbine blades to shatter (twice)? Certainly not vegetable oil.


Let me present a few photos of my personal TDI engine which had been converted for over 3 years and logged approximately 46,000 miles since conversion. You will see no abnormal carbon, resin or coke deposits. No excessive oily intake build up and no cylinder scoring.


<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/polytest091.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/polytest089.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/polytest095.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>

<a href="http://photobucket.com" target="_blank"><img src="http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd32/Greasecar/polytest097.jpg" border="0" alt="Photo Sharing and Video Hosting at Photobucket"></a>


This is the second converted TDI engine we have torn-down the other had 90,000 miles with only about 20,000 on vegetable oil and was in comparable condition.

I have been a member of TDI club for years and am very familiar with the beast since I have four in my family and have worked on dozens more. VW TDI models are amongst the most popular for conversion to vegetable oil with the Greasecar conversion kit. We have over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion and I can tell you that burning vegetable oil in a properly converted TDI will not lead to the conditions presented in Mr. Roosters post. In addition I find it ridiculous that it is even suggested that vegetable oil use could be related in any way to the engine failure depicted.

If anyone wants more clarification or is interested in presenting more rebuttal I welcome it and will respond to the best of my ability but please back up your position with some actual data. I really want to help dispel these SVO/TDI myths that I have seen here and heard from a handful of folks at TDI Fest this year.

Justin Carven
President
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems
 
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UFO

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A mile high
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2001 Beetle
How about that wonderful buildup on the back of the intake valves? Couldn't have been VO right?
 

sdeck

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Aug 25, 2006
Location
Northern Colorado Front Range
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2003 Jetta, 253K, 01M, DLC520s, VNT-17(sold); 2014 Passat SE 6M, 61,000 miles (Feb 16 buyback date)
Could you clarify how the VO would get into the intake system? Only way I can figure is if it was blowing past the rings unburned due to low compression and building up in the CC oil, then blowing through the turbo seal or CCV. If that was the case, then he was either not purging long enough and VO was leaking past the rings during cold startup or the rings were coked up from burning cold VO in a cold engine.

other opinions more than welcome
 

BioDiesel

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Location
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'98 Jetta
I thought at least 2 pistons showed signs of coking.
If there was coking on all pistons, the foreign object scenario could not explain the coking.

Once the rings broke, excessive blowby produced the gunk on the back of the valves. The question is what caused the piston rings to stick or break?
3 scenarios have been suggested:

1. Coking caused by bad VO system
2. Excessive turbo pressure
3. Foreign objects in the turbo compressor.


I think knowing for sure would require more inspection of the engine.
I think we'd like to determine if the rings were broken or simply coked.
But scenario #3 is the only one which can easily explain the chipped piston.
No one else has explained the chipped piston.
 
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dieseldorf

Top Post Dawg
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ex- 1996 wagon, ex-2000 Jetta
God help us all!

UFO said:
How about that wonderful buildup on the back of the intake valves? Couldn't have been VO right?

:D
 

LurkerMike

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Regular UOA's could have confirmed or disputed this or some of the other theories.

If this is the real scenario, then the UOA's would have shown normal wear metals in the oil up to the first turbo failure. Then if another UOA was done, a sudden unmistakable spike in wear metals would have apparently come out of nowhere.

Unfortunately no UOA's were done so we will never know for sure.

If the old valve cover and CCV puck could be recovered and both opened up for internal inspection, some insight might be gained...

The valve cover has a two piece removable plastic baffle section and some heavy gauge "steel wool" material that would likely still be full of hardened oil "rocks". I open up this section every 20k miles and clean the "steel wool" with carburetor cleaner. I also clean my CCV... and I only run pump diesel, and no fuels that are known to cause crudding of the engine oil.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Justin, Thanks for your input on this fuel choice issue. The more sides heard from the more enlightened we'll all become.
However.... (other shoe dropping)...
My concern is with the appearance of a serious reduction in the 'half-life' or miles until a 50% mortality rate of grease fueled TDI engines versus the half-life of commercial biodiesel or the half-life of petrodiesel fueled TDI.
Your personal 46,000 miles, even if every one of those miles was on grease, is only about one year's use for many.
The second example you mention with 20,000 miles use is no great reassurance to me.
The four examples of failed grease fueled TDI engines I have personally seen inside, and they were by no means all using your system, occurred at an average of about 60,000 miles of grease use.
Whether a commercial kit, or a hastily thrown together home-made lame attempt at saving a buck today, I personally don't trust the concept for TDI, and will not advise anyone to try to see if they get different results.

I realize that my request will mean a lot of data collection for you to comply, but of your
over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion
could you collect and publically post the number of miles those direct injection cars have logged on grease? Simple 10,000 mile blocks would suffice. for example: 250 cars with 0~10k miles, 375 with 20~30k, 210 with 30~40k and so forth. I don't want the idi cars. I don't want the mileage to include miles before the WVO kits were installed.
There are enough statisticians among us to crunch the numbers and the results, hopefully as glowing as you should hope, would silence most of the grease critics.
Me? I'll remain both silent and a critic.
 

sdeck

Veteran Member
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Location
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2003 Jetta, 253K, 01M, DLC520s, VNT-17(sold); 2014 Passat SE 6M, 61,000 miles (Feb 16 buyback date)
UFO said:
^^^^ Blowby and EGR.
Maybe I am confused but if you mean blow by thru the CCV, doesn't that come from the CC-side. Still doesn't explain how the VO got into the CC.
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
To Lug_nut:

I doubt this will satisfy your statistical request but here goes:

1. 4 DI's over 120K on SVO:
http://rapsdb.rapsinfo.de/index.php?marke=&sort=-LaufleistungP%D6L

If you step through the database , you advance 10 vehicles / page.
If you get close to the end, you should get to the point where total SVO mileage ( Laufstung POL) is 20K, 10K, etc..

