Did the dealership tell me accurate buyback information???

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
So now I'm thinking do the CA smog test without first doing the "modification" and further postpone the decision. Low mileage is because not commuting anymore. Thanks!
What is preventing you from deciding? The impacts on the longevity of the car won't be known for years, if ever, and fixed TDIs have warranties that will cover them during that time anyway.

The decision comes down to how much you are getting for the buyback vs. repair vs. price to buy another TDI
 

walterwood

Member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Location
Berkeley, CA
TDI
2009 TDI Jetta Sportwagen
RE: 23U3 modification vs. buyback - - which is better?

The "fixed" (23U3 modification) warranty appears to extend 4 years from the date of the "fix," so that might be reason to delay the date of the fix. I don't know how to determine a threshold dollar price that would make it better to do the "buyback" than a "modification." One issue is that buying another equivalent TDI might not be easy. I know the history and care of what I have owned since new and getting a replacement would be one more hassle.


What is preventing you from deciding? The impacts on the longevity of the car won't be known for years, if ever, and fixed TDIs have warranties that will cover them during that time anyway.

The decision comes down to how much you are getting for the buyback vs. repair vs. price to buy another TDI
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I can understand delaying the fix in order to maximize the warranty period, but I'm more curious as to why you haven't determined *whether* you're going to get the fix (as opposed to when). That said, if you decide to get the fix you won't experience a difference in warranty terms based on the mileage you drive per year.

Not just equivalent, but better TDIs are readily available. I used cargurus to set an alert just so I can keep abreast of what's out there in our area (I'm in SoCal and have it set to a 500 mile radius, though). I can't tell you what the cutoff is going to be since that's a personal decision. I can tell you what I did, though:

I had a 2012 JSW with just over 120K miles on it (I turned it in right at my tolerance level for deferred DSG and timing belt maintenance). I bought it for approximately $19K. I turned it in for somewhere between $17-18K last year during the first month they were taking appointments. We leased a 2016 eGolf to get us through the transition period until they were selling 2015s again.

Last month, I brought home a 2015 SEL GSW with 65K miles for 15K. I was looking at a Golf for 11K but I passed on that after my wife reminded me we are expecting a son soon (in May) and with our daughter and lab we won't have a lot of room. I got my buddy who was looking for a new car into that Golf...turns out it also had the lighting, technology, and parking sensors but the dealership didn't know it! I wanted those packages but the only GSW with them I could find was 22K.

I feel competent to do a pre-purchase inspection and I have a VCDS (which you could borrow if you don't know/can't find anyone more local to you) to check for any lurking issues. I'd strongly encourage you to upgrade from your 2009 into a 2015. See how much you will get for your buyback. Then check cargurus for a car you are comfortable driving. Compare the two numbers :)

Buy the 2015 you find and schedule the 2009 for return ASAP before things get trickier. The only snag would be if you have a manual and you absolutely must have a manual, because those seem more difficult to come by. The 2015s will have a warranty to cover most of the big ticket concerns and you can visually checkout the wear and tear, but you'd have to really pick a clunker to get something that doesn't have less wear than your 2009.

So much technology, too. The 2015s have an upgraded drivetrain, KESSY, better infotainment, nicer seats, dual climate control, etc.

You could also see what you are going to get just for doing the fix but keeping the car, but I don't think that's going to get you the most bang for buck based on what I'm seeing the market do. Some people are talking about not doing the fix at all and not taking any money from VW, but that just seems like leaving money on the table unnecessarily.
 

walterwood

Member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Location
Berkeley, CA
TDI
2009 TDI Jetta Sportwagen
RE: 23U3 modification vs. buyback - - which is better?

I think extending the warranty by 4 years from the date of "the fix" matters more to me than the mileage waranty because my projected mileage is relatively low - - right now I'm at 33,063 miles on my 2009 Jetta TDI SW and even if by Dec. 2018 the mileage is up to the 40,001-45,000 bracket the "restitution payment" remains the same at $6,011.73 and the "vehicle return amount" remains $15,125. I have inserted various 2018 return dates into the calculator and the payment amounts don't change. I like the idea of monitoring cargurus to see what a similar mileage newer TDI Jetta SW would cost but so far I'm seeing at least $3K more than $15,125 and that would get me a newer car but I really would not know how meticulously it was cared for or how hard it has been driven as compared to the 2009 I've babied since new. There is also a certain amount of hassle buying another car.


