Electric vehicles (EVs), their emissions, and future viability

CraziFuzzy said:

Honestly, with an 85 mile/day commute, I think a PHEV is probably a better option than even a 200 mile EV.

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How so? I think a TDI is better suited to an 85 mile/day commute than any PHEV.

Oilerlord said:

How so?

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At this point, market pricing mostly. A volt has something like a 55 mile battery range, which will handle most his commute (close to all of it if he can even trickle charge at work), and can be had for $10k less than any of the 200 mile vehicles coming to market. $10k can purchase a lot of fuel for that small remainder.

Of course, the best decision is to not worry about which EV you get, and fix the 85 mile commute problem first.

EDIT: to handle your edit - vs a TDi, you are correct that a PHEV would not be much advantage over a TDi if that 85 miles is highway at highway speeds. If it is traffic, though, the PHEV is likely to beat out the TDi - AND meet emissions standards at the same time. ;-)

CraziFuzzy said:

At this point, market pricing mostly. A volt has something like a 55 mile battery range, which will handle most his commute (close to all of it if he can even trickle charge at work), and can be had for $10k less than any of the 200 mile vehicles coming to market. $10k can purchase a lot of fuel for that small remainder.

Of course, the best decision is to not worry about which EV you get, and fix the 85 mile commute problem first.

EDIT: to handle your edit - vs a TDi, you are correct that a PHEV would not be much advantage over a TDi if that 85 miles is highway at highway speeds. If it is traffic, though, the PHEV is likely to beat out the TDi - AND meet emissions standards at the same time. ;-)

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most of my commute is highway.

Hoever i decided to sell the jsw back to VW when the buyback time comes, i have 178K miles, i do not think i have 2 years to wait for an eventual fix, and a lot of things could go wrong in those 2 years (car totaled, HPFP, DPF) with expenses that would be more than the value of the car, and in case i total it i won't even get the extra compensation. So in the end i decided to sell it back to VW, and because of my commute i tough an EV (i am a little bit hesitant about going full EV, i would rather have a partial EV like the Volt at least as first EV vehicle for peace of mind)

CraziFuzzy said:

At this point, market pricing mostly. A volt has something like a 55 mile battery range, which will handle most his commute (close to all of it if he can even trickle charge at work), and can be had for $10k less than any of the 200 mile vehicles coming to market. $10k can purchase a lot of fuel for that small remainder.

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If this is "mostly" about market pricing, there are incredible deals on TDI's to be had. Before I bought the EV, I found a new 2015 JSW TDI on a lot in Seattle for under $19K. Even with incentives, you can't get into a new Volt for that.

Given how affordable TDI's have become, and the zero problems I've had with my 2012 JSW, I really considered forgetting about buying an EV and just going with another TDI.

CraziFuzzy said:

That said, J1772 does support a 'combo connector' much like Mennekes high current DC option, that uses the same interlock and control pins and supports 90kW of DC charging, if manufacturers choose to use it - I believe the Spark EV and i3 both have this combo plug.

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What VeeDubTDI is referring to is something different from CCS.

So, Tesla is repurposing some Mennekes pins for high-current/voltage DC charging, instead of the CCS "frankenplug" (which adds two large pins below either the Mennekes (Europe) or J1772 (US) plug for DC charging).

Replacing J1772 with Tesla's variant of Mennekes worldwide would help out a lot. (And, it's worth noting that in countries using Mennekes, it's normal for you to carry your own cable to connect to the EVSE, so a J1772 to Mennekes adapter would make sense for older cars.)

Claudio said:

most of my commute is highway.

Hoever i decided to sell the jsw back to VW when the buyback time comes, i have 178K miles, i do not think i have 2 years to wait for an eventual fix, and a lot of things could go wrong in those 2 years (car totaled, HPFP, DPF) with expenses that would be more than the value of the car, and in case i total it i won't even get the extra compensation.

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I'm guessing you have a bad taste in your mouth about Dieselgate. We all do. That said, a TDI is ideal for long highway commutes, and you've driven 178K miles on yours. A lot of things "could" go wrong but how many problems have you had with your TDI thus far?

