Completed Phase 1 TDI Fix on my 2015 TDI Passat Manual

Mythdoc

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VW has a very different cost/risk/benefit equation here than in the rest of the world, where there is no regulatory agency holding their feet to the fire. There, they are promulgating an optional "fix" but at the same time are motivated to minimize exposure to costs due to the breakdown of hardware components under warranty. So the fix is garbage.

Also, don't discount the possibility that over there the putative failure of the fix is being flogged by consumer groups and lawyers preparing their class action suit, with the press as willing stenographers.

Here, VW has no such cost incentive because they are working under regulations which require them to replace the exact hardware components that are under greater stress due to the fix. So, there is no secret reflash happening in phase 2. And they are on the hook for any engine and emissions components that may fail during the EPA designated normal lifespan (mid 100s miles) of the vehicle.

Maybe the news is too good for some to comprehend. That's what happens to companies when they cheat. VW deserves this paranoia, no doubt. But the fix here is working, make no mistake.
 

DanB36

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My guess is that post-Phase II will be more like what's being reported in the UK, with the DPF putting out heavy fumes during regens, significantly lower MPG (i.e., teens instead of fifties),
You believe fuel consumption will increase by a factor of 3-4? That just doesn't sound even remotely plausible.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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You believe fuel consumption will increase by a factor of 3-4? That just doesn't sound even remotely plausible.
I didn't write it as a prediction. You don't have to believe it. No one has to believe it. But whether we believe it or not doesn't change the reality that it is being reported by UK drivers who've gotten their 1.6L and 2.0L VAG cars "fixed".
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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I didn't write it as a prediction. You don't have to believe it. No one has to believe it. But whether we believe it or not doesn't change the reality that it is being reported by UK drivers who've gotten their 1.6L and 2.0L VAG cars "fixed".

Are the over the pond guys getting the exact same fix?

I for one, don't count the 1.6 Liter units even in question ~ as we are all 2.0 Liter units
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Are the over the pond guys getting the exact same fix?

I for one, don't count the 1.6 Liter units even in question ~ as we are all 2.0 Liter units
Both 1.6 L and 2.0 L are EA189 TDIs. The only difference is displacement. Everything else is the same.

-- Nicole
 

Miss_Athanatos

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VW has a very different cost/risk/benefit equation here than in the rest of the world, where there is no regulatory agency holding their feet to the fire. There, they are promulgating an optional "fix" but at the same time are motivated to minimize exposure to costs due to the breakdown of hardware components under warranty. So the fix is garbage.

Also, don't discount the possibility that over there the putative failure of the fix is being flogged by consumer groups and lawyers preparing their class action suit, with the press as willing stenographers.

Here, VW has no such cost incentive because they are working under regulations which require them to replace the exact hardware components that are under greater stress due to the fix. So, there is no secret reflash happening in phase 2. And they are on the hook for any engine and emissions components that may fail during the EPA designated normal lifespan (mid 100s miles) of the vehicle.

Maybe the news is too good for some to comprehend. That's what happens to companies when they cheat. VW deserves this paranoia, no doubt. But the fix here is working, make no mistake.
The UK drivers are framing their legal actions based on two premises from what I've read: (1) They were duped into the "fix" under false pretense. (2) The "fix" ruined the performance, reliability, drive-ability, and fuel efficiency (really all the reasons they bought the VW autos) of their cars.

I am not catching the "garbage fix" logic that you're using. You're claiming that because VW is under no regulatory obligations to manage emissions in the UK, they're deliberately tuning everyone's cars so that they're crap? It seems to me that they would tune the engines for more performance and remove the emissions system to reduce exhaust back pressure, thus pushing up or maintaining MPGs in that case.

My guess is VW is using the UK as a test for what they can expect in warranty service in the USA once they put the real emissions "fix" into service (Phase II), as well as trying to develop some golden mean of engine control, emissions control, and parts durability to meet the EPA requirements in the USA.

Phase I may be pleasing some drivers in the USA, or even most drivers who get it, but that doesn't mean that it is "working". Has anyone actually measured emissions from a Phase I car yet? or put it through a real world simulation on a dyno?