2. A '96 Passat Elsbett single tank w/ 200K miles? ( sorry, can't relocate pic. )


3. How about 1,000,000 miles??

http://www.eilishoils.com/media/news/charlie_mcd_merc.jpg

"Ireland's FIRST PPO car. A rare article on the 1985 ELSBETT Mercedes and its inspiring owner and pioneer, Senator Charlie McDonald.
Is this a contender for the Guinness Book of Records ? - rumour has it that Charlie McDonald's hand-made ELSBETT 3-cylinder PPO engine has clocked over 1,000,000 miles on PPO !! The car's been to Malaya and back at least once !!"



To sdeck:

That wasn't VO in the combustion chamber. Looks like standard intake gook to me.
Excess blowby forced and excess amount down the intake post CCV.


Fortunately my Elsbett can't read, so I needn't worry about it coming across "The Tragic Greaser Story" and giving up the ghost the next day. Turned 68K today.
 
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Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
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Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I've had my hands full, but I was invited to give my input.

First off.. your pictures. You can’t tell me there is no varnishing, because you aren’t showing the places where varnish accumulates, for example, inside the injectors, under the pistons, on the rods and in the injection pump

Second, the piston you do show is the ‘dry’ one. The one I’m seeing right next to that one does not look at all the same. Perhaps the injector nozzles aren’t working the same in each cylinder? I’m seeing signs of an oily-looking, crusty piston.

Let’s see the rest of the pistons. As a matter of fact, remove them and let’s see the bottom end. Sorry to be so suspicious, but the problem with Andy’s car was NOT EVERY PISTON. #1 and 2 were doing fine. This is not a case of getting three out of four making for a good engine. One badly firing injector can take your engine OUT.

Third… accusing the turbo for being the problem is totally bogus… you haven’t experienced the forensics of the typical turbo failures to make such a statement.

Since I was the one doing the tear-down and replacement of DuluthRooster's engine, and have several other destroyed WVO engines on my shelves, I can tell you distinctly that the outcome that I found in Andy's car is not so very uncommon among grease cars. I would not argue that there are substantial faults that I would lay at the feet of Andy, most particularly the fact that the removal of water and glycerin were below par.

But to say that the TDI is the IDEAL vehicle to perform a waste oil modification to, I would totally disagree. Even if the WVO is properly dried and the glycerin is removed and it is thinned to a better consistency ( the three big killers), you still have questions of seal damage, injection problems, varnishing, lubricity... I'm sure there's more, but for now, that is enough.. that will keep the engine from performing for an extended life under the care of most novice WVO users. Lets' face it...the worst you get most of the time when buying 'bad diesel' is a load of water. There are several things that can get you with WVO that can ruin an engine.

I don't want to point any fingers about Andy’s second turbo, but as for me, it appeared that a foreign object got in there and took it out. There have been theories floated that the excessive oil consumption was the culprit, but that seems a bit far-fetched. Andy wasn't adding a quart every hundred miles... he drove 750 miles from his place to mine without losing enough oil to matter.

And the blown-out pieces of piston I have seen before, albeit in a different format. But the oil and water mix was a similar engineering problem I had many years ago. Water trapped between the piston rings and piston when brought to compression and enough heat caused an explosion of steam. That is what shattered out pieces of the pistons.

There were no broken rings. Instead, they had enough WVO that never got burned in the cylinders that it ran over the edge of the piston and coked the rings up until they stuck. When that occurs, it's an easy thing for the WVO to mix with the engine oil and do all sorts of damage.

After all, the reason we all are using the expensive synthetic oils is mostly for the higher temps going through the turbo. The CC oil can hit 800 degrees going through the turbo. Synthetics come out the same as they went in.

But homogenize some WVO that is sneaking past the rings into your oil and that stuff cokes up at about 300 degrees. Is it any wonder that many of the WVO systems I've seen blew up at the turbo? Not at all...

Then you exacerbate the problem by trying to get as much as you can out of an engine by going to really big nozzles... Thicker fuel and more of it... it does NOT atomize like diesel fuel. I don't care what anybody says. It's purely a matter of physics. In order to atomize a heavy fuel to the order of a lighter fuel, you must apply greater pressures. Quite honestly, I believe that there are some of the bio oils that are superior in cetane and btu's. Why then are larger nozzles used? It shouldn't be a matter of larger nozzles, but HIGHER PRESSURES FOR EQUAL ATOMIZING EFFECT. Actually, I'd rather see the fuel properly thinned.

What is worse, I don't see any truly independent thinkers here. What I do see is the abused test-case of Andy's car, He was using what by all appearances was a very advanced system to burn WVO and it failed. Not only did it fail, but Andy took alot of flack because he was public about it. It caused some infighting and some hard feelings, especially when name-dropping was taken advantage of by competing producers of WVO systems.

Personally, I don't care who uses what for fuel. You can rend cats for diesel for all I care. It's not my fight. But I've seen enough failures to know that I"m just seeing the tip of the iceberg. I have my theories and not only that, but I've physical evidence to back my theories up.

So, here's the upshot... Andy knows that he attributed to the engine's demise. His admission is not to poison any company or their products, nor is it to destroy the credibility of biofuels. Anyone who has had any contact with the biofuels has seen the success stories and the abysmal failures. But to diagnose and do proper forensics, you have to first state the facts and analyze the statistics. That seems to be a very big problem around here. Andy is one of the few who was bold and honest enough to admit he had a failure. I know most of the failures quietly disappear.

