Next generation renewable diesel now available in NorCal?

WeLikeBlue

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 21, 2009
Location
Elk Grove, CA
TDI
2004.5 Passat
I am now running a 50/50 tank of D2 and HPR.

Pros: Engine seems more responsive (seems being the operative word here)
Exhaust is slightly less smoky when doing Italian tune-up
Exhaust doesn't smell as strongly as it did before
Price here is 10 cents/gal cheaper than next-cheapest D2 stations (I paid $2.99/gal two days ago)

Cons: Cannot tell any difference in fuel mileage (yet)
Can't tell if starting is any easier (never gets cold enough here to know:rolleyes:

I'll report back when I'm on 100% HPR and have some more observations.:)
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
Thanks for the report!
 

TDI-ed

Veteran Member
Joined
Sep 6, 2009
Location
CA, NY
TDI
Golf and Audi A4 AWD TDI
Heard from a friend who ran HPR after running B100 of experiencing IP seal leak now. Obviously cant confirm it was the HPR, but a strong coincidence. Just an FYI.
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
Heard from a friend who ran HPR after running B100 of experiencing IP seal leak now. Obviously cant confirm it was the HPR, but a strong coincidence. Just an FYI.
I would expect that with this fuel given the low lubricity compared to biodiesel. Using Stanadyne or other lubricity additives could help.
 

Buckwild90

Well-known member
Joined
Oct 18, 2014
Location
memphis,Tn
TDI
2013 golf tdi with dsg(Buyback), 2001 Jetta tdi 5mt 414k miles, 2002 Jetta 5mt 289k miles
im in memphis i would love to see this around here. 75 cetane? there should be some extra ponies at the top end with it being that volatile in the combustion chamber, i think this hpr with an addition of 10% biodiesel for lubrication purposes would be the ultimate fuel for any compression ignition engine
 

Geomorph

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Location
Sacramento, CA
TDI
2005 Golf and 2002 NB
Heard from a friend who ran HPR after running B100 of experiencing IP seal leak now. Obviously cant confirm it was the HPR, but a strong coincidence. Just an FYI.
I'm concerned about this too although I only used up to B20, which I used consistently for about 4 years. Just filled up with the second tank of Diesel HPR. Still running strong. No fuel leaks. This fuel already contains a lubricity additive, which is why it is 98 percent biomass based instead of 100 percent. The fuel meets the astm petroleum diesel standard so that may be why it can have the same effect on seals as ULSD when switching from high percent biodiesel.
 

finnloag

Active member
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Heard from a friend who ran HPR after running B100 of experiencing IP seal leak now. Obviously cant confirm it was the HPR, but a strong coincidence. Just an FYI.
My SO ran nearly a whole tank of Diesel HPR. I had wanted her to blend, but she had other things on her mind. The next tank of B100 smelled like s*@! (who'd have thought I'd say that biodiesel?) It's gotten better, so maybe there was some seal leakage; I haven't had the courage to pull the engine cover. At any rate, I may try alternating B100 & Diesel HPR when I'm down to half a tank; hopefully that will be enough biodiesel to keep the seals happy.
 

DoubleReflex

Veteran Member
Joined
May 31, 2003
Location
California, USA
TDI
jetta,02&03, reflex silver (both autos)
Heard from a friend who ran HPR after running B100 of experiencing IP seal leak now. Obviously cant confirm it was the HPR, but a strong coincidence. Just an FYI.
Add me to the list of a leaky injector pump. I have always filled up at propel with b20 since they've carried it. I filled up with HPR for the first time last fill-up. 220 miles into the tank, fuel is pouring, not dripping, from the injector head gasket. I had no leaks, AT ALL, before using this fuel. I only have 81,000 miles on this car, and I don't believe it is just coincidence.

I guess I'll also post this in the other HPR thread.
 

Geomorph

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 17, 2007
Location
Sacramento, CA
TDI
2005 Golf and 2002 NB
I don't think it is coincidence either but given the age of your seals (12 or 13 years) they have probably been exposed to low sulfur diesel (which expands the seals), ultra low sulfur diesel (shrinks seals), B20 biodiesel (expands seals?), and diesel hpr (shrinks seals?). Maybe this has just been too many fuel changes?

