90K using WVO in a 2005 PD!

My VAG COM readings straight from the pump read around 185 deg in the summer time. You can't really ask for anything better than that. Also, my oil is ready to be injected when my car is up to operating temperature. Again, you cant ask for anything better than that.

GC FPHE kit is hugely overpriced and a huge rip off. But, a FPHE is the way to go.

As far as burning better, after 180 deg the viscosity in relation to temperature graph starts to level off really fast. Anything higher than 190 reallly nets you very little in the viscosity department; however, the risk of damaging parts in your IP really start to rise quickly.

Science studies have shown canola oil to exhibit similar viscosity measurements of diesel fuel at or around 302 deg F. This is impossible to achieve safely pre IP, and I have not found a way of doing this post IP. I thought injection line heaters was the key but they do absolutely nothing. The oil does not sit in the injection lines long enough for sufficient heat transfer (noted by very little to no temperature changes from my temp sendor on my return line) This was found at highway speeds. Stop and go or city traffic may be a different scenario but I do not like to burn VO in that situation for a very long time.

As far as better atomization goes, 180 deg oil temps will be fine. If your so concerned, you can have your popping pressures of your nozzels increased to help atomize the thicker fuel better. My experience has shown it to run just as good if not better on VO therefore, its burning very similar to diesel, at least in making power.

mrchill said:

I did his intake recently. Car runs exceptionally well. The intake was probably 40% clogged, and the valve pockets about 15-20%. This I find is normal for these miles even on D2. The car is very fast and starts and runs well. Mileage is excellent and injector variation is nil. I say all this because he is one of the people I know who is absolutely fastidious with fuel quality. I saw his setup. The hands down BEST I have seen. The whole arrangement is so clean, that you could walk through with a white suit and feel you may be getting his garage dirty.

The car is just as clean. The trunk, the engine bay, the underside. Cleanliness is a strong factor. His fuel is as clean as it can get and free of all moisture. Clearly, his system works.

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Chase sent me the pics you took of his cat and turbo:

vwcampin said:

The problem is that once you get temps past 200F sustained, you can start to harm the electronics within the IP on your TDI.

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Why do you say this? Any references?

I imagine that there is an upper temperature that the IP can safely handle but I've not come across anything documenting what this is.

T'sTDI said:

I have not found a way of doing this post IP. I thought injection line heaters was the key but they do absolutely nothing. The oil does not sit in the injection lines long enough for sufficient heat transfer (noted by very little to no temperature changes from my temp sendor on my return line) This was found at highway speeds. Stop and go or city traffic may be a different scenario but I do not like to burn VO in that situation for a very long time.

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T's,

I expect that the heaters would be adding a significant amount of heat.

Where is you return line temperature gauge located?

The amount of fuel that leaks by the injector needle and is returned from the injectors is negligible and I imagine would tend to cool off in the top of the injector and return hoses.

An English company ran some testing of a novel deign of German injection line heater that they sell. There site is down at present but you could look when it comes back up http://www.dieselveg.com .

DarrenUK said:

Why do you say this? Any references?

I imagine that there is an upper temperature that the IP can safely handle but I've not come across anything documenting what this is.

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Darren,
I do not have any definitive reference to offer. It is only what I have gleaned off of all of the major WVO forums over the past 3-4 years. I do believe that someone on the Infopop forum had a IP electronic related issue after sustained temps of well above 200F. But again, that was easily a couple years ago. Take it with a grain of salt, but I believe most in the WVO community tend to keep their WVO temps between 160-200F.

I think that a lot of the high temp. info stemmed from some testing Dana Linscott did on his vehicle and his theories. He found as the IP on his pick up was fed fuel above a certain temp it started to act as a heat sink and in effect returns diminished - also he made some, as far as I'm aware, untested assumptions about what temperatures might cause ill effects.

As for electronically controlled pumps being damaged by high temps. That would be the VP44 pump which VW used on the 2.5tdi fitted to some cars (reasonably uncommon -also used on some Dodge pick ups). These have a computer mounted on the top of the pump that can suffer from high temp fuels. The VP37 does not have this and does not have the same high temp. intollerance.