Anyone ready to come out with some factual and statistical evidences to support the longevity and viability of WVO? How about the failure rate? I’ve a feeling you’ll only get the great success stories.

For only 46,000 miles, your WVO engine doesn’t look all that good…
 
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BioDiesel

Veteran Member
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Location
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TDI
'98 Jetta
"But to say that the TDI is the IDEAL vehicle to perform a waste oil modification to, I would totally disagree. Even if the WVO is properly dried and the glycerin is removed and it is thinned to a better consistency ( the three big killers), you still have questions of seal damage, injection problems, varnishing, lubricity... I'm sure there's more, but for now, that is enough.."

Plenty wrong in that statement. Glycerin, seals, lubricity.
But hey, not everybody has hours to spend learning about SVO.


I don't buy the "steam fractured the piston" argument.
One guy intentionally injects water into his WVO conversion, and has been doing so for years for more performance improvements. Plus I would expect that the steam formed at the moment it was injected. Others state that this explosion erodes the injectors tips. From the earlier reports, no one mentioned damaged injector tips.


"How about failure rate?"
http://www.vegetableoildiesel.co.uk/fuelsdatabase/database/index.php
[You can toss 42% of the reported failures out because they're using Lucas ip's, a known inferior pump for SVO.]

".. only get the great success stories."
This link is on my website and has been posted here many times:
http://translate.google.com/transla...&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=/language_tools
 
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Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
I don't see that glycerin should be in the engine. I don't think water should be in the engine. When you've taken apart a VWO pump and seen the brown goo, it came from someplace...

I notice you make no mention of failure rates to success rates. I'm sure there is a learning curve to meet for the novice WVO'er. Where are the stats? BURIED?

But when you have the engineering background and the water is not INJECTED, but LATENT it makes a huge difference.

That principle works regardless if it is a WVO, Gas or Diesel, but the higher pressures of a Diesel iwll enhance the problem.

Youi say there are errors in what I say, but give nothing but the negative feedback with no substantiation. I could say, "I just think you're wrong." That proves nothing.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
BioDiesel said:
To Lug_nut:
I doubt this will satisfy your statistical request but here goes:
1. 4 DI's over 120K on SVO:
http://rapsdb.rapsinfo.de/index.php?marke=&sort=-LaufleistungP%D6L

2. A '96 Passat Elsbett single tank w/ 200K miles? ( sorry, can't relocate pic. )

3. How about 1,000,000 miles??
http://www.eilishoils.com/media/news/charlie_mcd_merc.jpg
replies:
1. I stopped after the first dozen or so pages to post. I may get back to the site to collect further data, but based on the preliminary numbers, I'm not overly impressed.
The first 22 TDI engined vehicles listed have an average distance on plant oil of 12,500 miles.
The earliest TDI entry, a 2000 VW A4, has 30k km on oil and a last entry of May 2002.
No updates since 2002 on a car that was but two years old?
Next is a 99 Audi A4, 10k km and a last entry of May 02.
Third is a 98 Land Rover, 9000 km and nothing since 6-02.
95 Passat, 50k km and no report since 7-02.
and on and on.
2. The Elsbett kit is far more involved than a hot oil kit. I'd expect that it would be better than a 'typical' conversion.
3. That 85 Mercedes has an engine designed specifically from the ground up, by Elsbett no less, as a WVO engine. It is not a petrodiesel engine with a heated fuel system.
 

BioDiesel

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Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
Hi Jonathan,

1.
"The first 22 TDI engined vehicles listed have an average distance on plant oil of 12,500 miles. "

Depends how you search. I searched on Laufleistung POL, highest first.
You have to click the column header "Laufleistung POL/km" twice to get it to sort by mileage and then highest first.
Scanning the first seven pages for VW TDI's only I found the highest mileages at
219,000 210,000 200,000 180,000 140,000 and 120,000 km's.



That converts to 120,000 to 72,000 miles., avg 107,000 miles




The database isn't easy to access. I failed to add my TDI twice.

2. Agreed. But of the top 6 I listed, two were Elsbett, one was VWP ( another kit ) and two were DIY.

3. True. But the design is basically a PD TDI with an extra injector.
 
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Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
BioDiesel said:
I searched on Laufleistung POL, highest first.
Scanning the first seven pages for VW TDI's only I found the highest mileages at 219,000 210,000 200,000 180,000 140,000 and 120,000 km's.
That converts to 120,000 to 72,000 miles., avg 107,000 miles
The seven highest is hardly indicative of the average. Perhaps you might wish to use the seven lowest reported distances to bolster the longevity claim.
Or not.
My interest isn't in knowing the one highest mileage veg oil burner out there. My interest is to somewhat accurately decide when the historical data indicates that 1/2 the veg oil engines have stopped running.
 

Franko6

Vendor , w/Business number
Joined
May 7, 2005
Location
Sw Missouri
TDI
Jetta, 99, Silver`
Lug_Nut,

Hear, hear!...

I am NOT against the idea of using biodiesels. So, don't think I'm out there as an ardent opponent to the idea. I WANT WVO TO SUCCEED! I just think someone like DuluthRooster is very much maligned for telling a truth that is very unpalatable for the veggie crowd to hear!

Unless you discover what is wrong, you don't know how to make it right. I've seen plenty of negativesassociated with WVO but not enough positives to cause me to risk involving my diesel in the experiment.

Greaser1... I'd like to see all those pistons, please.

I'll tell you where I think the ultimate failure and lack of reporting is.

The injectors...

