Alternative Fuels

nascartdi

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Joined
May 20, 2005
Location
Northern VA
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Maybe Soon
I'm just wondering why alternative fuels really haven't jumped into the forefront of fuel prices recently. A lot of the GTL fuel papers I've read indicated viability at the $25-30 dollar a barrel crude oil prices. Seems to me that GTL diesel or a GTL/Bio blend being offered at the local WaWa for $1.59/gal would be a real incentive. I suspect there would be a lot of screaming at the auto industry if alternative diesel could be made at that price. It would also seem States with large NG deposits would be looking at GTL like Alaska does its oil. Maybe it just takes more time, but it sure looks like the opportunity is there for alternative fuels to make a big impact on the market. Maybe I should be working on my business plan rather than typing here.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 20, 1998
Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Some fuels are considered to be alternative for a reason. There is frequently one or more impediments to preventing that fuel from becoming a fuel of choice rather than an alternative to the fuel of choice. Those impediments may be shelf life, cost, availability, toxicity, past history, whatever. The total of the reasons to not use one fuel over another are what relegates one to "alternative" status. It's only when there is some change to the impediments of the fuel of choice, as the recent price rise has been for liquid fossil fuels, that the alternatives to that fuel of choice may become the new choice. A high price for petrodiesel may make the cold temperature limitations and availability issues of biodiesel seem less important.
Will the same price parity still exist in two years when your business plan is about to be implemented? That longer term insecurity of profitability has stymied many that are looking to biofuels as a source of income.
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
Alternative fuels are 'exploding' in Germany.
With diesel and gas at $6/gallon, virgin canola at $2.50/gallon is cheap enough to save a German trucker $10, up to $20,000 / year.

For one measure, here's Straight Vegetable Oil kit maker
Elsbett of Germany's web hits:
http://www.elsbett.com/usage

By artificially raising the price of fuel thy've created an enviroment for alternative fuels to thrive.
Check out the dozens of SVO fueling stations throughout Germany here:
http://www.biotanke.de/Verzeichnis/tanksstellen.html

Even the 'Bush's' are in on it

'Bush family' Veggie Oil
 

nascartdi

Member
Joined
May 20, 2005
Location
Northern VA
TDI
Maybe Soon
What would really be cool is for Syntroleum corporation to miniaturize there FT fuel process so it could be housed in a home garage. Then you just plumb your NG line to the reactor, set a guage for how much fuel you want today and let it perk while at work. Get home and fill up.
 

Lug_Nut

TDIClub Enthusiast, Pre-Forum Veteran Member
Joined
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Location
Sterling, Massachusetts. USA
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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
Natural gas is still a fossil fuel that adds to the carbon based greenhouse gasses contributing to global climate change. It may be "cleaner" than others, but it is not "greener" than many.
If you are considering alternatives, why not choose one that can be zero emission? Or at least can be carbon neutral?
 

nascartdi

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Northern VA
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Maybe Soon
Cause zero emission is a big elephant and I only think in little bites. Near zero sulphur allows better diesel emissions controls. Probably easier marketing to general public than greener fuels. US has a lot of it, so foreign dependence could be less. What's wasted in flaring could power a lot of cars for a lot of years. Would be a good mix with biodiesel. Wouldn't think it is the end all, but it seems to me to be better than what we have now.
 

McBrew

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Annapolis, MD
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2003 Golf GLS TDI, 5 speed, Silver/Grey
So, are you saying that people won't buy a particular fuel simply because it IS more environmentally friendly ("green")? I'm actually ready to believe that. The average American idiot would rather pay $6/gal at the pump than be labelled a "tree hugger."
 

BioDiesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
CT
TDI
'98 Jetta
" than be labelled a "tree hugger.""

Funny.

I wonder if gas co.'s can give out certificates of dead
Iraqies or Afghanies?

I can imagine it now....
"You lucky guy! Your's was from a wedding!!"
 

nascartdi

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Joined
May 20, 2005
Location
Northern VA
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Maybe Soon
So, are you saying that people won't buy a particular fuel simply because it IS more environmentally friendly ("green")? I'm actually ready to believe that. The average American idiot would rather pay $6/gal at the pump than be labelled a "tree hugger."
No, not at all. The fact about fuel is that is an expense for any buyer. Unless you make green fuels price competitive then they don't have a chance. Sure, there are lots of folks that will pay a bit more to be environmentally friendly, but most don't care - it is the retail price at the pump. But my point was that a lot of people will look at biofuels, GTL as quirky and not mainstream - unless the price point is in their favor. Which goes back to my original premise that the surge into the market share has to be on price point - not necessarily "environmental goodness." I think the average american would rather pay $1.50/gal biodiesel and be labelled a "tree hugger" rather than $2.59 for regular #2 diesel. And I also think it is going to have to be a significant price difference for diesel to make significant market share in the auto industry.
 

naturist

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having had my own conversation with somebody laughing at my use of diesel that cost 10 cents a gallon more than gasoline (let's see, 10/280=3.6% . . . vs 30%-60% better mileage . . . I guess it all averages out, huh!?!?) I too think that only a significant price per gallon difference will actually register in the public consciousness.

