ULSD Additives vs LSD Additives

Kier · Oct 11, 2006

Recently I have seen ULSD appear more and more. When I decide to switch over to ULSD permanently do I need to change my fuel additive? I have seen the ELF product on tdiparts.com and worldimpex.com specially formulated for ULSD. Question: Can I continue to use my Stanadyne Performance Formula One-Shots, or should I immediately use the newer formulated ULSD additive?
Just want to give the PD what it needs to survive the winters, lubrication, and cetane increase.

2004 Jetta GLS TDI (PD - BEW Engine), 57K miles

dieseldorf · Oct 11, 2006

No, Kier, it would only be a concern if you were driving a 2007 or newer car fitted with DPF.

Drive more, worry less

Take care.

Kier · Oct 11, 2006

Thanks DD. I can continue to use my recently purchased case of 24 One-Shots. Regards.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 12, 2006

Stanadyne has changed its formulation (and its price) for use with ULSD. I can't tell if it's because there's a need for more lubricity or if it's for emissions. At any rate, I haven't seen anything that says that you cannot continue to use any remaining Stanadyne you have.

Joe_Meehan · Oct 12, 2006

Kier said:
Recently I have seen ULSD appear more and more. When I decide to switch over to ULSD permanently do I need to change my fuel additive? I

Why do you NEED fuel additives now?

Smokerr · Oct 12, 2006

IndigoBlueWagon said:
Stanadyne has changed its formulation (and its price) for use with ULSD. I can't tell if it's because there's a need for more lubricity or if it's for emissions. At any rate, I haven't seen anything that says that you cannot continue to use any remaining Stanadyne you have.

It seems like there were some issues with raising sulfur levels in the additives, so some had to come out with new (or new labels that said it was ok)

We have had ULSD up here for 4-5 months, and when I backed off the additive, the smoking began again (ergo the Smokerr id.). So, I went back to putting the Racor in.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 13, 2006

I went to a meeting last night with Bosch and Stanadyne folks and they said exactly what you did, Smokerr. They did have to change the formulation to make sure the fuel with the additive would still meet the ULSD and the emissions standards.

The Stanadyne rep (not surprisingly) also talked about how the new standards for lubricity are both inadequate and unevenly applied. Although he clearly had an agenda, I am inclined to believe some of what he said. However, it makes me feel that running a few precent of bio is a better idea than ever for lubricity. And he also cautioned against additives that emulisfy moisture into the fuel, but I think his focus was on engines that tend to sit (like gensets). My car doesn't sit much.

AndyH · Oct 13, 2006

ULSD allows use of advanced emission control devices - which gives us cleaner exhaust...but ULSD isn't doing much for the engine. Stanadyne (the only additive supplier that also makes injection equipment), Lubrizol, Infineum, and others make it clear that we need higher lubricity.

The ULSD fuel switch forced reworking the additives - reducing sulfur was part of the problem, but taking care of problems that come with the 2007 emissions is another factor. The new engines will double the rates of EGR - more soot, more acid formation. Injection pressure is up, heat is up (harder on oxidation stability of the fuel - and more deposits), orifices are smaller (lower tolerance for deposits)... The new additives have higher detergent rates and also help stabilize the fuel beyond what was necessary for LSD. They can also help control soot and acid formation.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2236_rev6_06.pdf

You can still use all the old additives in your 2006 or earlier engine, with either LSD or ULSD - so no trouble there. The new additives should work better in either fuel.

My '97 Passat with Sprint 520s (IQ on the minimum) will smoke a little at WOT with untreated fuel. There's much less WOT smoke with ULSD...and I can't make smoke - even with an Italian tuneup - with ULSD treated with the new AMSOIL additive.

Andy

Joe_Meehan · Oct 13, 2006

AndyH said:
...but ULSD isn't doing much for the engine. Stanadyne .. Lubrizol, Infineum, and others make it clear that we need higher lubricity. ..

Now if they were to tell us we needed less of their product I would sit up an listen.

IndigoBlueWagon · Oct 13, 2006

Ain't that the truth.

Kier · Oct 13, 2006

AndyH said:
ULSD allows use of advanced emission control devices - which gives us cleaner exhaust...but ULSD isn't doing much for the engine. Stanadyne (the only additive supplier that also makes injection equipment), Lubrizol, Infineum, and others make it clear that we need higher lubricity.

The ULSD fuel switch forced reworking the additives - reducing sulfur was part of the problem, but taking care of problems that come with the 2007 emissions is another factor. The new engines will double the rates of EGR - more soot, more acid formation. Injection pressure is up, heat is up (harder on oxidation stability of the fuel - and more deposits), orifices are smaller (lower tolerance for deposits)... The new additives have higher detergent rates and also help stabilize the fuel beyond what was necessary for LSD. They can also help control soot and acid formation.

https://www.amsoil.com/lit/databulletins/g2236_rev6_06.pdf

You can still use all the old additives in your 2006 or earlier engine, with either LSD or ULSD - so no trouble there. The new additives should work better in either fuel.

My '97 Passat with Sprint 520s (IQ on the minimum) will smoke a little at WOT with untreated fuel. There's much less WOT smoke with ULSD...and I can't make smoke - even with an Italian tuneup - with ULSD treated with the new AMSOIL additive.

Andy

Andy,

Just read between the lines. I am going to give the Amsoil product a try.

AndyH · Oct 13, 2006

Yes, Kier. The new products were released early October.

The Diesel concentrate (ADF), cold flow improver (DFF) and cetane boost (ACB) are reworked, in new friendly bottles, and have the same treat rate - one ounce to 5 gallons.

Here's info on how the new additive changed from the old.