If you have a failure of a petro diesel injector, one thing that can happen is you will be pouring a very thin oil into your engine; one that easily vaporizes. But it does NOT coke and the oil is still a lubricant. Don't think for a minute that WVO acts anything like a lubricant in any engine, expecially one that is turbo'd.

Unlike diesel fuel, in a WVO engine, an injector failure can make the nozzle spew a deadly concoction that not only doesn't vaoprize, but makes a heavy, gooey sediment in the cylinder. Imagine if you were to drip excess vegetable oil into a frying pan that is 500-600 degrees for a few hours at a rate faster than it can burn off. That is what you do to your engine when putting unburned WVO into it from a incorrectly operating injector. My contention is that with a VWO engine, OR a diesel engine, it is not IF the nozzle will fail, it is WHEN... with the diesel, it's an irritation and bother...with the WVO, it's deadly.

Like I said; I want WVO to succeed; I do. But don't be shooting at those who bring their failures to the spotlight for examination.

Werner Von Braun, the developer of the modern rocket propulsion system that made the groundwork for getting Man to the Moon, made two statements that I found very impressive...

"You learn more from your failures than your successes."

"Research is what I do when I don't know what I'm doing."

I think you should not be afraid of the failures, unless you can't learn from them. If you can't overcome the failures, then don't promote a bad product or cause.

I want to see a good defense of the WVO idea, but I also want to see an open and honest forum of 'what goes wrong' and how to overcome the problems.

Ok, so let's talk about the failures... It should be ok to talk about the failures...

"RELEASE THE HOUNDS!"
 

greasecar1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Location
MA
TDI
'78 Rabbit Rally ALH, '99 Golf Rally car, '02 Golf, '11 Golf
response to posts as of this morning

UFO:
How about that wonderful buildup on the back of the intake valves? Couldn't have been VO right?

A: No, that wouldn’t be vegetable oil as vegetable oil would not have any means of flowing into the intake manifold. That build up could only be caused by lube oil introduced by CCV or leaking around the turbine axle which was said to be wobbly. You can also see clearly in the photos of the original turbo that there is significant oil residue on the compressor inlet.

BioDiesel:

I thought at least 2 pistons showed signs of coking.

A: light coke will be evident in any diesel engine excessive coke is generally the result of incomplete combustion which could be caused by the low compression reported. Did you notice if the pistons with more coke correlate to the cylinders which were tested to show lower compression?

The question is what caused the piston rings to stick or break?
3 scenarios have been suggested:

1. Coking caused by bad VO system
2. Excessive turbo pressure
3. Foreign objects in the turbo compressor
.


A: The most likely scenario is shrapnel from the compressor blades lodging between the piston and cylinder wall. Turbo pressure is not significant compared to cylinder pressure and should have no bearing and considering the condition of the turbo and the low compression It is unlikely that excessive forced air volume would be a factor.


Lugnut:

My concern is with the appearance of a serious reduction in the 'half-life' or miles until a 50% mortality rate of grease fueled TDI engines versus the half-life of commercial biodiesel or the half-life of petrodiesel fueled TDI.


A: I would be interested in the data you have compiled to present this conclusion including:

How many vehicles were in each test group of engines that met their mortal end?

What is the “half-life” of a TDI burning petrodiesel and who has determined this?

What is the “half-life” of the bio-diesel fueled TDIs and where can I read the test data?

The four examples of failed grease fueled TDI engines I have personally seen inside, and they were by no means all using your system, occurred at an average of about 60,000 miles of grease use.


A: Do you have photos of the engine tear-downs that we could see?


What was the total mileage of the grease fueled TDIs and the nature of their demise?


I realize that my request will mean a lot of data collection for you to comply, but of your

Quote:
over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion
could you collect and publicly post the number of miles those direct injection cars have logged on grease? Simple 10,000 mile blocks would suffice. for example: 250 cars with 0~10k miles, 375 with 20~30k, 210 with 30~40k and so forth. I don't want the idi cars. I don't want the mileage to include miles before the WVO kits were installed.
There are enough statisticians among us to crunch the numbers and the results, hopefully as glowing as you should hope, would silence most of the grease critics.
Me? I'll remain both silent and a critic.


A:I find it bold that you suggest that I spend the time and money to collect data from over 1,000 people then conclude by stating that even in light of that data you will remain a critic (silent, given your post, I find hard to believe).

I am willing to put together a questionnaire and send it out to our TDI customers and am even willing to let some of the skeptics here come up with the questions. (you can post them here but please email them to me to avoid cluttering up the forum, Justin@greasecar.com ). However if I go through the trouble of jumping through the hoops presented and backing up my statements with solid data I feel that it is only fair for those presenting the challenges to do the sam in kind

Frank 06:

I haven’t had the chance to read through your whole post today but it looks like it will take some time to address adequately. I hope to have a response by Monday.

I know that some of you have a strong determination to remain negative in light of any conclusive data produced. However I am willing to spend the time here over the next few months to present information and conduct dialog with any of you who are willing to have constructive and educated exchange.

 

Left Coast Resident

Ub&#7869;r Clubbie
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Apr 23, 2006
Location
San Fernando Valley (Los Angeles)
TDI
2001, 2002 & 2003 Jettas
Franko6 said:
Lug_Nut,


Werner Von Braun, the developer of the modern rocket propulsion system that made the groundwork for getting Man to the Moon, made two statements that I found very impressive...

"You learn more from your failures than your successes."

"Research is what I do when I don't know what I'm doing."
Hullo -- didn't he also make a third statement:

"Once the rockets are up, who cares where they come down?
That's not my department," says Wernher von Braun.