I can understand delaying the fix in order to maximize the warranty period, but I'm more curious as to why you haven't determined *whether* you're going to get the fix (as opposed to when). That said, if you decide to get the fix you won't experience a difference in warranty terms based on the mileage you drive per year.

Not just equivalent, but better TDIs are readily available. I used cargurus to set an alert just so I can keep abreast of what's out there in our area (I'm in SoCal and have it set to a 500 mile radius, though). I can't tell you what the cutoff is going to be since that's a personal decision. I can tell you what I did, though:

I had a 2012 JSW with just over 120K miles on it (I turned it in right at my tolerance level for deferred DSG and timing belt maintenance). I bought it for approximately $19K. I turned it in for somewhere between $17-18K last year during the first month they were taking appointments. We leased a 2016 eGolf to get us through the transition period until they were selling 2015s again.

Last month, I brought home a 2015 SEL GSW with 65K miles for 15K. I was looking at a Golf for 11K but I passed on that after my wife reminded me we are expecting a son soon (in May) and with our daughter and lab we won't have a lot of room. I got my buddy who was looking for a new car into that Golf...turns out it also had the lighting, technology, and parking sensors but the dealership didn't know it! I wanted those packages but the only GSW with them I could find was 22K.

I feel competent to do a pre-purchase inspection and I have a VCDS (which you could borrow if you don't know/can't find anyone more local to you) to check for any lurking issues. I'd strongly encourage you to upgrade from your 2009 into a 2015. See how much you will get for your buyback. Then check cargurus for a car you are comfortable driving. Compare the two numbers :)

Buy the 2015 you find and schedule the 2009 for return ASAP before things get trickier. The only snag would be if you have a manual and you absolutely must have a manual, because those seem more difficult to come by. The 2015s will have a warranty to cover most of the big ticket concerns and you can visually checkout the wear and tear, but you'd have to really pick a clunker to get something that doesn't have less wear than your 2009.

So much technology, too. The 2015s have an upgraded drivetrain, KESSY, better infotainment, nicer seats, dual climate control, etc.

You could also see what you are going to get just for doing the fix but keeping the car, but I don't think that's going to get you the most bang for buck based on what I'm seeing the market do. Some people are talking about not doing the fix at all and not taking any money from VW, but that just seems like leaving money on the table unnecessarily.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I think extending the warranty by 4 years from the date of "the fix" matters more to me than the mileage waranty because my projected mileage is relatively low - - right now I'm at 33,063 miles on my 2009 Jetta TDI
I agree with what you're writing. I am trying to discuss whether you should get the fix vs. getting a newer car rather than when to get the fix. If you are going to do the fix then you should definitely wait as long as possible to do it. The only caveat about that is you should look to schedule your buyback or fix no later than September. There are reports coming in that VW is shuttering the doors relatively quickly and appointments are becoming increasingly difficult and VW is becoming selective in what they approve. If you opt for the buyback I suggest you do it ASAP.

My reasoning on the issue regarding the great unknown (my favorite thing to say to my friends who ask me about buying used cars is that the thing to remember is no one wakes up in the morning and decides to sell a car because it's running too good) is that a 2015 could have only been on the road for approximately two years. Almost all of the major components are covered under the emissions warranty and the last piece, the transmission, is relatively bullet proof (both the DSG and manual) and fairly simple to check the operation. With my offer of the VCDS, you can literally plug that in and check for any fault codes and see if anything is lurking.

