Solid Lifters
- Thread starter papi123
- Start date
papa_smurf49319
Veteran Member
Always wondered if these cars were a hydraulic flat tappet, or a roller tappet? Assuming they are hydraulic, im pretty sure there not a solid.
Cody
Cody
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
All TDI engines have hydraulic lifters. Truly "solid" lifters require a means of adjustment (on the motorcycle engines that I am familiar with, it is typically a shim-under-bucket which requires camshaft removal in order to change the shims if one of them goes out of adjustment - NOT pleasant) and they also require different ramps on the cam profiles to gently take up the clearance before opening the valve and to gently set the valve down on its seat while still maintaining adequate clearance, to avoid smashing stuff up ...
Very early (before mid-1980's) VW engines did indeed use solid lifters, but the cylinder heads and camshafts were different.
Very early (before mid-1980's) VW engines did indeed use solid lifters, but the cylinder heads and camshafts were different.
GoFaster
Moderator at Large
Hydraulic flat tappet on all 2-valve-per-cylinder engines. Hydraulic roller follower on all common-rail engines, which are all 4-valve-per-cylinder. In North America, this means hydraulic flat tappet on all through 2006, and hydraulic roller follower on all 2009 onward. 2007 and 2008 were skipped model years.
There was a 4v/cyl "pumpe-duse" in Europe, I don't know what those used.
compu_85
Gadget Guy
The change to self adjusting lifters happened in 1986 with diesels. Replacing a shim didn't require removing the camshaft, but it did require a special tool to depress the lifter.
-J
-J
Ol'Rattler
Top Post Dawg
At the RPMs these cars run at, solid lifter would offer zero gains in performance.
Solid lifters are not used just because of high rpm.
It is pointless,and would also lose power if solid lifters are installed on a stock hydro cam,because the lifters need a clearance so the lift and duration will be reduced.
However,with solid lifters the cam can use just about any base circle we want.
Which make it MUCH easier to regrind a cam.
And for those saying that the clearance has to be adjusted all the time really don't have a clue of what they are talking about.
The OLD 8v gasser and Diesel engines with solid lifters had a service interval of 30000km for checking valve clearance,and it was barely not needed on any of them.
I have installed solid lifters on alot of engines,and some of them even had seat pressure over 50kg,even these engines can run 30000km before adjustment is needed.
It is pointless,and would also lose power if solid lifters are installed on a stock hydro cam,because the lifters need a clearance so the lift and duration will be reduced.
However,with solid lifters the cam can use just about any base circle we want.
Which make it MUCH easier to regrind a cam.
And for those saying that the clearance has to be adjusted all the time really don't have a clue of what they are talking about.
The OLD 8v gasser and Diesel engines with solid lifters had a service interval of 30000km for checking valve clearance,and it was barely not needed on any of them.
I have installed solid lifters on alot of engines,and some of them even had seat pressure over 50kg,even these engines can run 30000km before adjustment is needed.
TheoSweden
Veteran Member
Geir do you know anything about different lifters on TDI engines? with 3mm resp. 5mm "play" or what you call it...
I have a regrinded cam with smaller base circle(not yet installed), and should need the 5mm ones to be sure it works good I've been told. Do you sell new 5mm ones?
//Theo
I have a regrinded cam with smaller base circle(not yet installed), and should need the 5mm ones to be sure it works good I've been told. Do you sell new 5mm ones?
//Theo
Theo
Not sure what the "3mm vs 5mm" means
I have hydro lifters which have a element that sticks approx 0,6mm longer out measured when the element is at the bottom compared to a stock PD lifter.
Whats important aswell is the location of the oil groove around the lifter,when using a cam with a smaller base the oil groove needs to be in a lower position,the lifter i have has a slight wider groove (approx 0,3mm wider)
How much is your cam grinded down?
TheoSweden
Veteran Member
Hard to explain in english.
Jag menar 3 eller 5mm i avstånd mellan bottenläget och maximalt "ute"(full med olja).
My cam has 1mm smaller base circle/1mm more lift.
//Theo
Jag menar 3 eller 5mm i avstånd mellan bottenläget och maximalt "ute"(full med olja).
My cam has 1mm smaller base circle/1mm more lift.
//Theo
Ok
I think you should be able to use stock pd lifters then,since you only need to extend the element 0.5mm
You must measure and look how the oil groove lines up when the lifter is at the highest point,so you are sure they are filled correctly.
I think you should be able to use stock pd lifters then,since you only need to extend the element 0.5mm
You must measure and look how the oil groove lines up when the lifter is at the highest point,so you are sure they are filled correctly.