Oh, never mind, that was someone else . . .
 

greasecar1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Location
MA
TDI
'78 Rabbit Rally ALH, '99 Golf Rally car, '02 Golf, '11 Golf
Frank06 response (part 1)

I've had my hands full, but I was invited to give my input.

First off.. your pictures. You can’t tell me there is no varnishing, because you aren’t showing the places where varnish accumulates, for example, inside the injectors, under the pistons, on the rods and in the injection pump.


Let’s see the rest of the pistons. As a matter of fact, remove them and let’s see the bottom end. Sorry to be so suspicious, but the problem with Andy’s car was NOT EVERY PISTON. #1 and 2 were doing fine. This is not a case of getting three out of four making for a good engine. One badly firing injector can take your engine OUT.

The engine is being re-assembled so I hesitate to pull the pistons as they are at 60k with factory assembly. I will do it, but if they are good I will expect you to take back your “For only 46,000 miles, your WVO engine doesn’t look all that good…” comment for putting me through the trouble and post photos of What you ideal “sulfur belcher” looks like. I’ll also take photos of inside the injection pump (top and bottom). What would you like to see from the injectors? I have a set of TDI injectors from an engine which never ran veg and I could photograph the needles side by side and I’ll let you guess which are which. Don’t really see what that will tell us though.


Second, the piston you do show is the ‘dry’ one. The one I’m seeing right next to that one does not look at all the same. Perhaps the injector nozzles aren’t working the same in each cylinder? I’m seeing signs of an oily-looking, crusty piston.


What you are seeing is what happens when water and fire suppressant that have been sprayed into the intake. The engine was pulled after an electrical fire in the engine bay and unfortunately fire hose water leaked into the cylinder whose valves were open.





Third… accusing the turbo for being the problem is totally bogus… you haven’t experienced the forensics of the typical turbo failures to make such a statement.


I certainly have seen and experienced typical turbo failures but I would not qualify the fragmentation of the turbos in question as “typical”. The “typical” turbo failure involves worn shaft bearings resulting in oil leaks and low boost leading to poor fuel air mixture, incomplete combustion and excessive presence of oil in the intake.

Since I was the one doing the tear-down and replacement of DuluthRooster's engine, and have several other destroyed WVO engines on my shelves, I can tell you distinctly that the outcome that I found in Andy's car is not so very uncommon among grease cars. I would not argue that there are substantial faults that I would lay at the feet of Andy, most particularly the fact that the removal of water and glycerin were below par.

I am not accusing Andy of any wrong doing in relation to this engine failure, regardless of how he prepared his fuel it would not have prevented the turbine fragmentation and resulting cylinder carnage. I am interested n learning more about you WVO engine museum, what’s in the catalog?

But to say that the
TDI is the IDEAL vehicle to perform a waste oil modification to, I would totally disagree. Even if the WVO is properly dried and the glycerin is removed and it is thinned to a better consistency ( the three big killers), you still have questions of seal damage, injection problems, varnishing, lubricity... I'm sure there's more, but for now, that is enough.. that will keep the engine from performing for an extended life under the care of most novice WVO users. Lets' face it...the worst you get most of the time when buying 'bad diesel' is a load of water. There are several things that can get you with WVO that can ruin an engine.

I did not say that “the TDI is the IDEAL vehicle to perform waste oil modification” you did, but I will agree it is amongst the best and is certainly the most popular for our customers.

I do not argue that putting crappy fuel into your vehicle is likely to lead to problems whether it is diesel or vegetable oil. The user of the converted vehicle is certainly responsible for dispensing clean dry fuel into their tank as they would with a conventional fuel and the technology exists to do this. I certainly wouldn’t pump diesel fuel out of an open topped garbage can after a rain storm straight into my car, if I did I would expect to have the same reaction as I would doing the same with vegetable oil.

I know that you “still have questions of seal damage, injection problems varnishing, etc., etc.” What are your questions exactly, perhaps we can work to answer them and compare the results with conventional fuel.


And the blown-out pieces of piston I have seen before, albeit in a different format. But the oil and water mix was a similar engineering problem I had many years ago. Water trapped between the piston rings and piston when brought to compression and enough heat caused an explosion of steam. That is what shattered out pieces of the pistons.


Potentially, and I know you saw it first hand so you have a bit better perspective but I’m still sticking with shrapnel carnage.

There were no broken rings. Instead, they had enough WVO that never got burned in the cylinders that it ran over the edge of the piston and coked the rings up until they stuck. When that occurs, it's an easy thing for the WVO to mix with the engine oil and do all sorts of damage.


How many miles did Andy drag that poor car after the initial condition developed? A few hundred miles of driving a vehicle with a blown turbo, scored cylinders and low compression would cause piston sticking and coking regardless of fuel.

In addition, unless you did a mass spec test to conclude that the coke was derived from vegetable oil it is purely speculation for you to suggest that it is WVO.


But homogenize some WVO that is sneaking past the rings into your oil and that stuff cokes up at about 300 degrees. Is it any wonder that many of the WVO systems I've seen blew up at the turbo? Not at all...


300 degrees? What exactly are you referring to as coke? And how would oil coming past the rings relate to turbos blowing up?

We have plenty logs which include regular oil sample analysis don by a CAT lab. I can pull some of the results but according to the lab there are no abnormalities. What would you be looking for exactly?


What is worse, I don't see any truly independent thinkers here. What I do see is the abused test-case of Andy's car, He was using what by all appearances was a very advanced system to burn WVO and it failed. Not only did it fail, but Andy took alot of flack because he was public about it. It caused some infighting and some hard feelings, especially when name-dropping was taken advantage of by competing producers of WVO systems.