So now we're concerned about maintenance and visual inspection. If you're looking at a car with around 30K miles then the initial maintenance was done by the dealership, some are still going to be under the bumper to bumper warranty, and I'd just assume the most recent weren't done on the way to turn in. You'll also be looking at a fair number of CPOs with that mileage and they'll have a 2yr/unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty. If you're looking at a 60K miles car, like mine and my buddy's were, then a little sleuthing will get you the service records. I was able to pull mine and my buddy's golf. Here's how:

The CARFAX will sometimes indicate services completed. You can call the dealership and ask them for service records for that car. Dealerships aren't interconnected so if all of the service records aren't at that dealership you have to keep hunting. You could check local dealerships based on the car's registration area (that's how I found the service records for my 2012 years ago). They may or may not tell you. The 2015 I just picked up happened to have all of its service records at a dealership in San Diego that I have an account with and was able to finesse the records from them before I owned it (some service managers won't give out the service records to random people calling in).

My personal opinion is that a 2015 is a new enough that the risk here is very low, even if a service was skipped at the end. I pre-emptively did both my and my buddy's DSG service because they are either 20K overdue or 20K too soon at 65K miles. My general feeling is that neither one matters but to the extent that a 20K overdue service on the DSG was going to grenade it that it would have already done so. The extra wear, if there has been any, won't show its effects until probably ten years down the road when any amount of other things will certainly take their toll on the vehicle anyway. You drive even less miles than I do so I doubt you will ever notice or find out.

Of course, your yearly mileage does beg the question of whether a TDI is the right replacement vehicle for you. If you are driving around a city for around 4K miles per year, you are doing much more damage to the vehicle than anyone who drove it for two years as hard as they could to hit 60K miles (30K miles per year is almost certainly all commuting/freeway driving). You could get a 2018 TSI for the same price or less than the 2015 TDI and probably a sportier city experience.

Visual: the only thing that really matters here if you agree with my logic about the rest. It's a 15 minute process to walk around, kick the tires, and look at the seat stitching to see how much wear the 2015 experienced in the two years it was in service. I understand where you're coming from. I refused to get rid of my 1998 bug for much of the same reason so I'm not trying to minimize the connection and love you have for your 2009. But no matter how much you babied your car it's 10 years old. I believe you owe it to yourself to at least take a 2015 and a 2018 around a few blocks and freeway runs to see for yourself if they're worthy of consideration.

Hassle: I understand everything I wrote is a big huge hassle. I hate dealerships with a passion. So far I was lied to about everything under the sun and even things that don't make sense. The 2nd key for my 2015 never materialized (I did talk the price down for that at least). The Golf for my buddy was supposed to come with a $100 dollar referral bonus once I passed on it but brought my buddy in for the sale (I didn't ask for the bonus, it was an unsolicited offer after the sale was complete. Why the salesperson lied about it, I'll probably never know). The payoff, though, has been beyond worth it every time we load up our family for an OB/GYN appointment in San Diego and we aren't trying to cram into my little bug with my seat at a 90 degree angle to make room for the daughter's car seat. I was also able to avoid all the expensive maintenance that was due on my 2012. Just food for thought and I hope this is useful information...

[one last point: it doesn't look like VW is recirculating clunkers. All of the 2015s I've seen were in pristine good condition regardless of mileage]
 

walterwood

Member
Joined
May 23, 2009
Location
Berkeley, CA
TDI
2009 TDI Jetta Sportwagen
Bizzle, thanks for the informative and well reasoned thoughts. I do recall seeing something about needing to decide on TDI fix vs. buyback by September 2018 but don't recall where I saw that - - You make some good points about reasons to consider a newer car and I'll give it some thought. Not having to go to a filling station often is a big reason I like TDI and the gasoline powered cars don't have the same range.

I agree with what you're writing. I am trying to discuss whether you should get the fix vs. getting a newer car rather than when to get the fix. If you are going to do the fix then you should definitely wait as long as possible to do it. The only caveat about that is you should look to schedule your buyback or fix no later than September. There are reports coming in that VW is shuttering the doors relatively quickly and appointments are becoming increasingly difficult and VW is becoming selective in what they approve. If you opt for the buyback I suggest you do it ASAP.

