Hard start and smoking after timing belt change

For two years I have lurked here. This is my first post.

I bought my 2002 Jetta 17 months ago. Timing belt had 60k on it, thermostat was leaking so the temp wouldn't get up. Drove it 15k, but got nervous and wanted the car to warm up this winter.

Based on reading here, I bought the idparts hi mileage kit, plus the cam gear and some g12 and thought about doing the job myself. Tools cost at 200 and time made me decide against.

We have an excellent shop that works on myLBZ Duramax, so I questioned them about the job. They said they had the tools, looked a bit different but they have always been very honest, a good independent shop so I went the easy route.

I picked up the car, it was a bit hard to start, and I got a lot of white smoke. The next morning, I had to crank for awhile to start, it cut off, and I had to start it 3 more times to get it to keep running. Once the weekend came I checked the glow plugs, the all read about 1.3 ohms. I kept driving hoping it would get better. It didn't so I took it back. Talked to the guy on the phone, he said the timing showed middle of the graph.

After it is started it restarts fine if started in less than an hour. Power is like before.

I don't want to make this shop mad because they have done so much good work in the past, not sure vw diesels are their prime. So I am faced with either buying the tools, or taking it somewhere else with hands and knees posture.

Car has been at the shop almost 2 weeks. Before, the car started in like one revolution of the crank.

Not sure what the problem is but it sounds like they are a tooth off on the pump.

I just want my car back.
Bill, car less in Blacksburg, VA

ASSUMING the belt was changed correctly and the mechanical side (cam and crank) are in-time, this is a 20 minute fix for anyone who has VCDS and the tools, although they may need a new vacuum pump seal (since you really DO need to replace it any time it comes off or you WILL get a small oil leak.)

Why the vacuum pump seal? Because if I was checking this for someone I'd ALSO check the mechanical timing and that requires removing the vacuum pump and valve cover. If that's not bang-on then the job was done wrong no matter what someone tells you.

Find someone with VCDS near you and have the pump timing checked at minimum. This should be pretty simple to run down; white smoke is unburned fuel which implies the pump is fairly far out of time (but not enough to prevent the start.) If that's all it is it's easy to fix.

BTW if the shop does NOT have VCDS (or the VAG tool, which is unlikely) they CANNOT know if the pump timing is "in the middle of the graph." You CAN do a mechanically-sound timing belt without it, but you CAN'T get the IP correct without it -- although you might get close enough (and will, a good percentage of the time) that no fine adjustment is necessary.

The last one I did was bang-on with no fine adjustment necessary, but you usually do wind up off just a bit -- that's why the slots are there in the IP sprocket so fine adjustment can be made.

What would they be checking the graph on if they don't have the computer tool?

I have a vag comm I got back in 2009 but haven't used since then for an Audi A4, is this the right tool?

What someone says and what they did are sometimes two different things.

Yes, the older tool is fine; it just needs to be able to get the timing graph.

You might have to download the latest soft ware if you haven't used it recently, but that only takes 5 minutes.
Wanna bet that timing is retarded?��

I'll second what Genesis says.

Car started fine, they worked on it, doesn't start fine anymore. Should be obvious even to them that they didn't do it right.

To me what would make a shop rate as excellent is not the work they've done that was not a problem it's how they handle an issue like this.

Sadly, unless something unrelated (to the TB work) decided to rear up, it sounds like this shop doesn't really have what it takes to do this job properly.

My car's timing has never been touched since I did its TB. Fired up instantly post install. It was the first time I'd ever done a job like this (first major TDI job). Tools + procedures is a near certain guarantee that the engine will fire up and be withing timing spec (when I finally got around to checking timing on my car, I didn't have VCDS when I did the TB job, it was about 3/4 graph- pretty much perfect; it's been starting perfectly since, now over 40k miles since the job). Second TB (duaghter's car) was also about the same results- fired up right away, though timing was at the top of the graph (I left it, but it later got adjusted back down).

Tools + procedures, even IF one is a total novice will produce good results. I don't recall hearing from any of the professionals around here having any problems with starting post TB install.

Another possibility is that moving the filter around to do the work opened up an air leak.

I'm no expert, but I can tell you this about that.
First you must align the 3 "marks".
The timing graph plots the IP and cam so you can fine tune.
If the 3 marks are off, I would guess the chart will still plot somewhere. If it's just a couple teeth, the motor will run, but not good.
Maybe the crank sensor would give a clue, I've no experience with this potential foul-up.

IMHO if it's not running right after the job then you need to verify ALL THREE of the timing locations (cam, crank and IP) are correct.

If the cam and crank are NOT aligned you may be ok in terms of damage, or you may not. The amount of slop before you're not is, if I remember correctly, only about 7 degrees -- which isn't much!

