Oil pan being fixed/replaced at 335k. Anything I should do while in there?
- Thread starter 777funk
- Start date
BobnOH
not-a-mechanic
At that mileage I might consider rolling in new rod and crank bearings. check with a real mechanic.
Some folks like to refresh or modify the oil pump and chain. Check the engine main seal.
12 years no takers
Some folks like to refresh or modify the oil pump and chain. Check the engine main seal.
12 years no takers
KrashDH
Top Post Dawg
Being "fixed" or replaced?
Does the fix include an aluminum welder, and hopefully some sort of NDT?
I installed a hybrid pan in my Golf (steel bottom, AL body) a couple months ago. I think I paid $65 for it. Definitely replace in this case, it would cost about the same anyway. Dependent on what the fix is.
I would just inspect everything you can see while you're in there. Look for any flakes when you drop the pan. Look for surface wear, gouges, etc.
Personally, I would not change out good working factory rod and and crank bearings just for the sake of doing it. My ALH has 330k on it, I had the pan off last year, and it looks new in there still. Bearings were all very tight. I've got a couple parts engines that also look the same. I've had this same experiance with pretty much all of the VW/Audi engines that I have worked on.
Its my view that factory bearings in good condition with 300k are better than regular Joe Mechanic replacements that are new. I don't think the factory work should be messed with unless there has been a failure.
With your pan off, I would just check around in there to make sure things are copacetic. Chances are they will be, or you would already know about it. Rear main seal could be checked, but you would have a LOT more work to do if it needs changing. Taking the pan off these is pretty easy to do.
dataflow
Well-known member
You could check and clean the oil pickup if it needs it.
UhOh
Top Post Dawg
And after you put things back together, install a SKID PLATE! (just put the third one on my most recently acquired Golf; the marks I see on my other Golfs is a clear visual of why the money and install time is worth it)
sisyphus
Veteran Member
- Joined
- Dec 8, 2008
- Location
- Appleton, Maine
- TDI
- 99.5, '01 A4 Jetta sedans, 5 sp box, Hamman mod, Joey mod, Bilsteins, 2.00" lift
IIRC the oil pump should be replaced, along w/ the chain, at 300k miles.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
Sisyphus, we always inspect oil pumps. We do not replace perfectly good oil pumps. The way to check ALH and later models... remove oil pan. Remove center screw for pump sprocket. They are tight. We strike them with a small hammer to loosen them. 45mm torx socket. Remove 3 bolts that hole windage tray and oil pump.
Remove 5mm allen headed bolts from oil pump front plate. remove center rotor and inspect lobe tips for damage. Remove outer lobe ring and check for galling. Reassemble and check for clearance between outer and inner lobe tips with feeler gauge. It should not exceed .006". If pump passes all tests, reinstall pump. We do not 'throw parts' at an engine. We have seen pumps that were not worn and reinstalled at over 500k. I know, crazy... right?
We found that the BRM sprocket, which is 27 teeth instead of 33 teeth for the ALH, will fit into the ALH and BEW engines, when you use the BRM tensioner, chain and sprocket. This makes the engine's oil pump increase volume and maintain pressure better at idle, which we really like. At 300k, it is not unreasonable to replace the chain and tensioner, as that is a maintenance item at 250k. This also requires a crankshaft sprocket bolt and the front seal, which if it hasn't been replaced, it is likely leaking. We use the PTFE seal, as the older spring seals are not supposed to be 'retro'd' for the newer and better seal. Spend the extra .50 on the right seal.
We also invented a very handy tool to remove the crank sprocket bolt and install the front flange seal, but with your oil pan off, all you need is a 3/4" block of hardwood (do not use pine! Oak is good..) to wedge between the crankshaft's #1 counterweight and the side of the block to keep the engine from turning when you remove the crank sprocket bolt.
As for bearings, we suggest that the #3 rod and #4 main bearing caps be removed and the bearing for those be inspected for wear. The rods are not unlikely to need replacement, as we usually do that maintenance between 250k and 450k, depending on the quality of the life-time maintenance and the driving habits of the owner. Reason for checking #3 rod is that is the most driven and hottest rod. To see rod wear, you must roll the top bearing out, with a small screwdriver in the tang. The top bearing is the one that receives the load.
