Another Lost Prime...

I have read and read about this and there never seems to be an ending to the story (post).

The car drove well. I reached my destination after a 250 mile trip.

-The next day there was no fuel in the supply line when there is usually fuel + small air bubble. Nothing in the injector lines either. dry as a bone.

-It will not prime. I replaced hoses with clear ones and stuck both lines in a gas can of diesel. nothing.

-Changed seals except for shaft seal even though it never leaked.

-GP and CEL come on at start. I pulled fuse 32 and turned key on and they did not show up. So, I assume relay 109 is good.

-I loosened the connector on the pump, but did not take all the way off. Did I do something detrimental?

1. Can it possibly be a short somewhere and not actually the IP? I tested resistance on the IP plug and they are all within spec.

2. I checked the resistance to the crank sensor and it was good.

3. Is there anything simple/specific I can do/test to eliminate pieces and parts?

4. I have read about Ignition issues. Is that issue usually in the steering column?

I just don't want to dig into another pump and have it be something simple.

thanks,
GF

VCDS was purchased after the car crapped out so I have nothing to compare, but here are the results from modules with faults:

*******************************************

Address 01: Engine Labels: 038-906-012-AGR.clb
Part No: 038 906 012 FD
Component: 1,9l R4 EDC G000SG 4102
Coding: 00002
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 57EB8EBC86156A2FD8D-4B3D


4 Faults Found:
17971 - Quantity Adjuster (N146)
P1563 - 35-00 - Lower Limit Reached
17762 - Modulating Piston Movement Sensor (G149)
P1354 - 35-00 - Electrical Malfunction
16567 - Fuel Temp. Sensor A (G81)
P0183 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Plus
17946 - Fuel Shutoff Solenoid (N109)
P1538 - 35-00 - Open or Short to Ground
Readiness: 1 3 0 0 0

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 15: Airbags Labels: 6Q0-909-605-VW5.lbl
Part No: 6Q0 909 605 F
Component: 08 AIRBAG VW6 0202 0004
Coding: 12344
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 3A2D370815479747C73-5161

1 Fault Found:
00532 - Supply Voltage B+
07-10 - Signal too Low - Intermittent

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 17: Instruments Labels: 1J0-920-xx5-17.lbl
Part No: 1J0 920 906 L
Component: KOMBI+WEGFAHRSP VDO V02
Coding: 07232
Shop #: WSC 00001
VCID: 313F1024C831541F769-5161
9BWGP61J724024866 VWZ7Z0A3996687

2 Faults Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
01304 - Radio
49-00 - No Communications

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Address 19: CAN Gateway Labels: 6N0-909-901-19.lbl
Part No: 6N0 909 901
Component: Gateway K<->CAN 0001
Coding: 00006
Shop #: WSC 00000
VCID: 70B9D52003BB1D17397-5161

2 Faults Found:
01314 - Engine Control Module
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
01304 - Radio
49-00 - No Communications

********************************************

Good diagnostics there. Did you replace the head's o-ring and both quantity adjuster gaskets?
From where were you pulling for priming?
How do your inter-injector return lines feel?

STDOUBT said:

Good diagnostics there. Did you replace the head's o-ring and both quantity adjuster gaskets?
From where were you pulling for priming?
How do your inter-injector return lines feel?

Click to expand...

yes. Head o-ring and seals between the quantity adjuster changed out. The replaced seals were pretty new and the pump never leaked.

For priming I placed both supply and surplus lines in a small gas can filled with diesel. The can was placed to the right of the oil filter not far from the pump.

My inter-injector lines are pretty much frozen on and possibly a little cracky. I left those alone, but I did replace the supply and return lines with clear for testing. Nothing.

? If I just plug in a good pump (11mm instead of the 10mm) and re-run the auto-diagnostics and I still get intermittent communications can I assume something is wrong in the wiring loom ?

I forgot to add these details.

I jumped the shutoff solenoid directly to the battery. It worked. This leads me to believe the faults related to the IP might be from a wiring issue.

I read this post (http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?p=5604416#post5604416) and bentrod checked the resistance between pins of the IP.

1-2 = 6.3 ohms
2-3 = 6.4 ohms
4-7 = 1.372 k.ohms
5-6 = 1.0 ohms

My numbers are similar and all within spec.

My inter-injector lines are pretty much frozen on and possibly a little cracky.
I bet they're sucking air.
Very much worth replacing if you want to fix this you need to rule out air infiltration from them.
01314 - Engine Control Module
49-10 - No Communications - Intermittent
^This is not going to be related to your pump losing prime.
And just to define terms, by "surplus line" you refer to the injector #4 to> Pump line, / and you're pulling vacuum on the Pump to> Filter pipe at the top (return-to-tank line).

And when you say "The replaced seals were pretty new and the pump never leaked."
Do you mean the pump never-ever leaked? Then why replace the seals?
Aside from the Inter-Injector lines, all I can think of to explain your issue is - It leaked in the past, then you replaced the seals, Pump was empty of fuel at this point, o-ring got pinched during the operation, and it's just pulling air while you attempt to prime.