Any time something appears to be done wrong the only SANE thing to do is check ALL OF IT. This will require both the lock plate for the cam ("one" special tool) and a new seal ring for the vacuum pump (or it WILL leak!) but is otherwise not a big deal to check.

If it's JUST the IP that's off it's easily fixed. My problem with this sort of issue is that there's no excuse for it being wrong, and thus if it is I assume EVERYTHING is wrong until proved otherwise.

Huh, my vacuum pump has never leaked.
So the car ran good enough to drive home, but sounds like something is not right.
Have them verify the IP pin hole, crank and cam do physically line up. Then they can dial it in with the graph.
Any good mechanic can do this job, but some very experienced "pros" refuse to read and understand.

Twinkieflyer said:

What would they be checking the graph on if they don't have the computer tool?

I have a vag comm I got back in 2009 but haven't used since then for an Audi A4, is this the right tool?

Click to expand...

The Bentley manual has a picture of the graph and you only need the fuel temp and the timing number you find in block 000.
Not sure if a generic diagnostic scanner can read that block.

I do agree the white smoke sounds like retarded injection timing.

KLXD said:

Another possibility is that moving the filter around to do the work opened up an air leak.

Click to expand...

Yes, I'd look to check out this low-hanging-fruit first!

BobnOH said:

Huh, my vacuum pump has never leaked.
So the car ran good enough to drive home, but sounds like something is not right.
Have them verify the IP pin hole, crank and cam do physically line up. Then they can dial it in with the graph.
Any good mechanic can do this job, but some very experienced "pros" refuse to read and understand.

Click to expand...

Maybe we're talking two different leaks? I think that the concern is that by popping off the vacuum pump (to check cam timing) you need to replace that seal lest you end up with oil leaks (my wife's car is experiencing leaking- I'd have to check to see if the dealer [PO work] replaced that gasket]). Maybe you're thinking of vacuum leak? (which shouldn't be a concern unless one mishandles the vacuum pump and line)

I'd say the low hanging fruit is checking the timing.

Air leak possibility is giving the shop the benefit of the doubt about doing it right and looking for other causes.

KLXD said:

I'd say the low hanging fruit is checking the timing.

Air leak possibility is giving the shop the benefit of the doubt about doing it right and looking for other causes.

Click to expand...

"After it is started it restarts fine if started in less than an hour. Power is like before."

{OP's quote] Sounds a lot like an air incursion issue. Yes, timing can also be a source, but I'd think that if it were so out of spec to cause hard starts when "cold" and then be (perfectly?) "fine" if started less than an hour, well, that seems a bit less likely. I"m NOT saying, though, that timing should be checked- if it's checked then the OP should leave it as is, get a snapshot of it, and take it back to the shop to have them explain things. A loose fuel line clamp, while a bit sloppy, isn't really a case for condemnation of the shop (though, if they really were professionals they should have offered up a quick check); and here too the shop should be notified if they were sloppy.

OP, do you have a clear fuel line (segment) on your fuel line to the IP? If so, tell us what you're seeing after the car sites for over an hour (or however long it takes for it to start getting finicky about starting).

I have one clear tube and one not clear. I think, but I will check, that I saw a bubble in the clear line maybe 1/2 inch.

The car runs just fine within a minute after starting. I feel like I need to get moving and let the smoke signals dissipate.

I must admit I have not studied the fuel diagram to know which hose does what.

Sorry, but what's an OP? Me I assume, but what does it stand for?

Original poster.

The fitting on the belt side of the pump is the supply. Normal to see a bubble in it but if it were to be a lot bigger after sitting than immediately after cutoff it might be a cause for concern.

If air gets into the high pressure piston it can cause late timing because the air compresses allowing the pump piston to travel some before pressure builds enough to open the injector.

I still lean towards timing. Within an hour engine is still warm which will mask late timing. Also it would take a pretty bad leak to affect starting after only an hour and a leak that bad would make starting after sitting overnight really difficult.

Twinkieflyer said:

I have one clear tube and one not clear. I think, but I will check, that I saw a bubble in the clear line maybe 1/2 inch.

The car runs just fine within a minute after starting. I feel like I need to get moving and let the smoke signals dissipate.

I must admit I have not studied the fuel diagram to know which hose does what.

Sorry, but what's an OP? Me I assume, but what does it stand for?

Click to expand...

So, car runs fine after a minute of starting AND it runs fine after that and while driving? Smoke is whitish?

At this point the only real way forward is to have the fuel lines and timing checked. The shop really needs to be asked to check these things. The starting issue didn't exist prior to their work in which case they are responsible for rectifying it: it is certainly possible that there's a coincidental issue, but the probabilities of proximity say that it's due to something they did or did not do (correctly).