Reason we check #4 for main is because we like to upgrade that bearing, if that is all it needs. Assume that when removing the #4 bearing, the lower bearing looks to be in perfect shape. VW is in the habit of building the mains with all lower bearing shells being solid and all upper shells radially slotted.
This arrangement occasionally becomes a problem, as the #4 main bearing is cross-drilled to oil the #3 rod bearing, allowing only a 50% duty cycle for the rod. Under hot and heavy load, for example, 100 degree day, 75 mph and a very long 3% grade, the #3 rod can overheat and break, usually punching a hole in the block. This same event has occurred on TDI's, FSI's, TSI's, and I'm sure some others I am not aware of. I do not understand why VW does not make the change, as it is a known event, with a simple cure.
The cure is main bearing kits that have 6 slotted and 4 solid bearings. We know that both Glyco and Kolbenschmidt make these kits and we used them, exclusively. The 'extra' bearing goes into the #4 bearing cap. Under a condition that the balance of the bearings look good, we will replace a single slotted main bearing cap on the #4 and call it an 'upgrade'. We will sell the single slotted main, if you like.
As for oil pans being 'fixed', we get a very good and inexpensive brand oil pan and simply replace them. Repairing an oil pan usually involves welding and an old oil pan does not weld very well, as it has oil contamination. $75 is our minimum charge for 'striking an arc', and the pan is not worth it. Replace it.
Uhoh and I agree. Money well-spent is a Panzer Plate.
Remove 5mm allen headed bolts from oil pump front plate. remove center rotor and inspect lobe tips for damage. Remove outer lobe ring and check for galling. Reassemble and check for clearance between outer and inner lobe tips with feeler gauge. It should not exceed .006". If pump passes all tests, reinstall pump. We do not 'throw parts' at an engine. We have seen pumps that were not worn and reinstalled at over 500k. I know, crazy... right?
We found that the BRM sprocket, which is 27 teeth instead of 33 teeth for the ALH, will fit into the ALH and BEW engines, when you use the BRM tensioner, chain and sprocket. This makes the engine's oil pump increase volume and maintain pressure better at idle, which we really like. At 300k, it is not unreasonable to replace the chain and tensioner, as that is a maintenance item at 250k. This also requires a crankshaft sprocket bolt and the front seal, which if it hasn't been replaced, it is likely leaking. We use the PTFE seal, as the older spring seals are not supposed to be 'retro'd' for the newer and better seal. Spend the extra .50 on the right seal.
We also invented a very handy tool to remove the crank sprocket bolt and install the front flange seal, but with your oil pan off, all you need is a 3/4" block of hardwood (do not use pine! Oak is good..) to wedge between the crankshaft's #1 counterweight and the side of the block to keep the engine from turning when you remove the crank sprocket bolt.
As for bearings, we suggest that the #3 rod and #4 main bearing caps be removed and the bearing for those be inspected for wear. The rods are not unlikely to need replacement, as we usually do that maintenance between 250k and 450k, depending on the quality of the life-time maintenance and the driving habits of the owner. Reason for checking #3 rod is that is the most driven and hottest rod. To see rod wear, you must roll the top bearing out, with a small screwdriver in the tang. The top bearing is the one that receives the load.
Reason we check #4 for main is because we like to upgrade that bearing, if that is all it needs. Assume that when removing the #4 bearing, the lower bearing looks to be in perfect shape. VW is in the habit of building the mains with all lower bearing shells being solid and all upper shells radially slotted.
This arrangement occasionally becomes a problem, as the #4 main bearing is cross-drilled to oil the #3 rod bearing, allowing only a 50% duty cycle for the rod. Under hot and heavy load, for example, 100 degree day, 75 mph and a very long 3% grade, the #3 rod can overheat and break, usually punching a hole in the block. This same event has occurred on TDI's, FSI's, TSI's, and I'm sure some others I am not aware of. I do not understand why VW does not make the change, as it is a known event, with a simple cure.
The cure is main bearing kits that have 6 slotted and 4 solid bearings. We know that both Glyco and Kolbenschmidt make these kits and we used them, exclusively. The 'extra' bearing goes into the #4 bearing cap. Under a condition that the balance of the bearings look good, we will replace a single slotted main bearing cap on the #4 and call it an 'upgrade'. We will sell the single slotted main, if you like.