Although my car has about 130,000 miles, the injector pump only has about 60,000 on it. The original pump was replaced with a factory remanufactured pump under an extended warranty when it leaked badly from the change over of low sulfur to ultra low sulfur diesel. No leaks on this pump so far (about 600 miles on the diesel hpr) but I am checking it regularly.
 
Last edited:

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
It would be very helpful if those who are experiencing leaks can also report whether they have ever had a new or rebuilt pump and how many miles or how many miles on their current IP.
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
I e-mailed them my experience, no response as of yet.
Our Performance Guarantee
"Propel fuels are the highest-quality fuels available. Drive with confidence knowing we’ll fix or replace any damage to your engine or fuel system in the unlikely event that our fuel is determined to be the cause of that damage."

Since they sell both B20 and B99, a good case can be made that this issue *can* be a direct result of the switch over. I imagine that an old IP would especially be vulnerable. If you were a customer of theirs previously, it would be worth pushing back with this. I think you can at least get a new IP out of it.

I'm really curious if newly rebuilt IPs will have a problem. I know that DFIS in Portland is using newer viton-like seals that are supposed to be immune to the swelling and shrinking of the old ones. That's why I think it is especially helpful to hear the age of the IPs being effected and if they've been rebuilt or not.
 

finnloag

Active member
Joined
Nov 7, 2004
Since they sell both B20 and B99,
I don't think Propel is selling B99 these days. The stiffest biodiesel cocktail you can buy from Propel is B50 in Washington. B20 is what they've been selling in CA.
Speaking of cocktails, I just mixed 8 gallons of Diesel HPR into my 2001 Golf TDI (so I'm around 50/50 biodiesel/Diesel HPR).
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
I don't think Propel is selling B99 these days. The stiffest biodiesel cocktail you can buy from Propel is B50 in Washington. B20 is what they've been selling in CA.
Speaking of cocktails, I just mixed 8 gallons of Diesel HPR into my 2001 Golf TDI (so I'm around 50/50 biodiesel/Diesel HPR).

Interesting. I always wondered whether there was any B99 at any of their pumps. Still a case to be made if IPs are going out for Propel users of B20 now on HPR.

You might want to research about mixing bio and renewable diesel though. I read some document that seemed to imply it was complicated because the chemistries are so different.
 

Matt-98AHU

Loose Nut Behind the Wheel Vendor
Joined
Apr 23, 2006
Location
Gresham, OR
TDI
2001 Golf TDI, 2005 Passat wagon, 2004 Touareg V10.
Just filled up with HPR near Elk Grove earlier today while doing some Pick-n-Pull parts shopping.

Definitely has a small increase in power/response. Does absolutely smoke less. I've got oversized injectors on loan in my B4 sedan at the moment and they do smoke no matter what. The difference is noticeable. I've only got 80 miles on the tank so far. No telling what the difference in Fuel economy will be until I've run the complete tank through. Mileage up until this point hasn't been great lately, though. Usually stuck in traffic, hauling a lot more weight than the average driver both in terms of heavy tools and hauling people, often times at the same time.

I used to run B20 regularly in my old Mk3 about 10 years ago. But since I did go on long trips back then, I would have to switch between regular diesel (most states were just transitioning to ULSD at the time) and B20 at my usual haunts in Michigan. The pump inevitably started leaking.

In the meantime as someone who wrenches a lot of TDIs, I have noticed a number of common issues on biodiesel. The way the seals swell on biodiesel is very uneven. And in fact they swell too much, in my opinion. In California, most of our biodiesel uses waste vegetable oil as a basestock. I've definitely seen a number of cars run regularly on the stuff have some nasty varnish-like build up inside the fuel system.

I purchased a 2005 Passat wagon a couple years ago for cheap, only had 80k miles on it, because the owner ran it on B100 almost exclusively. I have a stack of receipts totalling the amount of around $15,000 in repairs, many of which were to address a "vibration" issue from the engine. Injectors were replaced, balance shaft module changed to the gear driven unit, new cam and followers, new OEM axles, engine mounts, transmission, new injectors, new injector harness.