I had a starting issue on my car after installing a Nicktane filter kit: these use larger fuel filters and eliminate the sensitive Thermo-T, which is a potential source for air leaks. I'd done this very same operation on the wife's car w/o incident. Took me tightening the top fittings twice and replacing one band clamp with a screw clamp to finally resolve the hard starting issue (something that had never been an issue with my car). IF you have screw clamps you might look to see if they can be tightened a bit. Might end up being that, like with my car, the band clamp had finally weakened to the point where it could no longer do the job.

And replied, "OP" means "Original Poster" (in this case, you- Twinkieflyer).

csstevej said:

You might have to download the latest soft ware if you haven't used it recently, but that only takes 5 minutes.
Wanna bet that timing is retarded?��

Click to expand...

and

KLXD said:

I'd say the low hanging fruit is checking the timing.
Air leak possibility is giving the shop the benefit of the doubt about doing it right and looking for other causes.

Click to expand...

When the engine is still warm or at least not bone cold it starts up. When it's sat long enough to cool completely down it is hard to start usually means it's timing. Although, the other factor is an IP losing its prime. If fuel is still there then i'd go with timing especially since it started happening after the timing belt was changed out and the timing was not verified with VCDS.
It is the low hanging fruit.

jokila said:

When the engine is still warm or at least not bone cold it starts up.

Click to expand...

He says that it becomes difficult after about an hour of sitting. Unless a car is sitting outside in frigid temperatures (is that happening Virgina now?) I cannot see how it could get cooled down that much.

I'll admit that most air incursion issues tend to occur over a greater amount of time.

Although I'm not willing to trust the shop's word that timing "graphed" fine I'm struggling to think that they could be being deceptive here (seems that there's a history of trust established here, not just some one-time customer handling kind of event, even though it might be the fist time with this TDI). Fuel lines get disturbed during TB jobs, and it's one of those things that I think is more readily overlooked on a QA basis than say timing (maybe timing wasn't checked when fully warm?).

At any rate, this is, for us chair jockeys, a fun exercise in troubleshooting. Both timing and fuel connections SHOULD be inspected.

UhOh said:

He says that it becomes difficult after about an hour of sitting. Unless a car is sitting outside in frigid temperatures (is that happening Virgina now?) I cannot see how it could get cooled down that much.

I'll admit that most air incursion issues tend to occur over a greater amount of time.

Although I'm not willing to trust the shop's word that timing "graphed" fine I'm struggling to think that they could be being deceptive here (seems that there's a history of trust established here, not just some one-time customer handling kind of event, even though it might be the fist time with this TDI). Fuel lines get disturbed during TB jobs, and it's one of those things that I think is more readily overlooked on a QA basis than say timing (maybe timing wasn't checked when fully warm?).

At any rate, this is, for us chair jockeys, a fun exercise in troubleshooting. Both timing and fuel connections SHOULD be inspected.

Click to expand...

Maybe they are using a different scan tool. I have a snap on ethos pro as i do a lot of side work. I can do pump timing but it's not in a graph per say. You get a actual number value. High side value, low side value and target value. snap on still refers to this a graph but it's honestly not.

John-TDI said:

Maybe they are using a different scan tool. I have a snap on ethos pro as i do a lot of side work. I can do pump timing but it's not in a graph per say. You get a actual number value. High side value, low side value and target value. snap on still refers to this a graph but it's honestly not.

Click to expand...

Yeah, I am just figuring that this seems to be, to the OP, a respectable shop and I'm just not seeing them trying to BS him over this. His resistance to be a little more aggressive about having them clean up their work makes it a bit tougher: and I DO understand where the OP is coming from here- I don't like having a confrontational situation with folks I regularly do business with; but, one has to get on with getting an issue resolved (and sometimes it takes some creative diplomacy to get a business to become motivated to deal with an issue). Not saying that the timing will in fact be correct, just that I'm thinking that they probably did check it and it did look OK to them. Fuel lines, and as I noted -perhaps just decided to get wonky- could be something that they are sure they connected/tightened correctly, but if they're band clamps how can you really tell? As I mentioned, I had problems with one that I'd never had a problem with before. Had I sent my car out the door I would have had some doubts of it being a source of air leaks (never happened before). The fuel lines are old, they weren't replaced; and I'm figuring, neither were the clamps. TB gear WAS new/replaced, and doing so uses special tools and measuring devices.

I really don't want to look like I'm flogging here. I'm really only speaking out loud, about how I look at things vis a vis troubleshooting. No expert with VWs, but have troubleshot some very complex things (hardware+software; where things can get REALLY hazy).

The latest is the shop says it needs a battery. It is 4 years old but seemed fine, but all the cranking is leaving it low. I was hesitant to ok this, but unless I just want to pick it up, I probably don't have many ways to go.

I am looking for the vag com cable that I put away 7 years ago. I still have the software on my old laptop (Xp).

I think I am getting closer to having to do the timing myself. There seems to be another thread where someone faced this and a way to avoid pulling everything off. I hate to think about the time, but it is looking like it.