I test drove a few PHEVs this weekend and tried to make several deals. Unless you're willing to drive a bare bones model you're looking at a $40K price tag. Unless you already have a lot of things going for you, an EV or PHEV is not a particularly "economical" choice.

In IL the battery degradation is not going to be the major concern in the sense that when winter hits you are going to lose half your range and in the summer, if you get temps anything like what we have here down in the South Western desert, the A/C running dropped our range from a little over 100 to 60.

Also, those ranges companies cite are not at freeway speeds. Our eGolf doesn't get anything remotely close to the rated range when traveling 70mph+. Whatever EV you are thinking about make sure you take it on the freeway and compare the estimated range with your mileage so you can see how quickly it drops at high speeds, with the A/C on, with the heater on, etc. Try to test when environmental conditions are harsh, too.

Wait, what are you considering "bare bones"?

It's worth noting that after the tax credit, Ford's PHEVs end up cheaper than the same trim level hybrid, if you're fine with the cargo space penalty.

The Volt's seats are manual adjustment and cloth. You get none of the lane assist, parking assist, blind spot monitoring, auto adjusting cruise control.

The Hyundai was the same way, but the base took it a step further downward by only offering a dinky stereo screen without any phone mirroring.

The eGolf SE is even more stripped down than those by removing a faster charger and DC fast charging capability. It doesn't have cruise control at all let alone any of the safety features I listed above. It does have electronic seat adjustment but with cloth seats and the stereo does have CarPlay/Android auto.

VW hybrids aren't even offered in lower trims and even though the Jetta Hybrid is discontinued when (if) VW brings over other models like they claimed they would it's likely they'll continue in that trend.


I'm not sure how to compare a Ford PHEV against a similar trim non-plug in hybrid. I don't know enough about their cars to know which ones are you thinking of. I can say that if you are looking at google search returns then you need to be aware that there are huge ranges in offerings, the Fusion ranges from 26K to 37K in four different trim levels, and so you have to be careful when you look at advertisements or manufacture websites.

All of the sites that you are seeing showing a price tag less than 40K are already calculating the $7,500 tax credit into their price. Watch out for asterisks.

Ford's site is not pulling the ~$4k tax credit out of their MSRPs, as far as I'm aware, and I'm speaking of their two PHEV products - the Fusion Energi and C-Max Energi.

And apparently your "bare bones" is what 5 years ago was approaching "fully loaded".

I'm aware of the Fusion and C-Max, which are plug-in hybrids. You said, "Ford's PHEVs end up cheaper than the same trim level hybrid." What are the two equivalent Ford hybrid models you are talking about to compare the pricing?

Why would you want to drive around with 5 year old features and technology in an EV and after spending over $30,000 dollars? Please try and keep the discussion reasonable rather than trying to argue simply to prove some asinine points.

It doesn't work as well at the SE level (I wonder if something's bundled with the Energi SE that I'm not aware of), but...

2017 Fusion Hybrid SE: $25,990
2017 Fusion Energi SE: $31,120

2017 Fusion Hybrid Titanium: $30,520
2017 Fusion Energi Titanium: $32,120

2017 Fusion Hybrid Platinum: $37,020
2017 Fusion Energi Platinum: $39,120

2016 C-Max Hybrid SEL: $27,170
2016 C-Max Energi SEL: $31,770

So, my bad, the C-Max's MSRP is more than $4000 more for the Energi. But, still, for the Fusion Energi Titanium and Platinum, after the ~$4000 tax credit, it's still cheaper than the Hybrid.

bizzle said:

I'm aware of the Fusion and C-Max, which are plug-in hybrids. You said, "Ford's PHEVs end up cheaper than the same trim level hybrid." What are the two equivalent Ford hybrid models you are talking about to compare the pricing?

Why would you want to drive around with 5 year old features and technology in an EV and after spending over $30,000 dollars? Please try and keep the discussion reasonable rather than trying to argue simply to prove some asinine points.

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I don't think two thousand dollars difference in price is an asinine point.

VeeDubTDI said:

I don't think two thousand dollars difference in price is an asinine point.

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First of all, his prices don't match Ford.com's site and he left out trim packages to bolster his point.