-- Nicole
 

Mythdoc

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Has anyone actually measured emissions from a Phase I car yet? or put it through a real world simulation on a dyno?


I'm still at a loss trying to understand how you think the US process is working.
--Are you saying the EPA and CARB don't have dynos and engineers who have tested out the fix?
--Or that VW is preparing to roll out a secret phase II software tune with the expectation that they won't get caught and punished for it again? ("Oh, sorry, EPA, we were just seeing if you were paying attention. We'll put the phase I tune back in the cars now. Never mind.")
--Or that both the regulators and VW have rolled out a pseudo fix in phase I with the knowledge that when phase II comes the consumer will have the crap end?

These are simple questions and deserve a simple answer.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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I'm still at a loss trying to understand how you think the US process is working.
--Are you saying the EPA and CARB don't have dynos and engineers who have tested out the fix?
--Or that VW is preparing to roll out a secret phase II software tune with the expectation that they won't get caught and punished for it again? ("Oh, sorry, EPA, we were just seeing if you were paying attention. We'll put the phase I tune back in the cars now. Never mind.")
--Or that both the regulators and VW have rolled out a pseudo fix in phase I with the knowledge that when phase II comes the consumer will have the crap end?

These are simple questions and deserve a simple answer.
1) Your question is not relevant to my question. It is obvious that real world simulations were not used during EPA testing in the first place, otherwise 6 years of VW software shenanigans would not have happened. Whether the EPA has retested vehicles after Phase I or not, who can say?

2) I don't suppose that VW is going to roll out any "secrets". Whatever they roll out, in my estimation, will have 100% backing from the EPA. You have to remember, the EPA is not working for the consumer, they're working for fines for their own concerns. They're not a consumer protection department, which is why they never addressed the fraud perpetrated by VW on VW's consumers. If VW meets the EPA emissions standards, the EPA will be satisfied.

3) VW defrauded its consumers for six years, remember. Why wouldn't they go the route of the least expensive course of action at this point: Pleasing the EPA. They've pretty much protected themselves from their consumers by settling the class action suit and excluding almost every 2.0 L TDI owner in the USA from the ability to sue them individually both over the fraud, and any subsequent damage or lack of reliability from the "fix".

The EPA is allowing the VAG to save face on the six-year-long "cheat". It may not look like it due to the size of the fine, but they also did not recommend a fraud investigation by the FTC and DOJ which would have hit the VW brand much harder, and would ultimately demand restitution independent of any "fix" or buyback arrangement.
 

Mythdoc

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^^In light of your response, I'll stick to my response that you should check your tinfoil hat.
 

turbobrick240

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Both 1.6 L and 2.0 L are EA189 TDIs. The only difference is displacement. Everything else is the same.

-- Nicole
They are in the same family, but there are many differences. Even the European 2L ea189 engines with more or less the same hardware have very different software.
 

NAZ TDI

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1) Your question is not relevant to my question. It is obvious that real world simulations were not used during EPA testing in the first place, otherwise 6 years of VW software shenanigans would not have happened. Whether the EPA has retested vehicles after Phase I or not, who can say?

2) I don't suppose that VW is going to roll out any "secrets". Whatever they roll out, in my estimation, will have 100% backing from the EPA. You have to remember, the EPA is not working for the consumer, they're working for fines for their own concerns. They're not a consumer protection department, which is why they never addressed the fraud perpetrated by VW on VW's consumers. If VW meets the EPA emissions standards, the EPA will be satisfied.

3) VW defrauded its consumers for six years, remember. Why wouldn't they go the route of the least expensive course of action at this point: Pleasing the EPA. They've pretty much protected themselves from their consumers by settling the class action suit and excluding almost every 2.0 L TDI owner in the USA from the ability to sue them individually both over the fraud, and any subsequent damage or lack of reliability from the "fix".