I do agree that Andy’s sad story was abused in an attempts to discredit vegetable oil as a viable fuel. I disagree that Andy’s SVO system failed or had any relevance to the engine failure. If Andy is going to take any flack it certainly should not be due to his willingness to try an alternative fuel but I will give him some for trying to blame a smashed compressor turbine on it.

I guess I don’t spend enough time here to be aware of the “in fighting and hard feelings”. I do not see how my attempt to vindicate a competitors product and a common technology as taking advantage of this situation or in what way you think the discussion to this point has created any advantage to my position.

Personally, I don't care who uses what for fuel. You can rend cats for diesel for all I care. It's not my fight. But I've seen enough failures to know that I"m just seeing the tip of the iceberg. I have my theories and not only that, but I've physical evidence to back my theories up.


I think we would all love to see you evidence and it sounds like you may have quite a bit of it on your shelf but I certainly would not qualify the poor “Duluth Rooster” as evidence as you have way too many variables.

I also have seen enough success (at least 100 fold of your failures) and it is my full time job to research and produce the data to support my confidence. You say that it’s not your fight but you certainly seem adamant in supporting your position so if you’re game let’s see some more of your evidence and I’d be more than happy to show you mine.

” to diagnose and do proper forensics, you have to first state the facts and analyze the statistics


Agreed.

Anyone ready to come out with some factual and statistical evidences to support the longevity and viability of WVO? How about the failure rate? I’ve a feeling you’ll only get the great success stories.


I doubt that, happy people are usually busy being happy, it’s the disappointed one who have a story to tell. But let’s see what people have to say.

For only 46,000 miles, your WVO engine doesn’t look all that good…


What’s a 46,000 mile TDI supposed to look like?
 

jobob307

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2006
Location
janesville, wi
TDI
2001 jetta, 2002 jolf
greasecar1 why was your engine apart in the first place? I would love to run wvo but it isn't practical or worth the risk. If you can run with good results great but it isn't the answer for everyone.
 

greasecar1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Location
MA
TDI
'78 Rabbit Rally ALH, '99 Golf Rally car, '02 Golf, '11 Golf
frank06 response (part 2)

Jobob, the answer to your question is below. No, running vegetable oil is not for everyone but there are many who would argue that running SVO is very practical and does not effect normal reliability, even more so if you happen to be in an area such as Western MA where we have industrial grade vegetable oil fuel available at the pump.

I can't beleive I wasted my Friday night responding to all this, I hope it doesn't fall on deaf ears.

Frank06:
Hear, hear!...

I am NOT against the idea of using biodiesels. So, don't think I'm out there as an ardent opponent to the idea. I WANT WVO TO SUCCEED!


Sorry, I must have read the wrong thread.


Unless you discover what is wrong, you don't know how to make it right. I've seen plenty of negative sassociated with WVO but not enough positives to cause me to risk involving my diesel in the experiment.


That is a justifiable position. But are you willing to accept the positive if they are presented in a logical and appropriately documented way?

Greaser1... I'd like to see all those pistons, please.


It’s Greasecar1, and I will only remove the pistons if you are willing to say “thank you, those look beautiful” when I pull them and they are. I will also insist that the cylinder which the firemen contaminated be taken out of evidence

I'll tell you where I think the ultimate failure and lack of reporting is.

The injectors...

If you have a failure of a petro diesel injector, one thing that can happen is you will be pouring a very thin oil into your engine; one that easily vaporizes. But it does NOT coke and the oil is still a lubricant. Don't think for a minute that WVO acts anything like a lubricant in any engine, expecially one that is turbo'd.

Unlike diesel fuel, in a WVO engine, an injector failure can make the nozzle spew a deadly concoction that not only doesn't vaoprize, but makes a heavy, gooey sediment in the cylinder. Imagine if you were to drip excess vegetable oil into a frying pan that is 500-600 degrees for a few hours at a rate faster than it can burn off. That is what you do to your engine when putting unburned WVO into it from a incorrectly operating injector. My contention is that with a VWO engine, OR a diesel engine, it is not IF the nozzle will fail, it is WHEN... with the diesel, it's an irritation and bother...with the WVO, it's deadly.


Blah, blah, blah. I’m not interested in your theories, if you want to make a statement such as that which is written above, please back it up with something other than a comment involving a hypothetical frying pan, or at least drip some diesel in said pan for comparison. We are not talking about frying eggs we are talking about injecting a liquid at several thousand bar into a 1600F + aluminum chamber, no gooey residue will survive that treatment for more than a few strokes.


I think you should not be afraid of the failures, unless you can't learn from them. If you can't overcome the failures, then don't promote a bad product or cause.

I want to see a good defense of the WVO idea, but I also want to see an open and honest forum of 'what goes wrong' and how to overcome the problems.Ok, so let's talk about the failures... It should be ok to talk about the failures...


There is a difference between a turbo failure and a fuel/combustion failure and what we have here is a turbo failure, its okay to talk about turbo failures, they don’t have feelings. If you want to talk about SVO failure then tell me about someone who decided to just poor vegetable oil in their diesel tank and run it without modification or someone who though that running their fuel through their exhaust before their injection pump was a great idea or someone who though that it was as easy as draining the bottom of a dumpster into their tank.

I do not argue that crap fuel is crap fuel whatever it is and I do not argue that there is a right and a wrong way to do things however I do argue with your “injector failures, not if but when” and the very notion that SVO in and of itself is a mortal potion.

I am willing to put my money where my mouth is and I do feel that I am more equipped than anyone else here to effectively address everyone’s considerations so let’s bring them out.

