So my friend says my TDi is Diesel is dirty fuel and 3 times the cost of natural gas.

So my friend says my diesel is dirty fuel and 3 times the cost of natural gas.

I was commenting on friend's FB that got a natural gas car and telling him to let me know how he likes it and was telling him how much I loved my jetta sportwagen TDI. He came back with, "Diesel is dirty fuel and 3 times the cost of natural gas" and his friend came at with "The reason that diesel gas lasts longer is because it has a higher concentration of energy within. It doesn't mean that it's cleaner, unless you are using Biodiesel. Regular diesel releases soot that causes acid rain. Pretty much everything made from petroleum is bad for the environment. The best way to help is using it all in moderation. Use less, save the world." I'm feeling so annoyed about all this. I'm new to the Diesel world and wish I had some words of wisdom to throw back at them. Ugh so annoyed. Luckily someone else spoke up and said, "Actually, diesel now days is ULSD, or ultra low sulfur dieselr, which is vastly different then the diesel we knew growing up that emitted huge black clouds of toxic fumes. In addition, you also have advances in particulate filtering on the exhaust which make these cars much better for the environment compared to cars running on regular gas cars. Hence the new line of clean diesel cars we see hitting in the U.S. but which have been available in Europe for a while now.

Bio fuel is terrible for the enviroment too as they need to chop down shed loads of trees just to grow the crops to make the stuff. As for gas, give it time, as soon as it's popular the price will rocket just like diesel did. Back when diesels weren't so common diesel was like half the price of petrol.
Some people just rant absolute crap, they get brainwashed by all this stuff then spout it out as soon as they get the chance without even having concrete proof, it's a case of I'm right and you're wrong or smugness if you like.
Your modern diesel has so many things added to make it less poluting too. You can also tell them how a prius, due to all the parts that have to be brought together to build one cause way more polution because of all the flying and general transporting the parts from all over the world. Also what the hell do they do with the batteries when they wear out which can't be that long.
I don't know, I'm kinda on the "it's all a pile of crap to rob us" fence. I think the goverments just use this sort of enviroment scare tactics as an excuse to bump up prices and taxes.

Lucihula said:

I was commenting on friend's FB that got a natural gas car and telling him to let me know how he likes it and was telling him how much I loved my jetta sportwagen TDI. He came back with, "Diesel is dirty fuel and 3 times the cost of natural gas" and his friend came at with "The reason that diesel gas lasts longer is because it has a higher concentration of energy within. It doesn't mean that it's cleaner, unless you are using Biodiesel. Regular diesel releases soot that causes acid rain. Pretty much everything made from petroleum is bad for the environment. The best way to help is using it all in moderation. Use less, save the world." I'm feeling so annoyed about all this. I'm new to the Diesel world and wish I had some words of wisdom to throw back at them. Ugh so annoyed. Luckily someone else spoke up and said, "Actually, diesel now days is ULSD, or ultra low sulfur dieselr, which is vastly different then the diesel we knew growing up that emitted huge black clouds of toxic fumes. In addition, you also have advances in particulate filtering on the exhaust which make these cars much better for the environment compared to cars running on regular gas cars. Hence the new line of clean diesel cars we see hitting in the U.S. but which have been available in Europe for a while now.

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Pompous friend with his natural gas car. Sounds like he belongs over at the Prius group. They think they're saving the world. The 2009 Jetta TDI was named Green car of the Year. Shove that in his face.

That person who wrote back about ULSD and the diesel particulate filter is right on. Glad someone spoke up - I wish we had more diesels in this country but it was the ignorance shared by the person after your comment that I think the masses follow.

After driving our TDI I stuck my nose by the tailpipe and took a big inhale. Couldn't smell even a trace of any kind of fume - if anything it smelled like water vapor. I thought that was pretty incredible as I remember the smell of my dad's old diesel cars. (Their exhaust smells even worse on ULSD than the diesel of yesteryear - I guess the equivalent of exhaust smell in a vehicle made for leaded has now being run on unleaded - although that's neither here nor there.)

Since I never notice an exhaust smell from the TDI, I seem to find myself behind late model gas cars that just stink. Even my '04 smells bad - especially with a cold engine. But when I am behind these cars I hit the recirc button and say "stinkin' has cars!"

I don't know much about natural gas as an alternative fuel - but would like to have something like that or (dare I say) an all-electric car for my commute and my TDI for longer drives. Just can't afford one of those small cars and I love the TDI too much to forgo that for something else.