My reasoning on the issue regarding the great unknown (my favorite thing to say to my friends who ask me about buying used cars is that the thing to remember is no one wakes up in the morning and decides to sell a car because it's running too good) is that a 2015 could have only been on the road for approximately two years. Almost all of the major components are covered under the emissions warranty and the last piece, the transmission, is relatively bullet proof (both the DSG and manual) and fairly simple to check the operation. With my offer of the VCDS, you can literally plug that in and check for any fault codes and see if anything is lurking.

So now we're concerned about maintenance and visual inspection. If you're looking at a car with around 30K miles then the initial maintenance was done by the dealership, some are still going to be under the bumper to bumper warranty, and I'd just assume the most recent weren't done on the way to turn in. You'll also be looking at a fair number of CPOs with that mileage and they'll have a 2yr/unlimited mileage bumper to bumper warranty. If you're looking at a 60K miles car, like mine and my buddy's were, then a little sleuthing will get you the service records. I was able to pull mine and my buddy's golf. Here's how:

The CARFAX will sometimes indicate services completed. You can call the dealership and ask them for service records for that car. Dealerships aren't interconnected so if all of the service records aren't at that dealership you have to keep hunting. You could check local dealerships based on the car's registration area (that's how I found the service records for my 2012 years ago). They may or may not tell you. The 2015 I just picked up happened to have all of its service records at a dealership in San Diego that I have an account with and was able to finesse the records from them before I owned it (some service managers won't give out the service records to random people calling in).

My personal opinion is that a 2015 is a new enough that the risk here is very low, even if a service was skipped at the end. I pre-emptively did both my and my buddy's DSG service because they are either 20K overdue or 20K too soon at 65K miles. My general feeling is that neither one matters but to the extent that a 20K overdue service on the DSG was going to grenade it that it would have already done so. The extra wear, if there has been any, won't show its effects until probably ten years down the road when any amount of other things will certainly take their toll on the vehicle anyway. You drive even less miles than I do so I doubt you will ever notice or find out.

Of course, your yearly mileage does beg the question of whether a TDI is the right replacement vehicle for you. If you are driving around a city for around 4K miles per year, you are doing much more damage to the vehicle than anyone who drove it for two years as hard as they could to hit 60K miles (30K miles per year is almost certainly all commuting/freeway driving). You could get a 2018 TSI for the same price or less than the 2015 TDI and probably a sportier city experience.

Visual: the only thing that really matters here if you agree with my logic about the rest. It's a 15 minute process to walk around, kick the tires, and look at the seat stitching to see how much wear the 2015 experienced in the two years it was in service. I understand where you're coming from. I refused to get rid of my 1998 bug for much of the same reason so I'm not trying to minimize the connection and love you have for your 2009. But no matter how much you babied your car it's 10 years old. I believe you owe it to yourself to at least take a 2015 and a 2018 around a few blocks and freeway runs to see for yourself if they're worthy of consideration.

Hassle: I understand everything I wrote is a big huge hassle. I hate dealerships with a passion. So far I was lied to about everything under the sun and even things that don't make sense. The 2nd key for my 2015 never materialized (I did talk the price down for that at least). The Golf for my buddy was supposed to come with a $100 dollar referral bonus once I passed on it but brought my buddy in for the sale (I didn't ask for the bonus, it was an unsolicited offer after the sale was complete. Why the salesperson lied about it, I'll probably never know). The payoff, though, has been beyond worth it every time we load up our family for an OB/GYN appointment in San Diego and we aren't trying to cram into my little bug with my seat at a 90 degree angle to make room for the daughter's car seat. I was also able to avoid all the expensive maintenance that was due on my 2012. Just food for thought and I hope this is useful information...

[one last point: it doesn't look like VW is recirculating clunkers. All of the 2015s I've seen were in pristine good condition regardless of mileage]
 

rgoetz

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 1999
Location
NJ
TDI
None currently
I plan to return my JSW in the fall (Sept). My dealer just told me this same line that if VW reaches 85% before the deadlined, they will stop offering buybacks/repairs.

This is indeed nonsense, correct?
 

Rico567

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
I plan to return my JSW in the fall (Sept). My dealer just told me this same line that if VW reaches 85% before the deadlined, they will stop offering buybacks/repairs.