Justin Carven
Greasecar Vegetable Fuel Systems
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
greasecar1 said:
Lugnut:

My concern is with the appearance of a serious reduction in the 'half-life' or miles until a 50% mortality rate of grease fueled TDI engines versus the half-life of commercial biodiesel or the half-life of petrodiesel fueled TDI.


A: I would be interested in the data you have compiled to present this conclusion including:

How many vehicles were in each test group of engines that met their mortal end?

What is the “half-life” of a TDI burning petrodiesel and who has determined this?

What is the “half-life” of the bio-diesel fueled TDIs and where can I read the test data?

The four examples of failed grease fueled TDI engines I have personally seen inside, and they were by no means all using your system, occurred at an average of about 60,000 miles of grease use.


A: Do you have photos of the engine tear-downs that we could see?


What was the total mileage of the grease fueled TDIs and the nature of their demise?


I realize that my request will mean a lot of data collection for you to comply, but of your

Quote:
over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion
could you collect and publicly post the number of miles those direct injection cars have logged on grease? Simple 10,000 mile blocks would suffice. for example: 250 cars with 0~10k miles, 375 with 20~30k, 210 with 30~40k and so forth. I don't want the idi cars. I don't want the mileage to include miles before the WVO kits were installed.
There are enough statisticians among us to crunch the numbers and the results, hopefully as glowing as you should hope, would silence most of the grease critics.
Me? I'll remain both silent and a critic.


A:I find it bold that you suggest that I spend the time and money to collect data from over 1,000 people then conclude by stating that even in light of that data you will remain a critic (silent, given your post, I find hard to believe).

I am willing to put together a questionnaire and send it out to our TDI customers and am even willing to let some of the skeptics here come up with the questions. (you can post them here but please email them to me to avoid cluttering up the forum, Justin@greasecar.com ). However if I go through the trouble of jumping through the hoops presented and backing up my statements with solid data I feel that it is only fair for those presenting the challenges to do the same in kind.
I qualified my first request with the notation that there is an appearance of a reduction in grease fueled TDI's life expectancy. That is, I know, personally, of more dead (killed, I daresay) grease fueled TDI engine before 100,000 miles than of biodiesel or petrodiesel fueled. I know of scores of biodiesel and petrodiesel fueled TDI, and only a dozen or so grease fueled TDI. The percent of grease fueled TDI engine failures before 100,000 miles is far above the percentage of bio and petro fueled TDI.
You undoubtedly know many more grease users than I. I asked that you provide any information you might have. I can only offer the results of the few I know which might be misleading. Maybe I am just bad luck to know. Maybe I'm the reason that the sub-100k failures happen.
You, on the other hand, claim "over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion". I thought you might already have data to back that assertion readily on hand to throw back at me.

No, I don't have pictures. I didn't ask the permission of the car owners, nor of the shops where the work was being done. I do know that I sold one of those unfortunates my complete (minus the injector pump I'm keeping as insurance) spare 1Z engine to replace his 1Z with a holed piston. I don't recall whose kit he was using, but if it was yours, thank you. I have a bunch of money, he stopped using grease, and I have another data point.

Regarding my criticism of grease use in TDI: My first hand knowledge of those four TDI failures I personally have seen, have formed such a bias that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you or other vendors of grease fuel conversion kits can do to change my opinion. My first hand seeing, touching, smelling carries much more weight than any charts or numbers you can provide. To me they will remain trivial anecdotes to what I have seen myself.
Others reading these point and counterpoint claims may not have personal sensory information upon which to form an opinion. To those people, their information from us is second hand. To them it's my claims against your claims.
Since you won't persuade me, you need to concentrate on assuaging them. Your efforts should be directed towards that end.
 

GeneralStark

Well-known member
Joined
Nov 21, 2003
Location
Burlington, VT
TDI
98 Jetta TDI
No, I don't have pictures. I didn't ask the permission of the car owners, nor of the shops where the work was being done. I do know that I sold one of those unfortunates my complete (minus the injector pump I'm keeping as insurance) spare 1Z engine to replace his 1Z with a holed piston. I don't recall whose kit he was using, but if it was yours, thank you. I have a bunch of money, he stopped using grease, and I have another data point.

Regarding my criticism of grease use in TDI: My first hand knowledge of those four TDI failures I personally have seen, have formed such a bias that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you or other vendors of grease fuel conversion kits can do to change my opinion. My first hand seeing, touching, smelling carries much more weight than any charts or numbers you can provide. To me they will remain trivial anecdotes to what I have seen myself.
Others reading these point and counterpoint claims may not have personal sensory information upon which to form an opinion. To those people, their information from us is second hand. To them it's my claims against your claims.
Since you won't persuade me, you need to concentrate on assuaging them. Your efforts should be directed towards that end.
Ever heard of the scientific method? It sounds like this thread is about to take the typical turn for the worse as most SVO related threads here at the TDIClub do. Faith vs. Science.

If Justin's claims are backed up with good science, which they very well may be, it seems that his claims carry much more weight than yours. Sorry, but that's how it goes with science. Just because you think you are right doesn;t make you right.

I don't quite understand why you and others can't engage in a logical and reasonable debate about this subject. Justin is willing to take time out of his I'm sure extremely busy work day to engage in a civil discussion about SVO in Tdi engines and it has to turn into the typical "I just don't think it will work and my ego is bigger than yours so I won't listen" crap.

This is one of the most valuable threads on this subject on the internet right now so it would be nice to see it remain based in logic and reason. There is a great deal to be gained from this discussion in my opinion.

So, tell us about this holed piston. Was the owner using performance mods? Can the holed piston be directly related to SVO use?
 