I know I got a much bigger response to my last purchase of B100 at a buck a gallon LESS than gasoline at the time than I have ever gotten from 50 miles per gallon.
 

nascartdi

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Northern VA
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Maybe Soon
It really is all a Catch-22 right now. Not enough market for E-85 and Biodiesel because there really aren't enough cars on the road that can use those fuels to really help out. Retailers won't carry them because they can't turn a profit today or this week - it doesn't do them any good to have a pump. About the only incentive I can think of would be a National B-5 (or whatever mix is right) campaign tied to tax reductions that would help the heavy truck fleets now and perhaps lower costs in other sectors. Enough people see a significant price gap between regular gas and biodiesel will cause manufacturers to increase light diesel production. I just don't understand why the bean and corn growers haven't come up with a plan to increase the supply to reduce prices and lobbying states and feds for implementation. I'd like to see the big three lobby for deferment of diesel emissions for a year or 2 so they can increase their diesel options quicker (assuming ULSD/Bio).
 

kjmayberry

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NC, USA
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How about that Elsbett one tank system? Will it affect engine life? And could I use very clean WVO with success?
 

BioDiesel

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CT
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'98 Jetta
check the link in my sig. it works well for me so far, 27k.
one 2 tank elsbett TDI has gone 200k miles.
lots of others use wvo. up to you to clean and de water
 

overbite

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Location
Eagle Lake, MN
TDI
1996 passat
The farmers in MN did lobby the state to get a B2 mandate passed. It goes into effect tomorrow. I have even seen the $.05 jump in price at the pump. The thing is that it is not cost effecent to make those fuels without some tax help right now. I spoke with a Biodiesel producer at Soy Mar and they can make Bio right now for about $2.50/gal. That is better than D2, but that is cost at the plant. To haul it around starts to add some $$. Same with Ethonal. Most of the ethoal plants around here have a pump just out side the plant that sells E85 for $1.55/gal. Great deal, esp. when gas is $2.60. Production of Biofuels is going to have to increase to get the price to drop. The only way to increase demand is mandate use. Call you state rep or your local soybean board and talk to them and support the biodiesel effort. Only then will it become a main stream fuel choice.
 

jimlockey

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First of all, I would have to drive way out of the way to get Bio and second I'm not convinced Bio is good for my car so I'm sticking with high volume deisel stations. Third, I don't care who's brand I get. Forth, I have owned diesels for 10 years and have never gotten a bad tank of diesel.
 

Ernie Rogers

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NG is in short supply just like oil. The GTL process is advantageous in corners of the world where they have more gas than they can use locally, such as Qatar. Converting the gas to liquid makes it easier to ship and sell to needier parts of the globe.

It takes a lot of money and time to build full-scale GTL (Fischer-Tropsh process) plants. And, they are just now becoming cost effective. Widely available GTL fuel is still a few years away, and when it is here, it will be coming in by ship like most of the rest of our energy.

Ernie Rogers
 

SUNRG

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Roanoke, VA
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First of all, I would have to drive way out of the way to get Bio and second I'm not convinced Bio is good for my car so I'm sticking with high volume deisel stations. Third, I don't care who's brand I get. Forth, I have owned diesels for 10 years and have never gotten a bad tank of diesel.
a good ASTM certified BioDiesel blend (high cetane, low sulfur, outstanding lubricity improvement) is much much better for your TDI than 500ppm sulfur, 40 cetane, PetroD.
 

vikingrob

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May 18, 2004
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Minneapolis
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First of all, I would have to drive way out of the way to get Bio and second I'm not convinced Bio is good for my car so I'm sticking with high volume deisel stations. Third, I don't care who's brand I get. Forth, I have owned diesels for 10 years and have never gotten a bad tank of diesel.
For me, a B2 pump is about one mile from home.

However, there is also a station about 10 miles from me that has a reputation for having premium diesel at a very good price.

There is also the issue of cold weather and biodiesel - I dare not run B100 in the winter in Minnesota.
 

vikingrob

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Minneapolis
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I'm thinking something like thermal depolymerization would be an interesting possibility. One source of feedstock mentioned for this process (at least used at a plant in Missouri) is turkey offal.

My thinking is that this might be a plan that actually will do more for Minnesota than a proposed coal gasification plant that got a federal loan guarantee some time ago. Part of my thinking is that Minnesota produces a huge quantity of turkeys each year, and if enough agricultural waste and/or household trash is processed through such systems, we can at the very least put a major dent in oil imports.
 

goosegunner

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Wisconsin
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thermal depolymerization

How about using up some of the debris and trash from the hurricane damage?

gg
 
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