The real problem? The injectors (again). The openings for fuel inlet on the PD injectors are quite small and clog up fairly easily on sub-par fuel. To make matters worse, PDs basically cook the fuel before it even gets to injectors. Conventional biodiesel could often times break down before getting to the injectors in these engines. I replaced the injectors again in the car and it took care of the issue. While I was there, there was definitely a notable brown varnish in the passageways in the head that feed the injectors.

I've seen too many issues and oddities happen from running biodiesel, especially California biodiesel. The stuff I had in the Mid West was made from virgin soybean oil, that stuff was decidedly better.

Either way, my experimentation with that particular form of renewable diesel ended. Once I resealed my first injection pump on my own TDI back in 2006, I decided to keep things simple for my daily driver and reduce the amount of issues, I would keep running it on regular diesel from then on.

I've told many customers that I personally like the concept behind biodiesel, but the product itself tends to be sub-par. This new HPR stuff, on the other hand, has my attention. The end product seems a lot like the "synthetic" diesels out there that likely utilize the Fischer-Tropsch process of turning gas to liquid. The gas can be anything from natural gas to a gassified biomass. Very high quality, clean and super high cetane. And also much closer to the type of fuel manufacturers designed their engines for in the first place. Conventional biodiesel, not so much...

So, for those of you with issues having leaking pumps, that's the same issue you'd have switching to ULSD from bio. This confirms to me that chemically, HPR is more similar to conventional diesel. This is something I personally would prefer, as the seal swelling I've seen from re-sealing a number of biodiesel running injection pumps, is not natural. The chemical reactions caused by conventional biodiesel is not doing your fuel system internals any favors. And again, ULSD is what manufacturers designed the engines for in the first place. You want a renewable fuel that's going to give you fewer issues than biodiesel will and also allow you to seamlessly switch to ULSD when necessary? Here it is. HPR.

No washing down of cylinder walls causing fuel dilution of engine oil. No unnatural over-swelling of seals. No coking injector nozzles, no coking injector inlets on PDs or varnish. No issues with soot and ash loading in commonrail DPFs. In fact, from the lower amount of smoke I've seen out of the back of my B4 with oversized injectors, there should be less regens necessary on a DPF-equipped commonrail due to the smaller amount of soot created in the first place.

This is the type of renewable I personally have been waiting for.
 
Last edited:

Baumeister

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 19, 2004
Location
Auburn, CA
TDI
'15 Beetle Convertible, '03 New Beetle TDI 5sp, '94 Audi Cabriolet(AFN swap in progress)
Add me to the chorus. I filled up our '03 TDI NB on 3/11 with it in Rocklin,CA I honestly haven't thought about it since then until tonight.

Matt (and Justin) helped me re-seal(Viton) the IP a few years ago. It had its share of B20-B100 before the re-seal. Since the re-seal its been Chevron D2 every fill with a tank of Propel B20 a few times a year.
 

LarrE

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Location
Campbell,CA
TDI
2000 Jetta
Sangretdi, you shouldn't have anything to worry about if you just had your IP resealed with viton. I'd prefer if the stuff wasn't made from animal feedstocks (industrial ag is its own can of worms), but it beats petroleum. In my reading, this stuff has cetane of 80-90% in some cases :eek:.
I'm new to TDIs and have filled up with HPR a couple times now. All this talk about lubricity and cetane is way over my head so I'm not sure whether to be concerned about the IP seal. I guess I had better go thru the receipts I got with the car to if it's ever been resealed. I know the last owner ran it on B99 so I hope I'm not inviting a problem by switching to HPR. By the way, I got 47 mpg last fillup in my '00 Jetta and it's running great.
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
I'm new to TDIs and have filled up with HPR a couple times now. All this talk about lubricity and cetane is way over my head so I'm not sure whether to be concerned about the IP seal. I guess I had better go thru the receipts I got with the car to if it's ever been resealed. I know the last owner ran it on B99 so I hope I'm not inviting a problem by switching to HPR. By the way, I got 47 mpg last fillup in my '00 Jetta and it's running great.