I also think that all alternative fuels have their place along with their strengths and weaknesses - I also believe one should drive what they want to drive regardless.

Anyways, just my thoughts.

Tell him maybe so but you won't be left stranded traveling cross country.

Here on Long Island there's a total of 7 CNG stations, and some of those have limited hours and restricted access.

Yes, CNG is cheaper, probably about half the cost of diesel. It's also much cleaner than diesel.

As long as you're in the market for a very expensive Honda Civic, and don't mind not being unable to refuel, CNG is for you.

Also, range is about 200 mies per tank, TDI range is easily double that.

CNG has great potential, and natural gas is a domestic resource, but until the fueling infrastructure improves it's just not a practical choice for most owners.

You also need to be in love with a rather slow and very pricey Civic.

let idiots be idiots, and if you're really smart, make money off said idiots

Tell your "friend" to look into all the problems people are having that live near NG wells. Problems like NG getting into people's well water and coming out of their facets. Or drilling chemicals contaminating ground water and killing off wildlife and making people's water unfit to drink.

Then point out that the exhaust coming from a current diesel vehicle is cleaner than the air going in the intake in many of our cities.

Finally if reason doesn't work, ask him /her if they want to race!

Get a white glove and put it on. Now wipe the inside of your tailpipe. Show you friend. For comparison, find 1980s diesel and do the same test to show the advances made.

BTW, that attitude is why it frustrates e when I read a thread titled some paraphrasing of "How can I roll coal".

Thanks guys!

Ask your friend what the pressure is inside the CNG tank thats maybe 3 feet from him, maybe 2 feet from his kids, when full. Or...ask to race him across country - at the legal speed limit - and see how far he gets.

Your friend is grossly misinformed about modern diesel technology, but then...many self described "savers of the universe" are. But over time many technologies will take their place within their own feasible realm. (Personally, I'm fascinated by the hydraulic hybrid, though its perhaps less feasible for small cars.)
Though I've seen reports that if the world (esp. China and India) decide to go electric, with EVs, there isn't enough Lithium on the earth for the batteries, and battery technology advancement isn't taking off. Thus, some feel the idea of all electric vehicles based on Lithium Ion batteries is not only not feasible but actually an incredible waste of an extremely rare resource.
Battery investor, and seemingly pragmatic Bill Gates seemed to echo this last year in a speech as did the Chinese when they pulled back on their EV mandates.

NickBeek said:

Tell your "friend" to look into all the problems people are having that live near NG wells. Problems like NG getting into people's well water and coming out of their facets. Or drilling chemicals contaminating ground water and killing off wildlife and making people's water unfit to drink.

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Uhhh, where do you think crude oil comes from? Same wells in many cases (many produce natural gas (methane), water, crude oil and condensate). It's all separated on the well pad. Fraccing has been going on for 100 years and all wells get the same dose of it. Do some research and factor out the propaganda.

Facebook is not where you go for facts, it is where you go for..... Why DOES someone go to Facebook?

Bill

40X40 said:

Facebook is not where you go for facts, it is where you go for..... Why DOES someone go to Facebook?

Bill

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Bill:

We went there last week and came across photo's of the son's (and son's wife's) new Tatoos!!!

Well I have owned three natural gas vehicle conversions over the years. there is about an 20% power loss so it works better on larger engines eight cylinders preferred. they burn clean, engine passes air care ( here in Vancouver BC Canada ) without a catalytic converter on natural gas. the oil stays clean after 10k km it is hard to see on the dip stick. the fuel cost compared to gasoline was about 1/2. but natural gas is becoming harder and harder to find in BC as the filling stations are being dismantled here, and the prices for natural gas are way to high to make it worth using.
having said that i now own three VW diesels and wouldn't trade them for any natural gas vehicle, more fun to drive, that great torque you don't fine that with natural gas, cheaper on fuel easier to maintain. have I mentioned more fun to drive.
just my 2 cents worth.

Seatman said:

Bio fuel is terrible for the enviroment too as they need to chop down shed loads of trees just to grow the crops to make the stuff. As for gas, give it time, as soon as it's popular the price will rocket just like diesel did. Back when diesels weren't so common diesel was like half the price of petrol.
Some people just rant absolute crap, they get brainwashed by all this stuff then spout it out as soon as they get the chance without even having concrete proof, it's a case of I'm right and you're wrong or smugness if you like.
Your modern diesel has so many things added to make it less poluting too. You can also tell them how a prius, due to all the parts that have to be brought together to build one cause way more polution because of all the flying and general transporting the parts from all over the world. Also what the hell do they do with the batteries when they wear out which can't be that long.
I don't know, I'm kinda on the "it's all a pile of crap to rob us" fence. I think the goverments just use this sort of enviroment scare tactics as an excuse to bump up prices and taxes.