Having read but not looked closely at the car, my suspicion is that they didn't put the pin in the pump before they tensioned everything up. Of course, as a newbie and a noob I might be way out.

I appreciate all the help and thinking out load. It has really helped me in my thought process.

This really is a good shop, that probably got into something they didn't know. I once had an engine swap done there on a truck I bought with a bad engine and asked to have the clutch changed. They called me a couple days in and had me come over and asked me again, as there was a new clutch and pp in the truck the found when they got the engine out.

I wish there was an easier way out. With a day job and a farm with 43 angus, I was hoping to avoid this.

Thanks again, I promise to keep updating.
Bill

But there shouldn't have been a lot of cranking required in the first place to kill the battery!

Four years isn't that old to my way of thinking but it's up to you.

You can set the crank at TDC, remove the vacuum pump and look at the cam slot to see if it's very far off. You have VCDS to check the timing.

Four years is indeed pretty good service on a battery. Around here if you do better you did good. We have heat to contend with; where it snows you have that to contend with. If you are where you get neither you may get more service life from a battery... maybe.

In any event the "usual" timing belt job on a gasser doesn't have the valve timing nearly as critical (on a TDI you have ~7 degrees you can be off before you have a collision and it'll run like crap if you're off at all) and there's no IP of course. So the usual is mark the locations or lock the crank (with a screwdriver in the bellhousing) and mark the cam, take it off, replace it and the tensioner, put it back together. Done. With a TDI it's an entirely different game. You NEED to lock the cam (which means you need the lock plate) and you NEED to float the cam sprocket AND IP sprocket while tensioning the belt (which means you need the puller tool to pop the cam sprocket loose and a counter-hold tool both to loosen it and when you torque the bolt back up afterward -- if you try to use the lock plate for that you WILL break the tail of the camshaft.) If you don't HAVE a lock plate then the only way to do the job is to mark the locations and pray you're close enough. If you don't do it right, with the right tools, either the timing will be off at the cam, IP or both and the car will definitely not run as well as it should, and may run like crap. It's also possible and in fact rather likely you will preload the teeth on the belt which is a good way to turn a 100k belt and tensioner into a 20k or 50k one without any warning, destroying the head a few years later (but past any warranty the shop offers on their work.)

There is exactly one right way to do the install and tensioning on these cars and a lot of wrong ways. While they MAY have done it the right way and you have something else going on (e.g. air leak) it definitely bears checking because the cost of being wrong is a cylinder head or worse a couple of years from now, never mind the car not running right.

Genesis said it perfectly, if the TB is done correctly and before you check it with VCDS , it will fire off within a second if you followed the TB change procedure . Then fine tune it with VCDS. Most prefer the upper half of the timing graph.

^^^ Yup. If there is ANY doubt then the ONLY resolution is to verify, and to do so sooner rather than later.

Bill, I completely understand your situation: I've got animals as well, though not all are marketable. I don't have a lot of time to be messing with cars; I mitigated this by acquiring a spare car- reduces the sense of urgency, and now have a garage to work in (this was needed anyway, as my old "shop" was about as pathetic a shop as one could have, especially when one has lots to maintain!). You could talk to your mechanics and ask them to explain their exact procedures for the work on your car. If they are uncomfortable doing so then THAT is the alarm! Anyone here, all knowledgeable TDI folks would freely offer up how it's done (as you can see based on folks' input here).

steve, the ONLY time that you won't have an instant start is if you somehow managed to introduce air into the fuel system (fuel line/filter disturbed). I don't see it readily happening, but cannot say that is can be ruled out. BUT, that's for the initial start, subsequent starts should not be affected (unless fittings weren't tightened sufficiently).

Based on the OPs opening statement to this Thread, I do believe he has driven it enough to expel any air. However, it's possible they did something to cause a very small leak that's allowing air into the fueling system ............ but, I seriously doubt that to be the case.

Like everyone else that has responded, if the shop did not use VCDS, I'd doubt anything they told me.

The Cam and Crankshaft relationship is crucial with respect to possible engine damage. Since the engine will start, that relationship is apparently close if not spot on. Retarded Cam timing (too much... 7 degrees as mentioned) will allow Exhaust Valves to be hit by the pistons.

Not to beat a dead horse anymore, the Cam/Crank/IP hole relationship needs to be confirmed. If those are okay, especially the Cam/Crank marks, proceed to check the timing with VCDS and make the necessary adjustments.

As someone stated, it's very possible to hit the timing almost, if not perfect and no tweaking will be required. Last week I did a TB job on a 99 NB. It fired up immediately. When I checked the timing with VCDS, it was about 80% into the upper part of the graph........ a little more advanced than I like. But, I left there and told the guy I'd adjust in about 5k miles for free...