What has it run since you've owned it and for how long? If you're running ulsd and have been for a while with no issues then I doubt you'll have a problem with HPR.
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
Matt, thanks for the thorough review and issues you've experienced with bio. Very helpful. I want this stuff in SoCal! Keep us updated on how your car likes it.
 

atc98002

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2006
Location
Auburn WA
TDI
2014 Passat TDI SEL Premium (sold back), 2009 Jetta (sold back), 80 Rabbit diesel (long gone)
And I want it in Seattle! (well, south of Seattle actually :p)
 

LarrE

Member
Joined
Jan 30, 2015
Location
Campbell,CA
TDI
2000 Jetta
What has it run since you've owned it and for how long? If you're running ulsd and have been for a while with no issues then I doubt you'll have a problem with HPR.
I've had the car about 2 months...not long enough to learn any acronyms, like ulsd?
The first 2 fill ups were B90. Then I switched to HPR because buying B90 in my neighborhood is a real hassle. The show up for 3 hours, 3 days a week and pump out of a box truck in a muddy parking lot. They want cash and don't have the ability to do a fill up. So one must guess at how many gallons to ask for. I guess buying gas must have been like that 100 years ago but I'm too used to the modern conveniences.
 

sangretdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Location
WA
TDI
Mk4 Golf
I've had the car about 2 months...not long enough to learn any acronyms, like ulsd?
The first 2 fill ups were B90. Then I switched to HPR because buying B90 in my neighborhood is a real hassle. The show up for 3 hours, 3 days a week and pump out of a box truck in a muddy parking lot. They want cash and don't have the ability to do a fill up. So one must guess at how many gallons to ask for. I guess buying gas must have been like that 100 years ago but I'm too used to the modern conveniences.

ha ha, those guys... i've been there once... i had to use my flashlight (they have no lights)while he tried to jump start the pump off a car battery. after 10 minutes of trying i just left. i have been buyin my b99 from a commercial place in santa clara, western states oil, open 24-7. but since running 2 tanks of the hpr, i think i'm switching full time to it.
 

sangretdi

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 7, 2013
Location
WA
TDI
Mk4 Golf
No washing down of cylinder walls causing fuel dilution of engine oil. No unnatural over-swelling of seals.
This is the type of renewable I personally have been waiting for.
b99 actually stopped my injection pump from leaking, as long as i ran it on b99 only. the po used d2 and the ip was leaking after 170K miles. when i bought the car i switched over to b99 and the leak stopped. problem was, i couldn't always get b99 on the road. and running d2 would make it leak like a sieve.

so was lucky enough to have MAtt reseal my leaky pump recently. and after reading this i'm hoping the new seals can handle the switch from b99 to hpr without leaking again!
 

SFHGolfTDI

Veteran Member
Joined
Nov 3, 2003
Location
Ventura, CA
TDI
2002 Jolf GLS TDI - Reflex Silver (purchased 2011) | Previously: 2001 Golf GL TDI - Indigo Blue (sold 2005)
b99 actually stopped my injection pump from leaking, as long as i ran it on b99 only. the po used d2 and the ip was leaking after 170K miles. when i bought the car i switched over to b99 and the leak stopped. problem was, i couldn't always get b99 on the road. and running d2 would make it leak like a sieve.

so was lucky enough to have MAtt reseal my leaky pump recently. and after reading this i'm hoping the new seals can handle the switch from b99 to hpr without leaking again!
I *think* that the new Bosch seal kits are viton and should have less of a problem. When I had mine rebuilt by DFIS in Portland, that's what they said at least. All good so far with your IP, sangretdi?

That's why I'm interested in hearing more specifics from those that do and don't develop leaks after switching to HPR and/or ULSD after biodiesel. I expect that anyone that has an original or non-newly rebuilt pump and has been running bio for any length of time will probably spring a leak. But I'm curious how rebuilt or resealed pumps will fare.
 

wxman

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 26, 1999
Location
East TN, USA
TDI
Other Diesel
Neste Oil's renewable diesel to be sold at Propel Fuel stations in California

Neste Oil Corporation
Press release
18 March 2015 4 p.m. (EET)

Neste Oil's renewable diesel to be sold at Propel Fuel stations in California

California based Propel Fuels has launched California's most advanced low carbon diesel fuel called Diesel HPR (High Performance Renewable) at its retail stations. Diesel HPR contains 98.5% Neste Oil's NEXBTL renewable diesel and is available at 18 locations across Northern California in Sacramento, San Jose, East Bay, Redwood City and Fresno.