The EPA is allowing the VAG to save face on the six-year-long "cheat". It may not look like it due to the size of the fine, but they also did not recommend a fraud investigation by the FTC and DOJ which would have hit the VW brand much harder, and would ultimately demand restitution independent of any "fix" or buyback arrangement.
I think the real villain in this case is the EPA, with their unnecessarily strict standards! They're just a bunch of desk jockeys trying to justify their jobs by their ever tightening emissions standards. My TDI does not stink nor emit black exhaust, and the engine is quiet. No one would know it is a Diesel except for the logo on the trunk lid. The previous NOX standards were sufficient to keep the air clean, and VW Diesels met those standards.
I think the EPA bigwigs are just upset that they didn't catch this, a small West Virginia school did, and now they are trying to wipe the egg off their face by creating a big stink over VW. Why isn't there just as big a stink over the Chrysler/Jeep (really Fiat) Diesels that are guilty of the same thing?
 

Mythdoc

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I think the real villain in this case is the EPA, with their unnecessarily strict standards! They're just a bunch of desk jockeys trying to justify their jobs by their ever tightening emissions standards. My TDI does not stink nor emit black exhaust, and the engine is quiet. No one would know it is a Diesel except for the logo on the trunk lid. The previous NOX standards were sufficient to keep the air clean, and VW Diesels met those standards.

I think the EPA bigwigs are just upset that they didn't catch this, a small West Virginia school did, and now they are trying to wipe the egg off their face by creating a big stink over VW. Why isn't there just as big a stink over the Chrysler/Jeep (really Fiat) Diesels that are guilty of the same thing?

With all that we know VW did you're still searching for a different villain?
 

Miss_Athanatos

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I think the real villain in this case is the EPA, with their unnecessarily strict standards! They're just a bunch of desk jockeys trying to justify their jobs by their ever tightening emissions standards. My TDI does not stink nor emit black exhaust, and the engine is quiet. No one would know it is a Diesel except for the logo on the trunk lid. The previous NOX standards were sufficient to keep the air clean, and VW Diesels met those standards.
I think the EPA bigwigs are just upset that they didn't catch this, a small West Virginia school did, and now they are trying to wipe the egg off their face by creating a big stink over VW. Why isn't there just as big a stink over the Chrysler/Jeep (really Fiat) Diesels that are guilty of the same thing?
If anyone was paying attention back in September 2015, it was revealed that the EPA knew about the "cheat" before it became public, because, HEY! They were already working on a deal for dough with VW.

http://gearheads.org/epa-knew-about-vw-cheat-software-before-public-scandal/

There were other articles I read as well wherein it was revealed that people had reported to CARB years before the scandal broke that VW had to be cheating, since no one currently in industry could meet the diesel emissions requirements.

I don't know the EPA's motivations regarding Chrysler/Fiat, but I do know that when the VW scandal broke, a lot of engineers were saying and writing that they knew VW as well as other diesel car mfgs. had to have been cheating.

-- Nicole
 

Mythdoc

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Ok, after the "exhaust seemed fine to me, must be government overreach" poster and the conspiracy theory poster, I'm going to see myself out. Have fun!
 

flargabarg

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Stage II is a new catalyst and the sensors necessary to do on board diagnosis of the catalyst condition. It is possible but unlikely that it will be a substantial change to the rest of the behavior.

The reports of DPF and EGR failures could just as easily have been people who had one already about to fail. How many reports of those failures have we seen here? Plenty. They are not reliable parts. Even a 1% failure rate in the first month after fix would result in many thousands of owners reporting a fault.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Stage II is a new catalyst and the sensors necessary to do on board diagnosis of the catalyst condition. It is possible but unlikely that it will be a substantial change to the rest of the behavior.

The reports of DPF and EGR failures could just as easily have been people who had one already about to fail. How many reports of those failures have we seen here? Plenty. They are not reliable parts. Even a 1% failure rate in the first month after fix would result in many thousands of owners reporting a fault.
It is true that reports of hardware failures could have easily been components already ready to fail. No doubt. However, it seems like more than a simple correlation to the "fix" according to the circumstances of the failures reported. Yes, they are not reliable parts in some regards, and don't seem to live well particularly if you don't put your foot in it once in awhile and make the cars run.
 

flargabarg

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It is true that reports of hardware failures could have easily been components already ready to fail. No doubt. However, it seems like more than a simple correlation to the "fix" according to the circumstances of the failures reported. Yes, they are not reliable parts in some regards, and don't seem to live well particularly if you don't put your foot in it once in awhile and make the cars run.
Wait, which one are you saying? Because it seems like you are saying both.