But that's not what I was responding to as indicated by the different paragraph.
The point I raised was that if you don't want a bare bones car you have to step up to the $40K bracket.

His response that you can get a $30K car with a 5-year old feature-set is asinine in the context of buying a new technology car (which an EV is by definition) and also compared to the fact that you can get that same base model for low $20s in non-battery form.

This was posted in the eGolf forum last night:

Remember that until battery prices come down further, manufacturers are behind the curve when it comes to pricing EVs. We're spending basically an extra $8-9k over the equivalent gas version, so to keep the price from ballooning further manufacturers have to cut corners. For example, we don't get a spare tire when other Golfs still do. CarPlay/Android Auto was also implemented a year after Europe.

As mentioned in my sig line, I used to have a Nissan Leaf. You can definitely see cost cutting with that car in things like the carpet that is so thin it's often referred to as "spray-on" in the LEAF forums, and in the plug in the steering column cover where the ignition key would go in the Nissan Versa where that part came from. It didn't even come with a cargo area cover, I had to buy that from the parts department. Yet sticker price on that car was around $36k in 2012!

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You have to sit in the cars you're thinking about before you see all of the minor and significant differences between the models. Just doing internet research is not sufficient. You have to talk to the people on the lots to see the actual pricing and what is or isn't included in the price, what kinds of incentives they're willing to give, how much (or little rather) they're willing to cut pricing.

I've been driving an eGolf since last October and I've been hitting the lots at least once a month for the past year. I'm not just speculating based on website drop-downs.

bizzle said:

The Volt's seats are manual adjustment and cloth. You get none of the lane assist, parking assist, blind spot monitoring, auto adjusting cruise control.

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Base model, though. There's higher trims than base, and a base model is nowhere near $40k, even before tax credits. You might actually get all that (not sure about the adjustment) in a Premier with Driver Confidence II, and that might actually be up to $40k... but then there's a $7500 federal tax credit, and any applicable state tax credits.

bizzle said:

The Hyundai was the same way, but the base took it a step further downward by only offering a dinky stereo screen without any phone mirroring.

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Base Sonata PHEV is $34,600 MSRP before ~$5000 federal tax credits, and has the 8" navigation screen, which includes phone mirroring support. You must have looked at a low-trim straight gas Sonata or maybe a base hybrid, not the plug-in.

The PHEV has power driver's seat, heat, and blind spot monitoring, in the base. PHEV Limited ($38,600 before tax credits) adds power passenger seat, leather, ventilation, lane departure warning, forward collision warning, automatic cruise control, and parking sensors (and a bunch of other stuff).

bizzle said:

The eGolf SE is even more stripped down than those by removing a faster charger and DC fast charging capability. It doesn't have cruise control at all let alone any of the safety features I listed above. It does have electronic seat adjustment but with cloth seats and the stereo does have CarPlay/Android auto.

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That's... not a PHEV, even.

bizzle said:

VW hybrids aren't even offered in lower trims and even though the Jetta Hybrid is discontinued when (if) VW brings over other models like they claimed they would it's likely they'll continue in that trend.

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Again, not a PHEV.

bhtooefr said:

Base model, though. There's higher trims than base, and a base model is nowhere near $40k, even before tax credits.

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I said unless you want to drive a base model be prepared to spend $40K.

bhtooefr said:

That's... not a PHEV, even.
Again, not a PHEV.

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No, the first one is an EV and the second is a hybrid to further illustrate the general pattern of having to spend $40K unless you want a base model regardless of battery configuration.
(The latter being an example of VW refusing to even offer a base model in hybrid form).

You are not simply being a pedant, you are argumentative for no good reason.

And I've cited fully loaded models that are under $40k before tax credits, and that's MSRP, not actual sale price.

Oh, and my Ford prices are the current prices per Ford's site for my area. Or maybe I didn't click through far enough and it didn't add destination or something. In any case, no, I didn't leave out trim levels, unless you get more trim levels than my area.

bhtooefr said:

And I've cited fully loaded models that are under $40k before tax credits, and that's MSRP, not actual sale price.