This is indeed nonsense, correct?
Dealers may (and, it appears, often will) pull something out of their nether orifice and solemnly present it as fact. The only facts that matter are in the legal agreement arrived at in Federal court and approved by the judge. And it says end of December*. Which do you think will prevail?

*Note: a person desiring to do the buyback must have completed the application process by September, but that is all, and a clear different thing than choosing a return date..
 

flargabarg

Veteran Member
Joined
Jul 31, 2005
TDI
2011 Touareg Lux TDI
They certainly could stop offering enough appointments to allow latecomers to actually get scheduled. Or only enough that you might not be able to get an appointment nearby. Not saying that this will happen, just that it could
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.
 

rgoetz

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 14, 1999
Location
NJ
TDI
None currently
Thanks for the replies. I do need to keep this car until September.
 

Slickshoes

Active member
Joined
Jun 16, 2003
Location
Chesapeake, Va
TDI
1999 Jetta TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.

Correct, the 85% threshold is so VW does not have to pay additional fines. Hence, why VW service is creating urgency for customers like myself to make a decision and pull the trigger on the modification or buyback options, so they don't get penalized.



However, I disagree that VW can "refuse" after the 85% is met. That is not accurate. Again, the purpose of the 85% push is so they don't have to pay more financial penalties. I am going to hold out until September and then I can still keep my car til December. Why not? The wear and tear I put on this car is costing me zero depreciation. I bought my '15 Passat TDI SEL brand new back in 2014. Plus, my concern would be resale value, if I ever did consider to sell. Even the resale value for gas VW's have dropped, at least in my area. I have never kept a car long enough to drive it into the ground anyway. That could be a viable option for me in this scenario if I wanted to keep the car for another 10+years, but that's not the case for me. However, Ill take the $32,500 they are offering me for my VW. I have basically driven my car with zero depreciation for the past 4 years and put 37k miles on my car. I'll take the cash and figure out what I want next. Either way, the diesels will be back out in the next few years.
 

Rico567

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Jun 13, 2003
Location
Central IL
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL Premium (Turned in 7/7/18)
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle:
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how internet myth and misinformation is propagated. The 85% in no way represents some magic threshold whereby VW can stop accepting buybacks. As was explained, it is merely the bar VW has to cross to avoid additional penalties under the legal settlement.
 

Slickshoes

Active member
Joined
Jun 16, 2003
Location
Chesapeake, Va
TDI
1999 Jetta TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Quote:
Originally Posted by bizzle:
After crossing the 85% threshold they are no longer held to a financial penalty for the remainder so not only can they refuse to accept anymore after that but I'd plan on them doing so if I was in the same situation.


And this, ladies and gentlemen, is how internet myth and misinformation is propagated. The 85% in no way represents some magic threshold whereby VW can stop accepting buybacks. As was explained, it is merely the bar VW has to cross to avoid additional penalties under the legal settlement.

Agreed!!!! :D
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
What makes you think they are going to continue offering buybacks and fixes after they can no longer be penalized for the remaining cars without them? Corporate generosity from VW? Pixie dust?
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Uh, the legal mandate that they do so perhaps?
The legal "mandate" is that they bring at least 85% of the affected vehicles into compliance via buybacks or fixes or pay the penalty per vehicle that isn't brought into compliance.

Once the government fines VW for your specific VIN, they will no longer have a legal mandate to fix or buy back your car.

The fix is being offered to avoid the financial penalty. Once VW pays the financial penalty, they won't care about fixing your car anymore and the court won't care whether they do or don't--the terms of the settlement will be fulfilled.