What I'm getting at is this: if you know any mechanics, you'll know that they can tell stories of people who get something done to their car and then blame the next failure on the shop, no matter how unrelated it is. They get new tires and then blame the alternator failure on the shop, or something else like that. It's common enough that literally every mechanic and shop has multiple stories like that. So it's really no surprise to me that people are blaming all sorts of engine failures on this fix. There are millions of these cars in use. If that happens even a tiny amount of the time it's still tens of thousands of people having problems, and nothing really can be said to sway their minds.

In this country the EPA and CARB have both stated repeatedly that they are requiring full durability testing and no noticeable loss of performance for the fix to be considered successful. If those things are not true then everyone will get another opportunity to opt out. It's in the settlement documents, too. The 2015 fix was approved because it met performance, efficiency, emissions, and durability targets. If the other fixes are approved they will be held to the same standard, and Volkswagen is being forced to stand behind it with an extended warranty on the components the fix touches. You really cannot compare it to the fixes elsewhere.
 

2015vwgolfdiesel

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On paper, it looks like the best warranty on our planet

Getting a *new* old 2015 is great, but having an old one you fix is even better. For me.

I will avoid the $900-ish TT&L, and another $315-ish regarding insurance, interest, and lien removal on the *new* unit
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Wait, which one are you saying? Because it seems like you are saying both.
What I wrote:

What is possible: hardware components were already ready to fail.

What is actually probable: the "fix" caused the problems.

-- Nicole
 

flargabarg

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Claims like that really need some proof behind them. Otherwise we can't tell the difference between those two things.
 

Miss_Athanatos

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Claims like that really need some proof behind them. Otherwise we can't tell the difference between those two things.
Agreed. That is why many of the owners in the UK want an independent investigation into whether the "fix" is causing the damage or not. Many have stated repeatedly in online commentary that they're being told various things: dealers state that the "fix" has nothing to do with it; independent mechanics are saying the "fix" is the cause.
 

AVM62

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After driving my car for three weeks after the fix I can say I really like the fix. Who ever programed the software knew what they were doing and had experience driving a manual transmission vehicle. The car feels much more refined and will not stall as fast as before. It pulls like a tractor at low engine speeds yet is zippy on the highway. I have no way of telling if it uses more DFT or not. So far very happy I kept my car.
After returning from a 4500 mile trip across the southern USA I'm pleased with the way my car ran.

I averaged 48 MPG for the trip doing the speed limit which was 75 mph most of the places I traveled. Passing on the two lane roads of Texas where the speed limit is 75 was no problem at all.

I added a half quart of oil. When I got back it was time for my 40,000 service where they added "less than a box" of DEF. I had gone 6500 miles since my stage 1 fix.

I'm very happy I kept my car.
 

AVM62

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I got my Phase two fix done. It took 11 days but I ‘m happy with the results.
Car seems to have even more low end torque, engine is very responsive.
Fuel economy seems to be the same or better, won’t know for a while as I
usually only have to fill up once a month except for trips, can’t wait for my next trip.
 
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AVM62

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Took my first trip after both fixes and got 47.87 MPG covering 781 miles over three days. This was highway, back roads, mountains & heavy traffic with one half hour nap with the A/C running. This is 3-4 MPG better than I was getting
 

ntwrkd

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After returning from a 4500 mile trip across the southern USA I'm pleased with the way my car ran.
I averaged 48 MPG for the trip doing the speed limit which was 75 mph most of the places I traveled. Passing on the two lane roads of Texas where the speed limit is 75 was no problem at all.
I added a half quart of oil. When I got back it was time for my 40,000 service where they added "less than a box" of DEF. I had gone 6500 miles since my stage 1 fix.
I'm very happy I kept my car.
Why did you have to add a half quart of oil? Was it low to begin with?
 

AVM62

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Why did you have to add a half quart of oil? Was it low to begin with?
I check my oil level every fill up. When I get a half quart down from full I top it off. Only had to top it off once during the trip.
 
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