Oh, and my Ford prices are the current prices per Ford's site for my area. Or maybe I didn't click through far enough and it didn't add destination or something. In any case, no, I didn't leave out trim levels, unless you get more trim levels than my area.

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No you didn't. You simply fell into the trap I tried to explain to help someone else because you are caught in your pedantic and asinine argumentative loops.

A Fusion Energi Platinum is $39,995 and you left $6,550 worth of options off the C-Max ($38,320) to make your "point."

Once you actually go down to a dealership you will see what I am talking about. There is no point in arguing with an internet warrior who knows the facts without having physically verified the information.

The website pricing is intended to get you in the door. I've been on the lots for the past year. The MSRP *is* the sale price of an EV! You might get some wiggle room, but not much. They are losing money on these compliance vehicles, they don't have a strong desire to sell them.

Once you sit down at the table with checkbook in hand, as I have done a few times, and the price steadily rises over $40K any sane person is going to wonder why they are either a) looking at spending this much when they can get an economic gas version for low 20's or b) if they're willing to spend that much then might as well go look at BMWs and Mercedes.

I was able to talk the Hyundai dealer down to $37,200 for PHEV Limited. I wasn't able to test drive or even see the base model. There wasn't one in San Diego. I wouldn't have cared if they did have one because I'm not interested in spending over $30,000 dollars on a base model vehicle and they know they aren't going to sell a base model for the reasons I laid out.

Oilerlord said:

I'm guessing you have a bad taste in your mouth about Dieselgate. We all do. That said, a TDI is ideal for long highway commutes, and you've driven 178K miles on yours. A lot of things "could" go wrong but how many problems have you had with your TDI thus far?

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none, that's why i am scared

i just read a post of a guy, in the diesel gate forum, that his HPFP blew off at 200K miles...

i am not saying mine will, but there was a graph from bosh that showed that the life expectancy of the pump wasn't over 200K miles even with the best lubrication in fuel...

Also DFP is a big concern as well.

To satisfy my own curiousity, I just used the online builder to create a C-Max Energi with the 303A equipment package (+$3000 in options) and this was my summary.

Price Detail

Base MSRP: S1 $31,770
+ Options: S4 $3,000
+ Destination: S17 $875
= Total MSRP: S16 $35,645
- Incentives: S3 $11,757
= Net Price: S5 $23,888

If I add every available option including the ash tray, sunroof, charge port decal, and car cover, I come up with the following summary:

Base MSRP: S1 $31,770
+ Options: S4 $5,573
+ Destination: S17 $875
= Total MSRP: S16 $38,218
- Incentives: S3 $11,757
= Net Price: S5 $26,461

That was my mistake in adding all those option packages together. I went back to check your numbers VeeDub and saw that the higher option tiers include the lower ones (even though we ended up at basically the same MSRP).

How are you calculating $11K in incentives, though?

Also, why are we cherry picking Ford? Did anyone here ask about a Ford and are seriously considering one? Claudio asked about a Volt and my response to him was about a Volt.

That's what was calculated for me by Ford's website. Those incentives sound too high to me, but they may be including things such as dealer credit, conquest discounts, etc.

This is the language that shows up when I click on the info button for incentives...

Available Incentives

RCL Customer Cash

Program #50372: Take new retail delivery from dealer stock by 10/03/2016. Not all C-Max Energi models may qualify. See dealer for residency restrictions and complete details.
Amount: $11,757, Offer Valid: Jul 6, 2016-Oct 3, 2016

I was comparing equivalent trims, though, and I believe the options (303A, I think it is) are the same price on the C-Max Hybrid and Energi.

The discrepancy in pricing was due to Ford's mobile site not including destination in the MSRP - that's why I was getting $39,120, not $39,995.

In any case, dealers in some areas are quite willing to deal on Ford Energis: http://masheterford.mobi/Columbus-OH/For-Sale/New/Ford/Fusion/2017-Energi-SE-Car/48097071/

That's not just the cash that Ford puts on the hood of everything. (No, this is not a Platinum, the point is that they're willing to deal.)