Here's an article from the June '06 Infineum Insight journal on what to expect this winter as ULSD goes nationwide. Page 1 Page 2 Page 3

Andy

AndyH · Oct 13, 2006

Joe_Meehan said:
Now if they were to tell us we needed less of their product I would sit up an listen.

No sweat! Keep in mind that when the injection equipment manufacturers publish that they can't honor warranty if customers use non-spec fuel, and if they also say that the fuel on the streets doesn't meet specs, that suggests to me that I have a decision to make.

http://www.stanadyne.com/new/ppt/showfile.asp?id=2499

Have a great weekend!
Andy

Joe_Meehan · Oct 14, 2006

AndyH said:
No sweat! Keep in mind that when the injection equipment manufacturers publish that they can't honor warranty if customers use non-spec fuel, and if they also say that the fuel on the streets doesn't meet specs, that suggests to me that I have a decision to make.

I certainly would use a recommended additive if the manufacture of my injection equipment, Bosh - VW I believe, made that kind of statement. However, as far as I can tell, they have not indicated that the available fuel, including ULSD does not meet their specifications. As for statements from a manufacturer of injection equipment, who just happens to also be a major manufacturer of additives, is not going to carry much weight with me.

AndyH · Oct 14, 2006

Joe_Meehan said:
I certainly would use a recommended additive if the manufacture of my injection equipment, Bosh - VW I believe, made that kind of statement. However, as far as I can tell, they have not indicated that the available fuel, including ULSD does not meet their specifications. As for statements from a manufacturer of injection equipment, who just happens to also be a major manufacturer of additives, is not going to carry much weight with me.

I understand, Joe. VW does recommend an additive at least as a winterizer. I 'get' that it appears that Stanadyne can gain from promoting additive use. If you follow the link to the joint statement in my post, you'll see that the statement comes from the world's players in fuel injection equipment - and only one of them makes additives.

I've read articles from other companies, and seen lab test results that back-up the joint statement. And customers of mine that don't use additives have had fuel economy loss and injector failures. I completely realize that my customer base is regional and very small, compared to the numbers of players in the joint fuel quality statement, but I haven't yet read anything that suggests the statement isn't valid.

Andy

DesertV10 · Oct 14, 2006

What isn't clear to me is why I need additives at all. I have the best oil (for the moment)- factory fill, use B5 ULSD fuel, do I really need the added cost and hassle of additives?

V10 TDI, mild winter climate

Bob_Fout · Oct 14, 2006

DesertV10 said:
What isn't clear to me is why I need additives at all. I have the best oil (for the moment)- factory fill, use B5 ULSD fuel, do I really need the added cost and hassle of additives?

V10 TDI, mild winter climate

Most don't need them..they just provide a little extra protection.

The cost is minimal as is the hassle.

DesertV10 · Oct 14, 2006

Thanks Bob. Thought the cost had just gone up.

Bob_Fout · Oct 14, 2006

DesertV10 said:
Thanks Bob. Thought the cost had just gone up.

At wal-mart etc. you can get the 96 oz bottles of powerservice white or gray/silver for $12.00. Figure 5 oz per tank. An extra 6 cents per tank.

Kier · Oct 14, 2006

DesertV10 said:
What isn't clear to me is why I need additives at all. I have the best oil (for the moment)- factory fill, use B5 ULSD fuel, do I really need the added cost and hassle of additives?

V10 TDI, mild winter climate

If you can find a station that serves up quality diesel that your car loves you may not need additives. I use them religiously to keep the intake clean. The car simply does not perform the same without them.

truav8r · Oct 14, 2006

ULSD is now here in central PA, according to the stickers on the pump. I have a couple years worth of Primrose 405C. Any reason I should change my additive??

Powder Hound · Oct 14, 2006

Bob_Fout said:
... Figure 5 oz per tank. An extra 6 cents per tank.

You mean 6 cents per gallon.

Various people who wish not to have to buy additives and use them are certainly welcome not to. And statements by VW and Bosch will support them in their resolve. VW and Bosch will also happily supply new injection equipment when the original equipment wears out.

Now, answer this: How is it different for a supplier of injection equipment to say you don't need additives that will keep your equipment from wearing out, as opposed to a supplier of equipment and additives to say something like pay me now or pay me later?

If VW doesn't think I need additives, then that's great. How many miles is that recommendation supposed to guarantee for me? And if those injectors don't quite make it, is VW going to buy new ones for me? Somehow I doubt that VW's largess will extend more than, say 100 feet or so past the warranty, and at more than 200k miles that was a while ago.

I am, at this point, my own warranty, and I am quite sure that oil, grease, and good fuel additives are cheaper than parts.

Bob_Fout · Oct 15, 2006

Powder Hound said:
You mean 6 cents per gallon.

Various people who wish not to have to buy additives and use them are certainly welcome not to. And statements by VW and Bosch will support them in their resolve. VW and Bosch will also happily supply new injection equipment when the original equipment wears out.

Now, answer this: How is it different for a supplier of injection equipment to say you don't need additives that will keep your equipment from wearing out, as opposed to a supplier of equipment and additives to say something like pay me now or pay me later?

If VW doesn't think I need additives, then that's great. How many miles is that recommendation supposed to guarantee for me? And if those injectors don't quite make it, is VW going to buy new ones for me? Somehow I doubt that VW's largess will extend more than, say 100 feet or so past the warranty, and at more than 200k miles that was a while ago.

I am, at this point, my own warranty, and I am quite sure that oil, grease, and good fuel additives are cheaper than parts.

Ah yes, math error.

$0.63 per tank

(5/96)*12 = 0.625

ULSD Additives vs LSD Additives

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