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^^more opinion without knowledge.

nicklockard said:

^^more opinion without knowledge.

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BS^^^^

I've read and watched various stuff, as soon as something becomes popular everyone wants a piece of the pie, it's always the same. There was a lot of hoo ha about woods getting chopped down to make way for plantations for bio fuel. Big companies were paying poor people to wreck they're own country and make money.
As for green products, it might have improved but there was various things like washing up liquid that said on the label it didn't contain this or that but neither did the regular stuff and the so called green one was triple the price!
It is also common knowledge about the prius, I'm not totally against the idea of electric or other energy powered cars but I am against bull and lies by big companies.
Our goverment also throws on around 70% tax on fuel and does nothing helpful with the money. I don't consider blowing up other countries productive to me. I also don't consider it useful spending millions on lunches, cleaners and second homes for politicians when some of us are up the creek without a paddle.
They spout all this global warming etc etc then use the info to shaft us on energy prices. The money they take from that doesn't go into better sources either.
It's always the same old same old, what about Donald Trump? He's come over here to Scotland flashing his cash and as a result people are thrown out their homes that they've lived in for years just so he can build a flippin GOLF COURSE! Seriously? This is the kind of people I'm complaining about, there the ones in charge and if you think for one second they give a rats ass about you you are very mistaken.

aja8888 said:

Bill:

We went there last week and came across photo's of the son's (and son's wife's) new Tatoos!!!

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I have 21 year old twin sons. Their girlfriends post some nice vacation pictures from time to time.

About the only "good" thing I see with CNG is that at this time it is most likely the cheapest cost per mile of any fuel out there.

Show them this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErgPgvoLwk&feature=relmfu

CNG ia a good fuel....in the right application. It does burn very clean. In my view, the place for it, and it IS happening, is inter-city fleet use, specifically buses, delivery vehicles (think UPS), and garbage trucks. In those applications, where there is a ton of start-stop-start driving, CNG really is the best answer. As for cars, the biggest advantage in Los Angeles is that CNG labeled vehicles can still be driven solo in the carpool lanes, hybrids no longer can do that. Other than that, range and refueling limitations make it a hard choice.

aja8888 said:

Uhhh, where do you think crude oil comes from? Same wells in many cases (many produce natural gas (methane), water, crude oil and condensate). It's all separated on the well pad. Fraccing has been going on for 100 years and all wells get the same dose of it. Do some research and factor out the propaganda.

Click to expand...

No, fracking is a recent development, and has polluted ground water both directly and in watewater disposal, and is now linked to earthquakes in Ohio. Natural gas and oil produced with fracking are proving to be as bad or worse than tar sands.

UFO said:

No, fracking is a recent development, and has polluted ground water both directly and in watewater disposal, and is now linked to earthquakes in Ohio. Natural gas and oil produced with fracking are proving to be as bad or worse than tar sands.

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Well formations have been fracced for as long as I can remember. Companies like Halliburton and other major well service firms specialize in formation stimulation through a variety of proven methods, including acidizing and mechanical stimulation. Here is a blurb from Hallibuton's site on their frac services:

"Halliburton’s history of fracturing achievement is due to continuous devotion to technology development, extensive training and a global best practices process. Since Halliburton performed the first commercial fracturing treatment in 1949, over 1 million wells have been successfully fractured by the industry in the United States."


I have boring logs of wells drilled in 1921 in Texas where "high pressure" formation fracturing was conducted by an oil producer. Once you drill a well, oil/gas/water does not always "jump out" to the surface. You usually have to break the rock it is completed in to get things flowing. There is more to this than a casual look on CNBC and Facebook to get the facts.

In recent years, many other companies have entered into the well service field. This is due to the expansion of deep drilling (>10,000 feet bgs) and subsequent horizontal drilling techniques.

HammerTDI said:

Show them this video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hErgPgvoLwk&feature=relmfu

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LOL, great teaser video.

I have freaked out a few of my co-workers with my 2010 JSW TDI by swabbing the inside of the tailpipes with my fingers and then licking them afterwards. I would challenge any gasser driver out there who thinks "diesels are dirty and bad for the environment" to do the same taste test on their gasser's exhaust pipe(s). Gasser hype-brid owners, let's see your exhaust pipe taste tests!