Maybe VW will do it out of goodwill but be clear that's the only thing your plan rests upon--not a court settlement stipulating that they must fix your vehicle for an open-ended period of time. The time period is clearly spelled out in the settlement documents and there is nothing mystical or mythological about me pointing out those bright lines that currently exist in the settlement language.
 

drsven

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Location
Bay Area
TDI
2011 JSW - DG Buyback
The October 2016 partial consent decree established three forms of injunctive relief:


  • Buyback, lease termination, and vehicle modification recall program. Volkswagen must remove from commerce or modify at least 85% of the subject vehicles registered as of September 17, 2015, by June 30, 2019. To meet this requirement, Volkswagen must offer every owner or lessee of a subject vehicle a buyback, lease termination, or an EPA and CARB approved emissions modification. If Volkswagen fails to meet its obligation, it must pay an additional $85 million for each one percent below the mandated 85% requirement into the Trust.
  • ZEV Investments. Volkswagen is required to make $2 billion of investments over a period of up to 10 years into actions that will support the increased use of zero emission vehicle (ZEV) technology. Of the $2 billion, $1.2 billion must be directed toward national ZEV investments and $0.8 billion must be directed toward ZEV investments in California.
  • Establishment of the Environmental Mitigation Trust. Volkswagen is required to pay $2.7 billion into the Trust to reduce NOx emissions of certain vehicles. The Trust funds are divided between administration costs, tribes, the 50 states, the District of Columbia, and Puerto Rico. Wisconsin's initial share from this decree total $63,554,019, or 2.35% of the total amount in the Trust. There are different Beneficiary Trust Agreements for the States and the Tribes.
 

tadawson

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
The legal "mandate" is that they bring at least 85% of the affected vehicles into compliance via buybacks or fixes or pay the penalty per vehicle that isn't brought into compliance.

Once the government fines VW for your specific VIN, they will no longer have a legal mandate to fix or buy back your car.

The fix is being offered to avoid the financial penalty. Once VW pays the financial penalty, they won't care about fixing your car anymore and the court won't care whether they do or don't--the terms of the settlement will be fulfilled.

Maybe VW will do it out of goodwill but be clear that's the only thing your plan rests upon--not a court settlement stipulating that they must fix your vehicle for an open-ended period of time. The time period is clearly spelled out in the settlement documents and there is nothing mystical or mythological about me pointing out those bright lines that currently exist in the settlement language.
That is certainly a part of it. There may also be verbage that the entire settlement is null and void, and VW get's it's a$$ fined off if they fail to comply with the buyback of any eligible car for the entire specified period, 85% or not. It would be nonsensical to be otherwise, bjt it seems like obvious things like this are beyond your capability to comprehend . . .

I doubt that anyone outside the court and VW has seen what they are bound by - all we see are the customer facing documents.
 

drsven

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 7, 2009
Location
Bay Area
TDI
2011 JSW - DG Buyback
I don't see how hitting the 85% threshold does anything but ensure that VW won't be paying additional penalties. How would reaching this threshold nullify VW's obligation to offer consumers a buyback or fix option? Do we need to go back to "spirit" discussions here?
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
That is certainly a part of it. There may also be verbage that the entire settlement is null and void, and VW get's it's a$$ fined off if they fail to comply with the buyback of any eligible car for the entire specified period, 85% or not. It would be nonsensical to be otherwise, bjt it seems like obvious things like this are beyond your capability to comprehend . . .

I doubt that anyone outside the court and VW has seen what they are bound by - all we see are the customer facing documents.
The court documents are public documents and members of the public (ignoring the fact that we are not mere members of the general public but actual litigants) have access to them. There are no secret documents prescribing additional settlement terms.

Weren't you talking about spreading myths around the internet and yet here you are basing your position on secret documents that no one has seen?

Flip it the other way: VW is not financially responsible for 15% of the affected vehicles. This scheme's viability depends on you not being within that 15%.

You won't have to wait years to find out. Eventually, it'll become increasingly difficult to obtain phase 2 just like it's become increasingly difficult to take a car in for buyback. People will have to travel 100+ miles and the techs doing it likely won't have any experience. Parts will be on the shelve...in Germany. If you get the kit with some missing parts, tack on an extra couple weeks to the time it's in the shop (just like now).

As far as the spirit of the settlement, the intention seems obvious to me that customers are to be incentivized adequately to get phase 1 done immediately and to come back reasonably soon once phase 2 is available. I'm relatively certain that VW isn't going to bar the doors when they hit the 85.000% threshold; but that's not same thing as believing they'll keep the doors open for years after the settlement has concluded.