See - http://wiki.obed.org.uk/index.php?title=Bosch_VP44

No doubt at some temp. you risk damage to a VP37 but I wouldn't worry at temps a bit above what you are setting as a top limit.

The only good attempt to find a top limit for any injection pump that I can remeber seeing is detailed at -

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/159605551/m/8881077512

Best

Darren

DarrenUK said:

T's,

I expect that the heaters would be adding a significant amount of heat.

Where is you return line temperature gauge located?

The amount of fuel that leaks by the injector needle and is returned from the injectors is negligible and I imagine would tend to cool off in the top of the injector and return hoses.

An English company ran some testing of a novel deign of German injection line heater that they sell. There site is down at present but you could look when it comes back up http://www.dieselveg.com .

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We added heaters from Fattywagons on my car. They get extremely hot. I mean hot to the point where your concerned about using them for any extended length of time.

I have them wired to a switch. My temp sendor is at my return line right off the pump. Sure this might not be the best location but it does read the difference between regular diesel fuel and heated VO. It reads about a 40 deg difference, it will read higher in idle situations and low rpm but typically on the highway it reads around 145 sustained. I switched my injection line heaters while on the highway and noted no change in the temperature at all.

For now I use it in the winter to get the injection lines themselves good and hot before I switch to VO.

Unless someone wants to chime in and their experience, I just don't think the fuel sits long enough in the injection lines for significant heat transfer. Either that, or the injection lines themselves are too thick for effective heat transfer.


Update: 2000 VO miles already. Best decision I ever made. Runs great.

T's

Pull the return hose from the injectors off the IP outlet banjo barb and put it into a bottle then get another short length of tube and push it onto the outlet banjo barb and clamp/plug/block it off then start your car.

You'll see what a small amount of fuel flows back from the injectors. I think you'd agree that when mixed with the greater flow back from the IP its not enough to make any real difference to the temp your sensor is reading.

note- I've not done this on a Tdi but have on Mercedes and VW idi engines which I expect leak slightly more fuel from the injectors as the Tdi injectors are made to finer tolerances.

Best

Darren

Injector Line Heaters

T'sTDI said:

Unless someone wants to chime in and their experience, I just don't think the fuel sits long enough in the injection lines for significant heat transfer. Either that, or the injection lines themselves are too thick for effective heat transfer.


Update: 2000 VO miles already. Best decision I ever made. Runs great.

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Hey T, Just to let you know I also have injection line heaters and like you I have a temp sensor in my return line at the IP and I also have one on one of my injector lines at the injector after my line heaters. Here are the temps from my 60 minute commute to work this morning. Outside temp is 1 deg C. Start up car and turned on injection line heaters, after 10 min drive including line up at coffee shop, temp at injector is 140 deg F, still on diesel. Engine up to temp switched over to VO. Everything up to temp after 30 min. Driving at 120 kph, VO temp at IP return line is 180 deg F, temp at injector line is 230 deg F. Turned off my line heaters and the temp at the injector line dropped to 185 deg F. I think the line heaters are good. Good to preheat before you switch over and gives me an extra 30 to 40 deg F boost after the IP.

After installing Vegtherm line heater, I can and will say I made a bad choice. Not that the vegtherm is junk, it does work. It only gives me 45 degrees of extra heat with a looped return. If i've been driving around for a half hour, and the outside temperature is above 40F, and the veg tank is up to 105F, I still only have 145-150 at freeway speeds. That's an awful lot of "and's". For me that's neither hot enough or soon enough. I just ordered a 26 plate FPHE to install and I will remove the vegtherm. Why remove it? The FPHE will give me 175-180F at the IP at freeway speeds, so why run the alternator to heat the oil any further and possibly stress the IP?
Unless I'm missing something, that should be plenty of heat for the oil and i'll be able to switch over after 8 minutes of travel time instead of 30 minutes on a "warm" day. Any suggestions from you guys that have been at this way longer than I have?