Diesel HPR is a low-carbon renewable fuel that meets national and California diesel specifications for use in diesel engines while realizing the benefits of better performance, and lower emissions. The fuel does not contain any traditional biodiesel....
http://www.nesteoil.com/default.asp?path=1;41;540;1259;1260;24945;25177
 

zenguy

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Location
East San Francisco Bay Area, California
TDI
'05 Jetta GLS PD Wagon
interesting-- cut and pasted from the company website:

Neste Oil Corporation
Press Release
4 March 2015 at 9.30 a.m. (EET)

Neste Oil now the world's largest producer of renewable fuels from waste and residues
Over the last few years, Neste Oil has become the world's largest producer of renewable fuels from waste and residues. In 2014, the company produced nearly 1.3 million tonnes (1.6 billion liters) of renewable fuel from waste and residues. In practical terms, this is enough to power for two years all the 650 000 diesel-powered passenger cars in Finland with renewable NEXBTL diesel manufactured from waste and residues.

"We can be really proud that we have succeeded in increasing our use of waste and residue-based feedstocks in the production of renewable NEXBTL fuels to such a significant extent. Thanks to this, Neste Oil has in just a few years become the world's largest circular economy enterprise in the biofuels sector. The production of fuels from waste-based feedstock is resource-efficient, and our aim is to have the capability to use 100% waste and residues by 2017. We are constantly searching for new waste-based raw materials of increasingly poorer quality, and use the majority of our EUR 40 million R&D expenditure for raw material research," says Kaisa Hietala, Executive Vice President of Neste Oil's Renewable Products business area.

Renewable diesel from more than ten different raw materials

Examples of Neste Oil's waste and residue-based raw materials include animal and fish fats, used cooking oil and various residues generated during vegetable oil refining, such as palm fatty acid distillate (PFAD) and technical corn oil. These raw materials accounted for 62% of Neste Oil's renewable inputs in 2014 (52% in 2013, 35% in 2012).
Additionally, Neste Oil manufactures renewable products from vegetable oils, mainly from crude palm oil. Its proportion of the total feedstock usage has decreased markedly over the past few years and currently stands at 38% (47% in 2013, 65% in 2012). In all, Neste Oil is already able to produce renewable diesel from more than ten different raw materials, and the total amount of renewal diesel produced by Neste Oil in 2014 would suffice to power 2.8 million passenger cars for one year.

All of the company's renewable raw materials are sustainably produced and comply with both the requirements set out by legislation and the company's own stringent sustainability criteria. With regard to crude palm oil, Neste Oil only uses certified feedstock.

Production volume increasing and new products introduced to the market

Neste Oil produces renewable products based on its proprietary NEXBTL technology in its refineries located in Finland, the Netherlands, and Singapore. With its annual capacity of 2 million tonnes, the company is the world's largest producer of renewable diesel. The goal is to increase annual capacity to 2.6 million tonnes without making any major additional investments. Additionally, the NEXBTL product range will expand to cover entirely new applications outside traffic fuels, such as the chemical industry.
 

zenguy

Member
Joined
Dec 2, 2014
Location
East San Francisco Bay Area, California
TDI
'05 Jetta GLS PD Wagon
the station is close by and i'm on my 4th or 5th tank of the stuff -- so far so good. though i've only had the wagon a month or two so don't have a lot for comparison. the cetane numbers sounded really good though. i am wondering about lubricity and have been starting to add power service.
but after reading this through i could probably add a quart of B99 per tankful for a whole lot less...
 

bobt2382

Veteran Member - TDIClub Contributor
Joined
Aug 1, 2009
Location
NJ
TDI
2010 CW GOLF 4DR 6MT TDI
Would be nice to see a plant in the USA.
 
Top