TheoSweden
Veteran Member
Yes thanks for that. We´ll see if I install the camshaft some time in the near future... To many projects as usual
MJF
Active member
I used Nissan 1,7D lifters in my 1,9. Older VW shims will fit in these and are drop in instead of hydraulic lifter.
ndamico
Vendor , w/Business number
- Joined
- Mar 20, 2008
- Location
- Sacramento, CA
- TDI
- 2003 Golf 2Dr TDI, 2003 Jetta TDI, 2003 Jetta Wagon TDI, 2002 Duramax, 2003 Duramax
what is the exact difference between a stock PD lifter vs stock ALH lifter? is it material, coating, or are the dimensionally different?
v8 coupe
Veteran Member
Another advantage to solid lifters verse hydraulic lifters is you can run more aggressive ramp angles. Meaning you can open the valve up quicker. If you try to run the same style of valve speed on a hydraulic lifter the lifter will collapse and become damaged. You can not exceed the internal pressure of the lifter much or they will be damaged, meaning the speed at which you open the valve has to be reduced.
Opening the valve faster means you can get into the higher flow rate sooner and stay there for longer. This is why most larger duration solid lifter cams have a thicker tip then a similar hydraulic grind. It will give you gains in the fact that there will be more time in the same duration cam spent at the higher flow rate more lift gives you. basically more area under the curve and more power/torque is made.
Using some basic 8v cam numbers from catcams.
CL=clearance
Duration @ 1.0mm+cl 236° 226°
Valve lift cl=0mm 11.55mm 10.15mm
Peak angle 110° 120°
Timing @ 1.0mm+cl 8/48° 53/-7°
Lift at TDC cl=0mm 2.35mm 0.80mm
Duration @ 0.1mm 266° 257°
Duration @ 1.0mm 232° 220°
Valve lift 11.20mm 10.15mm
Peak angle 110° 120°
Timing @ 1.0mm 6/46° 50/-10°
Lift at TDC 1.70mm 0.30mm
As you can see similar cams, but the solid lift cam has more aggressive design. The limiting factor becomes springs before you start floating valves. the same spring in a Hydraulic will float way before the solid lifter will. Also these cams are both designed to work with completely stock valve trains. I'd love to see either in a TDI application, issue would be those lift at TDC numbers. 2.35mm of lift with ~.7mm valve protrusion means you would need a valve pocket with ~3.55mm of clearance. I don't think that would be easy.
Opening the valve faster means you can get into the higher flow rate sooner and stay there for longer. This is why most larger duration solid lifter cams have a thicker tip then a similar hydraulic grind. It will give you gains in the fact that there will be more time in the same duration cam spent at the higher flow rate more lift gives you. basically more area under the curve and more power/torque is made.
Using some basic 8v cam numbers from catcams.
CL=clearance
7640260
Duration @ 0.1mm+cl 269° 280°Duration @ 1.0mm+cl 236° 226°
Valve lift cl=0mm 11.55mm 10.15mm
Peak angle 110° 120°
Timing @ 1.0mm+cl 8/48° 53/-7°
Lift at TDC cl=0mm 2.35mm 0.80mm
7650255
Duration @ 0.1mm 266° 257°
Duration @ 1.0mm 232° 220°
Valve lift 11.20mm 10.15mm
Peak angle 110° 120°
Timing @ 1.0mm 6/46° 50/-10°
Lift at TDC 1.70mm 0.30mm
As you can see similar cams, but the solid lift cam has more aggressive design. The limiting factor becomes springs before you start floating valves. the same spring in a Hydraulic will float way before the solid lifter will. Also these cams are both designed to work with completely stock valve trains. I'd love to see either in a TDI application, issue would be those lift at TDC numbers. 2.35mm of lift with ~.7mm valve protrusion means you would need a valve pocket with ~3.55mm of clearance. I don't think that would be easy.
Lug_Nut
TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
- Joined
- Jun 20, 1998
- Location
- Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
- TDI
- idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Be careful with blanket statements like that.
I have hydraulic cam followers installed in my Saab Sonnet's 1.5 liter V4 (Ford 60 degree V angle, pushrod and rocker actuated valves, '3/4 race' cam). These followers are not only lighter than the (stock) solid followers that the car originally came from the factory with, they allow another 1200 rpm prior to valve float that I don't get with the original factory supplied solid followers installed.
I bought the car with the engine built up for performance by a prior owner. The cam followers that were in the car at that time were hydraulics (from a Ford 352 V8). I thought I could gain performance with solid ones so I acquired a set from a Sonett and swapped them in. I could reach 5200 rpm with the solid followers before the engine ran ragged. I had been able to reach 6500 with the hydraulics. Damn right the hydraulics went back in. The hydraulics are also quieter with no clearance tap sound at idle, nor at speed when cold, and I can forget about periodic lash measurements and adjustments.
So, in that specific situation, the solid followers caused valve float well before the lighter hydraulic ones do.
I really don't understand what you are talking about,care to explain?