I'm not going to continue arguing this point. I don't have a dog in this fight. I was mainly attempting to provide some insight into the legal process and VW's liability in this but there's no reason to bang my head against a wall if you aren't interesting in learning from me. I have accurately predicted the court's reaction to both the stripping vehicles and salvage buybacks, however, so even if you don't believe my credentials the accuracy of my past analyses should give you pause in your certainty.
 

cyclopropene

Well-known member
Joined
Apr 4, 2014
Location
MA
TDI
12 Golf DSG (Bought Back 12-12-18)
What makes you think they are going to continue offering buybacks and fixes after they can no longer be penalized for the remaining cars without them? Corporate generosity from VW? Pixie dust?
The individual release of claims. Paragraph 1 of the release of claims states "In exchange for benefits that... Volkswagen has agreed to provide to me..."

If VW fails to provide those benefits (i.e. buyback/fix with restitution) to owners of cars for which claims have been made and proper documentation submitted by September and who attempt to schedule an appointment by December, the individual release of claims will be void. That would leave affected owners the option to open new legal claims (perhaps as a class) against VW, which could cost them more than just buying back or fixing those cars.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
The individual release of claims. Paragraph 1 of the release of claims states "In exchange for benefits that... Volkswagen has agreed to provide to me..."
If VW fails to provide those benefits (i.e. buyback/fix with restitution) to owners of cars for which claims have been made and proper documentation submitted by September and who attempt to schedule an appointment by December, the individual release of claims will be void. That would leave affected owners the option to open new legal claims (perhaps as a class) against VW, which could cost them more than just buying back or fixing those cars.
The person I was responding to has advocated elsewhere that the warranty can be extended beyond the initial agreement if the owner waits to complete phase 2 of the fix until the 5/60K warranty is about to expire (years from now). My response was to that scenario and not about people who are trying to schedule their appointments in a timely manner like you are describing.
 

tadawson

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Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Quoted from above, I think from the settlement:

To meet this requirement, Volkswagen must offer every owner or lessee of a subject vehicle a buyback, lease termination, or an EPA and CARB approved emissions modification

Where, exactly, in this mandate, do you see an exclusion that they can stop at 85%? It clearly states *MUST* which has no dependency on the 85% . . . Or can't you read that?
 

tadawson

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Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
TDI
2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
The individual release of claims. Paragraph 1 of the release of claims states "In exchange for benefits that... Volkswagen has agreed to provide to me..."

If VW fails to provide those benefits (i.e. buyback/fix with restitution) to owners of cars for which claims have been made and proper documentation submitted by September and who attempt to schedule an appointment by December, the individual release of claims will be void. That would leave affected owners the option to open new legal claims (perhaps as a class) against VW, which could cost them more than just buying back or fixing those cars.
Like I said, it voids the agreement . . .

- Tim
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Quoted from above, I think from the settlement:

To meet this requirement, Volkswagen must offer every owner or lessee of a subject vehicle a buyback, lease termination, or an EPA and CARB approved emissions modification

Where, exactly, in this mandate, do you see an exclusion that they can stop at 85%? It clearly states *MUST* which has no dependency on the 85% . . . Or can't you read that?
VW has already made the offer to 100% of the affected population. The portion you cited doesn't mean they need to wait around indefinitely for people to avail themselves of the offer.

You acknowledge that you received a letter informing you of the phase 2 availability and need to schedule it with your local dealership. That meets the requirement you just cited above.
 

tadawson

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Jun 14, 2013
Location
Lewisville, TX
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2013 Passat TDI SEL, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
Uh huh . . . and it was crystal clear that that offer is valid until the end of 2018 . . . not at 85% or some other inane BS . . . The term was clearly stated - not at 85% but at the end of 2018. We never said this goes on forever, just that the 85% and stop claim is absurd and unfounded.
 

rambalu80

Veteran Member
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
Location
Katy TX
TDI
2011 VW JSW TDI DSG
VW has already made the offer to 100% of the affected population. The portion you cited doesn't mean they need to wait around indefinitely for people to avail themselves of the offer.