As for oil pans being 'fixed', we get a very good and inexpensive brand oil pan and simply replace them. Repairing an oil pan usually involves welding and an old oil pan does not weld very well, as it has oil contamination. $75 is our minimum charge for 'striking an arc', and the pan is not worth it. Replace it.
Uhoh and I agree. Money well-spent is a Panzer Plate.
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
vtpsd, "...I don't think the factory work should be messed with unless there has been a failure...."
I understand that many of the TDI engines are good at 300k, but correctly timed replacement of rod/ main or piston rings can tremendously extend life-expectancy.
I would no more let my tires be ignored until they go flat than to allow an engine to fail before doing preventive maintenance. Looking is a great idea and that requires the removal of bearing caps. Literally, it's a few minutes and $30 parts for peace of mind.
Otherwise, I agree. Don't mess with what VW put together. We tell people all the time to NOT put in rod bearings at 150-200k miles. Just LOOK.
Just because 5 engines look great, it's the one problem one... that lost it's oil pan, for example... that scored the bearings. Not all usage and history, and therefore, not all maintenance requirements are equal.
I understand that many of the TDI engines are good at 300k, but correctly timed replacement of rod/ main or piston rings can tremendously extend life-expectancy.
I would no more let my tires be ignored until they go flat than to allow an engine to fail before doing preventive maintenance. Looking is a great idea and that requires the removal of bearing caps. Literally, it's a few minutes and $30 parts for peace of mind.
Otherwise, I agree. Don't mess with what VW put together. We tell people all the time to NOT put in rod bearings at 150-200k miles. Just LOOK.
Just because 5 engines look great, it's the one problem one... that lost it's oil pan, for example... that scored the bearings. Not all usage and history, and therefore, not all maintenance requirements are equal.
UhOh
Top Post Dawg
As always, an enormous wealth of info from Franko6!
Frank, with regards to replacing bearings, are you saying it's OK to only replace one (or the ones that seem to require replacing- as in the #4 main bearing)?
Frank, with regards to replacing bearings, are you saying it's OK to only replace one (or the ones that seem to require replacing- as in the #4 main bearing)?
Franko6
Vendor , w/Business number
UhOh,
That is exactly what we do. After an acceptable main bearing inspection, we replace the bottom #4 bearing with a radially slotted bearing. The entire and exact purpose is to create a 100% duty oiling of the #3 rod.
For those who think this is a terrible idea...It's not the factory bearing, It's not considering any wear-in, the sizing might be different from bearing-to-bearing... or any other supposed risk...
The journal bearing manufacturers we use are OEM producers. Even if they did not make the same bearing as were originally installed, journal bearings are manufactured to tolerances in the Millionths. .000001". Although we are, in a manner of speaking, reducing the load-carrying ability of the #4 main bearing, the advantage of eliminating the risk of a seized #3 rod outweighs the loss in total bearing support. And it's a 5-main engine with comparatively large bearing area.
We have never had an engine fail from exchanging the #4 bearing cap. On the other hand, for those who have had a rod snap, how many were #3 rods? To date, in our experience, ALL of them were #3 rods.
That is exactly what we do. After an acceptable main bearing inspection, we replace the bottom #4 bearing with a radially slotted bearing. The entire and exact purpose is to create a 100% duty oiling of the #3 rod.
For those who think this is a terrible idea...It's not the factory bearing, It's not considering any wear-in, the sizing might be different from bearing-to-bearing... or any other supposed risk...
The journal bearing manufacturers we use are OEM producers. Even if they did not make the same bearing as were originally installed, journal bearings are manufactured to tolerances in the Millionths. .000001". Although we are, in a manner of speaking, reducing the load-carrying ability of the #4 main bearing, the advantage of eliminating the risk of a seized #3 rod outweighs the loss in total bearing support. And it's a 5-main engine with comparatively large bearing area.
We have never had an engine fail from exchanging the #4 bearing cap. On the other hand, for those who have had a rod snap, how many were #3 rods? To date, in our experience, ALL of them were #3 rods.