And, finally, if the price is rising over $40k, they're not going for an "economic gas version for low 20's", they'd be going for a $30-35k gas version! The ones that have the feature set of the low 20's gas version are low 30's, before tax credits. (And, remember, tax credits.)

We're using Ford because you were talking about PHEVs in general, and missed them.

I'll reiterate my point that the websites are geared to get you in the door, but that the pricing on the lots don't often line up with what you can configure on-line.

Once you've been down to the lots and actually sat down at a desk with checkbook in hand with the numbers laid out you'll see what I was warning Claudio about.

The economics of getting an EV or PHEV to "save" money are dubious at best.
Those of us who are making it work have other things going for us. Many of us in this thread already have solar panels and/or free charging at work with relatively short commutes. In the case of my eGolf I was able to beat a good deal out of a manufacturer on the ropes.

But if your goal is purely to save money on transportation, a 2 year old Mitsubishi Mirage is the way to go, if you need a car at all.

bhtooefr said:

But if your goal is purely to save money on transportation, a 2 year old Mitsubishi Mirage is the way to go, if you need a car at all.

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Correct. Buying new cars is not how anyone should go about attempting to save money. EVs appeal to people for other reasons, which range from not wanting to use fossil fuels, free access to HOV lanes, reduction of carbon footprint, etc. The fuel savings is only a small part of the equation, and is usually negated by the high cost of the vehicle and/or steep depreciation.

That was my point to Claudio when I wrote in post #1627
"Unless you already have a lot of things going for you, an EV or PHEV is not a particularly "economical" choice."

Those things going for you would be relatively moderate weather patterns, relatively short commutes, and low-cost or free energy, or any of the myriad of personal reasons that VeeDub listed.

The side-discussion seems to have sprouted because of my secondary claim, which was that if you are stepping into a brand new EV be prepared to spend a lot more money than you initially anticipated when you thought an EV was an economical choice.

At least by my reasoning after going through the actual process of both actually leasing an EV and trying to secure a second PHEV to replace my TDI, once you realize you are not in this process saving money then purchasing a base model becomes false economy.

Claudio was specifically asking about a first generation Volt. But he can't make his commute on pure electricity alone unless he buys a 2016/2017. What's the incentive for him to get a used Volt at that point? And once he realizes that and commits himself to getting a brand new one, what is the disincentive of him optioning it out? That's when he's staring at a $40K price tag. Now he could scale back and walk away paying a few thousand less...but why? If he's trying to save money he might as well go look at a gas econobox for $15-20K less if his prime motivation is to save money.

Claudio said:

none, that's why i am scared

i just read a post of a guy, in the diesel gate forum, that his HPFP blew off at 200K miles...

i am not saying mine will, but there was a graph from bosh that showed that the life expectancy of the pump wasn't over 200K miles even with the best lubrication in fuel...

Also DFP is a big concern as well.

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I feel for the folks that have experienced HPFP failure, but in reality, the risk of it happening with your car is probably less than 0.1%.

The DPF isn't a big concern other than being a $2,000 consumable.

Tesla notwithstanding, and given your 85 mile highway commute, I wouldn't recommend any EV or PHEV on the market today. A TDI is still a great choice for highway commutes, as are a multitude of 40MPG offerings from other manufacturers.

Oilerlord said:

Tesla notwithstanding, and given your 85 mile highway commute, I wouldn't recommend any EV or PHEV on the market today.

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I agree with that assessment except for the 2016/2017 Volt, which has a 53 mile EV range, and the Bolt, which should be coming to market in a few months.

bizzle said:

I agree with that assessment except for the 2016/2017 Volt, which has a 53 mile EV range, and the Bolt, which should be coming to market in a few months.

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To each their own, I suppose. To your earlier point, a big factor that justified getting an EV was it's symbiotic relationship with my home solar. Even with that, if I had a daily 85 mile highway commute; I certainly wouldn't buy any of today's EV's - except for a Tesla if I could justify the expense.

Aside from the questionable saving money or the planet debates, people need to get seat time in these cars before assuming they fit everyone. I thought the Volt was fantastic from my laptop, until I drove one. Ford EV's are even worse - low rent, slapped together messes that were rushed to market for compliance reasons.