_____________
2001 Jetta GL
UpSolute Stage 1
Tinted Windows
205/60/15's
Modified GreaseCar Kit
Soon to have VWMikel tune

Nevada,
The FPHE should be all you need and should end your temp worries I have a Vegtherm (on a thermostat that turns it off at around 168F) and a FPHE with my Greasecar kit. The FPHE I believe is more than enough on it's own, however since I live where it gets pretty cold in the winter, it is just a littel added insurance for me.

vwcampin said:

Nevada,
The FPHE should be all you need and should end your temp worries I have a Vegtherm (on a thermostat that turns it off at around 168F) and a FPHE with my Greasecar kit. The FPHE I believe is more than enough on it's own, however since I live where it gets pretty cold in the winter, it is just a littel added insurance for me.

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Okay, i'll ask... where did you get a vegtherm thermostat with a 168F setting? Or, did you use the standard sensor and put it in a "non-standard" location on the Vtherm?

Nevada_TDI said:

Okay, i'll ask... where did you get a vegtherm thermostat with a 168F setting? Or, did you use the standard sensor and put it in a "non-standard" location on the Vtherm?

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Plantdrive offers it as an option:
http://www.plantdrive.com/shop/product.php?productid=16204&cat=250&page=1

Mine is actually the old style that they do not offer anymore. The one in the link actually clips onto the Vegtherm itself. The style I have has a temp sensor that I have installed into the top of my WVO filter. So it turns off the Vegtherm once the WVO in my filter reaches approx 168F.

vwcampin said:

Plantdrive offers it as an option:
http://www.plantdrive.com/shop/product.php?productid=16204&cat=250&page=1

Mine is actually the old style that they do not offer anymore. The one in the link actually clips onto the Vegtherm itself. The style I have has a temp sensor that I have installed into the top of my WVO filter. So it turns off the Vegtherm once the WVO in my filter reaches approx 168F.

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That's the one I have already. If I keep it in, I guess I'll have to play with the location on the heater... Thanks for the link though.

Update on Chasee...Now at 125K

Just saw Chasee indicate he passed the 125K mark on WVO...
http://www.greasecar.com/forum_topicview.cfm?frmtopicID=19289http://vegoil.us/Images/Vendors/ABQemissionsGraph.jpg

His cojones just keep on getting bigger and bigger. Here's to wishing him continued success with his WVO. Perhaps by 400k miles his engine will pack it in and I'll finally be able to point and claim that it was WVO that caused its early demise....

I don't get this. There seems to be constant amazement in the USA forums about working wvo/svo conversions, or assumptions that in the UK/Euro we run just bio or mixed fuel.

From a UK converters point of view, I don't know of ANY failed conversions, save for the following two caviats:

1) a kit or conversion not up to the correct standard - there are tons out there using things like pollock valves with no purge facility, no auto warning, no purge timer, no auto changeover temperature control etc.
2) failure to change the oil. This is the only failure I have personally seen having worked on/converted many vehicles, a SDi with 25k with no oil change - that killed it. It is VITAL that 5k is a maximum for oil changes, it may be possible to survive longer without polymerisation setting in, but it's pot luck. I have NEVER heard of a reliable case of polymerisation with oil flushing and 5k changes as the routine maintainence.

Smartveg, Dieselveg and many others like small indis like myself put hundreds of cars out there with decen kits on 100% wvo (twin tank, start/stop on diesel) with absolutely no inherrent issues at all.

I absolutely boggle at why some people find it so hard, in the same way that I find it hard to understan the many people who won't work on diesels because things like glow plugs are way too complicated....


BTW CONGRATS regarding 90k on the pd for the op, great result. Here in the UK most serious converters regard it as one of the most suitable engines ever built, it's unit injectors having less issues such as cold injection pipes, seizing rotor heads (CAV) that plagued other engines. Of course, on the forums many will swear that hell will open up and your rings will produce so much gum that the gum will leak out the engine and spill onto the road glueing your car to the road. But they are also the people that swear a w123 merc is the only vehicle to run on account of it can run on a mixture of paint and mud shoved into the IP with a broom, with no damage for a million miles at full throttle and was the last car made that never, ever, needed spare parts or an oil change. I guess everything gets put out of proportion.

Greg.

dieseldorf said:

Chase, I guess many of us remain curious about your success compared to so many failures at a fraction of the miles you've done. What's your magic?

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