You acknowledge that you received a letter informing you of the phase 2 availability and need to schedule it with your local dealership. That meets the requirement you just cited above.

I don't think anybody stated that VW will wait indefinitely for people to avail themselves of the offer. That is an assumption you are making for others and you are providing no value here but fearmongering.


Below is what I received from VW on May 3 (via email and snail mail):


You are receiving this letter because you may be eligible to receive a remedy, including compensation, under the 2.0-Liter VW/Audi Diesel Emissions Settlement, but you have not yet completed a claim. Certain current or former owners or lessees of eligible 2.0-Liter vehicles may be eligible to receive compensation for a Buyback, Early Lease Termination, or Approved Emissions Modification. In order to participate, you must complete a claim application (including submitting all required documents) by September 1, 2018 or risk losing your opportunity to participate in the Settlement Program and receive a cash payment. The 2.0-Liter Settlement Program ends on December 30, 2018.

Scrolling down further:


December 30, 2018 – Deadline to Complete Buyback, Early Lease Termination, or Approved Emissions Modification: The 2.0-Liter Settlement Program will end on December 30, 2018, and you must complete your selected remedy by that date. If you delay scheduling your closing appointment, we cannot guarantee closing appointment availability on the date and time and at the Dealer you desire, particularly given the December holidays. Volkswagen will be unable to accommodate you if you are unable to find an available appointment due to delay in scheduling. Additionally, if you do not have all of the required paperwork at your closing appointment, Volkswagen may be unable to reschedule your closing appointment if you wait until the last days of the Settlement Program. If that happens, you will not receive benefits under the Settlement Program.

If I understand the above correctly, I am eligible for the fix or buyback as long as I complete the claim application by Sep 1st and participate in the chosen Settlement Program by December 30 2018.


Note that the program will end on December 30 and it doesn't state anywhere that the program will end when VW has bought back or fixed at least 85% of the affected vehicles.


Also FYI...While 100% of the affected vehicle owners are eligible to participate in the Settlement Program, VW can only make an offer if a claim is submitted. So, I am not sure what prompts you to state that VW has made their offer to 100% of the affected population.
 
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bizzle

Veteran Member
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May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
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2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
I don't think anybody stated that VW will wait indefinitely for people to avail themselves of the offer. That is an assumption you are making for others and you are providing no value here but fearmongering.
I'm not fearmongering. tadawson was arguing elsewhere in support of positions like this:
So, just like I've said, you could wait until 10 years, 364 days and 161,999 miles on your odometer, get Phase 2, and be under warranty an additional 5 yrs/60k...


..ie. 16 years and 222,000 miles. Whichever occurs first. :D
which are clearly advocating not having the second phase of the fix done until well after 2018 in order to try and extend the warranty beyond what VW intended to offer.

What you are seeing is the tail end of my response, which is more throughly explained in that thread, that available appointments are going to dry up once VW reaches the 85% threshold and the portion you quoted supports my position--VW specifically warns that they won't be held responsible if you can't schedule an appointment on time due to lack of availability. They attribute it to the December holidays, but buyback owners are finding out appointments are already difficult to schedule with fewer dealerships that are much more spread out (some people are having to drive hundreds of miles to an appointment).
 

Slickshoes

Active member
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Jun 16, 2003
Location
Chesapeake, Va
TDI
1999 Jetta TDI, 2004 Jetta TDI, 2015 Passat TDI SEL
What makes you think they are going to continue offering buybacks and fixes after they can no longer be penalized for the remaining cars without them? Corporate generosity from VW? Pixie dust?

Bizzle, I appreciate your contribution to my thread. However, sometimes simplicity is the key to brilliance.

No sense in over complicating this situation. I simply wanted to gain additional clarity based on the bogus feedback I was receiving from the dealership (on multiple occasions). No where does it state in any of the legal documentation I myself or others have received that VW will reneg once the 85% threshold is met. So your "Corporate generosity" and "Pixie dust" statement is clearly inaccurate, erroneous, and false.

Again, the whole purpose of my thread was to validate that the dealership feedback was inaccurate in order to help others gain truth and clarity regarding this matter, not confusion.
 
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