It never leaked. I did read that the pumps will not always leak out, but can suck air instead. So, I wanted to eliminate the rest of the pump from the equation (except the shaft seal).

The "surplus" line I define as the fuel line exiting the pump back to the filter.

The car is "new" to me and I really didn't know how old the seals were until replacing them.

The interjector lines were a little dry-rotted, but not leaking in anyway. Nothing was leaking from anywhere. Not the pump. Not the lines. Not the filter T. That is why I am stumped.
Because of that many people said my IP just died.

Check the harness over the starter?

Well, I guess I am having the one year blues of ownership. I think there are many issues needing addressed on this car.
PRIMING:
The car must have been sucking air even though it was not leaking. I read that can happen.
I must have been close to getting it primed just before frustration got me. Today, I finished priming the car and it started. There are still air bubbles though coming from the filter. hmmm...
FYI: I put clear lines on the supply and return sides. They are from McMaster-Carr and are rated for chemicals and spec'd at 7mm ID. They collapse under hard vacuum (>20 whatevers), but for testing they are wonderful.
[PVC Tubing for Chemicals 7 mm ID, 10 mm OD, 51825K47]
ELECTRICAL:
I re-ran the VCDS and the same codes keep coming up low voltage.
My battery won't hold a charge so that is being watched and measured.
mittzlepick: ? Check the harness over the starter?
Once the battery variable is eliminated, I will check that connection in detail. I suspect that location too.
Is everyone sure this is a fun, reliable car? I have not worked on my corolla this much in 13 years.

This "home-made" fueling from above is simple to make. (see pic below)
- JB Weld
- Jif Peanut Butter Jar, clean
- Filter (simple in-line filter for gasoline)
- Hoses
- Plastic pipe elbow
- Long slim bolt with nuts and washers for hanging
- I have since added valves and use plugs to make the job cleaner and faster
I made this one over 8 years ago. It works great getting those stubborn IPs primed. And, you can also do a "diesel purge" once you get it going by adding your favorite additive in concentrated amounts ...
For what it is worth, the instant after the ignition is turned ON, voltage at the IP Shut-Off/On valve begins to drop off very fast. So, checking voltage there with a multi-meter can be confusing as hell...

At the risk of 'when all you have is a hammer...', the only time I had issues with the no comm to the ECM, it was the N109 relay failing.
cheers,
Douglas

The T is leaking diesel onto the filter. The old one and the new one. And sucking air. How much air is acceptable? Continuous bubbles?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rMY0Rtpsb3A
THIS IS NOT MY CAR, but it looks like this much with bigger bubbles going in and smaller bubbles returning back to the filter.

T is fixed.

FYI: if you buy a new T without a manufacture date visible in the top, it's probably from china. It very likely will leak. Mine did.
So, I used the old T and paid 10$ for two o-rings.

The air will clear up, but if I jiggle the filter it will come back, but not nearly as much. Is this normal or is there air coming in somewhere between the hard lines and filter?

Do I need one of those special tools to detach the hose set from the hard lines?

It's considered pretty normal for there to be a small air bubble at the high point of the clear line,
but not for there to be bubbles moving constantly through. I always had a bubble, but after I re-sealed my IP it's been gone.
Do I need one of those special tools to detach the hose set from the hard lines?
Can you be more specific on this question? The "hard lines" go from the pump to the injectors.
My advice is make sure all the fuel lines connections are nice and tight. Using spring clamps vs. worm clamps is the way to go there too.

I suspect there is air getting in prior to the filter, but hopefully after the hard line (plastic blue and black coming up next to the shock tower). These hoses are probably original and a little rotty and cracky. I know when they get like that on my truck it causes hard starts from sucking air.
I want to change this set of hoses out to be clear as well.

OR
There is residual air in the filter, but I doubt it since it is so much.

After the motor is turned off there is more than two fingers width of air (but less than three).

I'm not into getting stranded from prime loss again. I have an old Cummins and priming that thing is done in 90 sec and certainly makes the case for a pusher pump.

Changed out Relay 109 from a spare car today. Interestingly, when I pushed the replaced relay in I heard a click like you would pushing together two electrical connectors. Vagcom was re-run and the DTCs relating to the IP are now gone and the Readiness: 0 0 1 0 1.

Also, I don't know if this makes a difference, but the Begin/End battery charge changed from 13.9/14.0v to 14.2/14.2v, respectively.

I hope this eventually helps someone else out there in TDi land...

One idea, I would try putting a check valve in between the clear hose and the filter. I have done that for troubleshooting purposes before.

I have an older model dodge cummins and the oem lift pump was mounted in the engine bay. This poor design introduced air into the line by causing cavitation. It kept burning out and this would cause injection pump failure. The failure was due to the injection pump having to do the heavy lifting of pulling fuel from the tank. This would cause the IP to overheat from lack of cooling fuel and burn up the electronics. Later models installed the lift pump in the tank itself.

Causes:
1. cavitation from the mechanical pump sucking.
2. dissolved air in the fuel separating due to temp and pressure differences.

So...air in the line is inevitable. The question is how much is acceptable for keeping prime, keeping pump electronics cool (more fuel, less air), and engine performance.

And yes, I'm putting in a check valve before the filter.