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greasecar1

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 5, 2002
Location
MA
TDI
'78 Rabbit Rally ALH, '99 Golf Rally car, '02 Golf, '11 Golf
Lug nut:

I qualified my first request with the notation that there is an appearance of a reduction in grease fueled TDI's life expectancy. That is, I know, personally, of more dead (killed, I daresay) grease fueled TDI engine before 100,000 miles than of biodiesel or petrodiesel fueled. I know of scores of biodiesel and petrodiesel fueled TDI, and only a dozen or so grease fueled TDI. The percent of grease fueled TDI engine failures before 100,000 miles is far above the percentage of bio and petro fueled TDI.

You present the case of reduced life expectancy of converted engines as though it is documented common knowledge rather than your observation of 4 vehicles that happened to be running on vegetable oil. If you do not present the nature of the engine failure it is only circumstantial that those engines were running on vegetable oil.

Let me also clarify that statement by adding that I do not consider water in the fuel to be “vegetable oil” and do not agree that it is safe to run an unmodified TDI engine on vegetable oils.

You undoubtedly know many more grease users than I. I asked that you provide any information you might have. I can only offer the results of the few I know which might be misleading. Maybe I am just bad luck to know. Maybe I'm the reason that the sub-100k failures happen.

Well, it does seem that your will and distain for converted TDIs is strong enough, perhaps if you extra sensory strengths are as finely tuned as your other five senses this may be the case.

You, on the other hand, claim "over 1,000 customers using our system on TDIs some of which have logged over 200,000 miles since conversion". I thought you might already have data to back that assertion readily on hand to throw back at me.


We have our sales records to substantiate the quantity of kits sold and we have reports sent to us from customers time to time, however we are not able to keep records of how many miles each customer has logged to date. I’ll get some customer quotes together to back up my assertion and am willing to collect some additional numbers from TDI customers we are currently in contact with.


Regarding my criticism of grease use in
TDI: My first hand knowledge of those four TDI failures I personally have seen, have formed such a bias that there is nothing, absolutely nothing, you or other vendors of grease fuel conversion kits can do to change my opinion. My first hand seeing, touching, smelling carries much more weight than any charts or numbers you can provide. To me they will remain trivial anecdotes to what I have seen myself.

Others reading these point and counterpoint claims may not have personal sensory information upon which to form an opinion. To those people, their information from us is second hand. To them it's my claims against your claims.
Since you won't persuade me, you need to concentrate on assuaging them. Your efforts should be directed towards that end.


I have no intention of changing your mind as I know you have already locked in your opinion, however I do plan on balancing out your negative standpoint on the issue by providing concrete data to counter your circumstantial assumptions. Hopefully some substantial clear data will help those who do not have the olfactory diagnostic skills you possess.
 

vwcampin

Veteran Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2006
Location
Omaha
TDI
2002 GLS TDI Auto
jobob307 said:
greasecar1 why was your engine apart in the first place? I would love to run wvo but it isn't practical or worth the risk. If you can run with good results great but it isn't the answer for everyone.
If that is his Golf, I believe there was an electrical fire inder the hood. It was not related to grease...
 

chris Farley

New member
Joined
Sep 17, 2007
Location
Salt Lake City
TDI
85 GMC Suburban 6.2 diesel!
Franko6 said:
...most particularly the fact that the removal of water and glycerin were below par.
This statement did nothing but damage your credibility in a discussion about SVO. There is no such thing as "removal of glycerin" in the use of SVO as a fuel, as anyone who has done more than 15 minutes of research would know. Befor anyone rushes in to "remind" me that vegetable oil is made up of glycerine and fatty acid chains, I would like to remind you that it is indeed present in VO in the same way that hydrogen is present in water.

So, telling the firefighters that they are potentially creating an explosive situation by dumping hyrogen on a fire, is about as logical as telling me and anyone else running SVO in their diesels that they are going to cause problems because of all that glycerine.

Point is, I would be very hard pressed to take anyone's advice on SVO use when they make such a grave error concerning the basic principles of SVOing.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
TDI
idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
General Stark,
You are one of those that have to take either Justin's or my word for all it's worth, nothing more than typeface on the internet. You are one of those having to deal with our second hand information. I don't. My first hand knowledge means nothing to you or to anyone else, but it means so much more to me. You might just as well try to tell me that I merely imagined seeing the dime sized hole burned through one piston leaving aluminum slag dispersed throughout the engine. I similarly can't convince you that I stuck my finger in the hole.

Greasecar1,
You are absolutely correct that I'm basing my perception of early failures on just a dozen grease TDI that I know. But of that statistically small pool there is an extraordinarily high rate of failures well before 100,000 miles. You have a larger pool, I asking you to use that pool to "balance" my limited observation of roughly 25% catastrophic engine failure before 100,000 miles.
 

quantum_tdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 2004
Location
Seattle, WA
TDI
R320 CDI, '96 B4V (for sale)
greasecar1 said:
I have no intention of changing your mind as I know you have already locked in your opinion, however I do plan on balancing out your negative standpoint on the issue by providing concrete data to counter your circumstantial assumptions. Hopefully some substantial clear data will help those who do not have the olfactory diagnostic skills you possess.
ummm... concrete data? waiting:rolleyes: Rhetoric only goes so far on both sides. I support all alternative fuel sources, but I also balance that with long-term durability. If you are suggesting there is no concern about long-term durability with grease kits (maybe you can only speak to greasecar kits) all I want to see is data.

It seems people get lost in the issue of being right on both sides. I understand you have a business to protect so you should damn well spend your Friday night "wasting your time" to respond to some reasonable skepticism raised by numerous reported failures with grease.
 
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