Lucihula said:

I was commenting on friend's FB that got a natural gas car and telling him to let me know how he likes it and was telling him how much I loved my jetta sportwagen TDI. He came back with, "Diesel is dirty fuel and 3 times the cost of natural gas" and his friend came at with "The reason that diesel gas lasts longer is because it has a higher concentration of energy within. It doesn't mean that it's cleaner, unless you are using Biodiesel. Regular diesel releases soot that causes acid rain. Pretty much everything made from petroleum is bad for the environment. The best way to help is using it all in moderation. Use less, save the world." I'm feeling so annoyed about all this. I'm new to the Diesel world and wish I had some words of wisdom to throw back at them. Ugh so annoyed. Luckily someone else spoke up and said, "Actually, diesel now days is ULSD, or ultra low sulfur dieselr, which is vastly different then the diesel we knew growing up that emitted huge black clouds of toxic fumes. In addition, you also have advances in particulate filtering on the exhaust which make these cars much better for the environment compared to cars running on regular gas cars. Hence the new line of clean diesel cars we see hitting in the U.S. but which have been available in Europe for a while now.

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Your friends sound like pompus blowhards. I wouldn't even bother debating with them. You can smile knowing that they have no idea how good you have it cruising in your most excellent diesel powered station wagon. When you look at the fuel economy, performance, and practicality of the JSW there is no comparison. TDI for the win.

Truthfully I don't know much of anything about CNG cars, but my guess is that they mostly enjoy their cars when they tabulate fuel costs and you enjoy yours every time you get behind the wheel.

timwagon said:

Yes, CNG is cheaper, probably about half the cost of diesel. It's also much cleaner than diesel.

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Part of the reason CNG is cheaper is that there are no fuel taxes applied to it. That may be workable as long as CNG is in very limited use, but if it becomes a general use fuel taxes will need to be applied to compensate for the revenues lost from gasoline and diesel taxes. I assume that the likely way to accomplish this would be based on the energy content of the fuel. Looking at internet sources $0.419 in taxes are collected per gallon of diesel fuel in NJ, which I would assume is over 10% of the cost.

Dave

aja8888 said:

Well formations have been fracced for as long as I can remember. Companies like Halliburton and other major well service firms specialize in formation stimulation through a variety of proven methods, including acidizing and mechanical stimulation. Here is a blurb from Hallibuton's site on their frac services:

"Halliburton’s history of fracturing achievement is due to continuous devotion to technology development, extensive training and a global best practices process. Since Halliburton performed the first commercial fracturing treatment in 1949, over 1 million wells have been successfully fractured by the industry in the United States."


I have boring logs of wells drilled in 1921 in Texas where "high pressure" formation fracturing was conducted by an oil producer. Once you drill a well, oil/gas/water does not always "jump out" to the surface. You usually have to break the rock it is completed in to get things flowing. There is more to this than a casual look on CNBC and Facebook to get the facts.

In recent years, many other companies have entered into the well service field. This is due to the expansion of deep drilling (>10,000 feet bgs) and subsequent horizontal drilling techniques.

Click to expand...

The technique may have been developed back in 1949, only now when well production has fallen off is it now common, something like 35,000 wells annually now. I prefer clean water to fuel thank you very much.

UFO said:

The technique may have been developed back in 1949, only now when well production has fallen off is it now common, something like 35,000 wells annually now. I prefer clean water to fuel thank you very much.

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I give up...obviously you have spent a lot of time on the internet while I have spent 35 years in oil and gas production. Maybe I missed something along the way.....

Ehhh, why have a battle of wits on Facebook? If you really want to teach him and his friends a lesson, grab a bat, drive over, take the bat to him and his car, take pix, then post up on Facebook and be sure to tag him.

Following the thread drift, I've wondered if we couldn't increase well yields by using solar thermal collectors to heat up solvent, then inject that under pressure to bring the heavier oil up in solution. The right partially miscible solvent (might have to be complex solvent blend) might be found which dissolves oil in the ground, but separates from it once on the surface at lower pressures and different concentration ratio. You could then recover the solvent and run it in an almost closed loop...

Solar thermal can reach 230C temps. With a 2MWthermal installation (requires about 12,300 square meters of land, you could increase yields? Plus, at the end of the field's useful life for oil production you could insert a geothermal tap to recover the heat from the heat sink you've been filling all that time.