TDI Used Oil Lab Analyses Results & Discussions

DRamsey said:

My plan was to get rid of the "floaties" running around in the engine during the initial break in period. Based of the analysis, and the 190+ pages of analysis I read through here, I think it was prudent and I can't understand why anyone would leave the original oil in the engine for 10,000. At the end of the day, it's a personal decision and I chose to get the stuff out of circulation. I think I learned that I was right.

Click to expand...

You probably could have saved yourself a whole lot of time, oil and money just by reading one post.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=464230&postcount=2

Good luck Bro.

I guess my concern is the fuel content of the oil, and the fact that I was 1/2 - 1 quart low this oil change. Anything I should be looking at to fix possibly? I also do not know if the dealer used the correct Castrol as I just purchased the car from them. I did use Castrol again for this oil change and might swap out to the Mobil 1 ESP next time around. The car doesn't see high MPG like others do. I get around 40-42 on the highway, and my average tank is around 34 MPG. I also feel that the car does the whole DPF cleaning a lot too.

Crx,

There's no problem with the oil itself. However you have a severe fuel dilution issue that will only get worse in colder weather. I'd have the dealer check the function of your fuel system. You either have significant fuel injector deposits and/or an injector or injectors that leaks fuel after shutdown. All this fuel wash is causing abnormal piston, ring and cylinder wear as you can see - these wear rates are 2-3X what they should be for an engine with this many miles on it, with approx 7000 miles on the sample

Changing brands of oil won't address this problem. Even changing oil more frequently may do very little. The damage is being done as the raw fuel washes down the cylinder walls. Your frequent regen cycles are most likely a symptom of a mechanical malfunction that's generating lots of soot buildup in the DPF.

Are you using a fuel with a high percentage of biodiesel? If so I'd go back to straight #2 diesel until you get this solved....The high oil consumption is also being caused by the excessive fuel dilution. It will go away once you solve the underlying issue(s).

TS

No, I don't have biodiesel by me at all. I believe it's 40 cetane, and I use 8 ounces of Diesel Kleen each tank.

Would running a Vag-Com scan help determine issues with my injectors?

I'm guessing this wouldn't have anything to do with it? This would be for an external leak?
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/p...4&type=VEHICLE&typenum=1&cmpt_id=158&prod_id=

Crx,

A very interesting link. I'd certainly take the chance to have VW examine the whole fuel injection system and discuss the fuel issue with a VW mechanic.

TS

crxgator said:

I'm guessing this wouldn't have anything to do with it? This would be for an external leak?
http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/cars/p...4&type=VEHICLE&typenum=1&cmpt_id=158&prod_id=

Click to expand...

Yes, that's an external leak. If the fuel lines fail due to the conditions set in the recall, it would cause a leak in the fuel line between the fuel rail and the injector. There shouldn't be any way for this fuel to get into your oil.

I believe the most common explanation of fuel getting into the Oil of our TDI's is when you use a high % of biodiesel. During DPF regen, the biodiesel get's sprayed onto the cylinder walls because it does not vaporize like normal D2. This leads to a little bit slipping past the piston and into the oil.

TornadoRed, are you sure this is true?

TornadoRed said:

Your TDI engine was run at the assembly plant and then drained, so there was no "manufacture debris" in the engine when it was delivered to you.

Click to expand...

I have it from a pretty reliable source that this would actually be too expensive for the factory to do.

DRamsey said:

I have it from a pretty reliable source that this would actually be too expensive for the factory to do.

Click to expand...

Hmmm... I've read it both ways, but people whose opinions I respect are saying that Volkswagen does not run each engine at the engine assembly plant... that the first time they are run is after the vehicle is completely assembled. This means no oil change before delivery to the new owner.

Still, we have seen used-oil test results from lots of very new engines, most of them after either 5k or 10k miles, and there is no spectrographic signature of "manufacturing debris". The assembly rooms are clean, the parts are clean, so the completely assembled engines are clean.

^^^^^^

I've seen this in threads before, and is makes sense to me. Unless there is some evidence that the factory fill oil is dirty with manufacture / assembly debris, why change it? Today's factories are not the same as those of 50 years ago, and it stands to reason that processes and techniques have changed right along with them.
I'm not an engineer, but from the standpoint of engineering out all possible sources of manufacturing defects, it makes sense to assemble a completely clean engine, that way even wear or damage that may occur during a "break-in run" will not be an issue.

hotpocketdeath said:

Yes, that's an external leak. If the fuel lines fail due to the conditions set in the recall, it would cause a leak in the fuel line between the fuel rail and the injector. There shouldn't be any way for this fuel to get into your oil.

I believe the most common explanation of fuel getting into the Oil of our TDI's is when you use a high % of biodiesel. During DPF regen, the biodiesel get's sprayed onto the cylinder walls because it does not vaporize like normal D2. This leads to a little bit slipping past the piston and into the oil.

Click to expand...

Alright, thanks. I am not using biodiesel however. Also, I ran a Vag-com scan and didn't come up with any engine codes.

One weird thing is that after the oil change the engine feels better, less noise, and better gas mileage. I'll change it again at 7k miles and see if it's the same thing. I may also have sent a sample that wasn't as good as it should have been. I used the oil from the beginning of the oil change instead of the middle.

Crx,

I'm not surprised the engine sounds better running on fresh oil without all that fuel in it. I've sampled from the bottom of the pan before and results were normal. So I'm not sure that's really the key issue here unless you allowed things to potentially settle for an extended time before pulling the sample. You can always invest $25.00 and get an oil sampling pump. This will allow you to draw a sample from the mid level of the sump out of the dipstick tube.

I normally sample using a Fumoto drain valve. I let about 1/2 quart of oil drain out before taking the sample and I draw the sample within five minutes after shutdown. When you're representing five qts of oil with a four ounce sample you need to make sure the oil is mixed up and stuff hasn't settled out.

TS

Hello, first UOA at 100k miles. 2002 Golf TDI, run Biodiesel at high blends routinely since 74k when I bought it (see my Fuelly for details). Mobil 1 TDT 5W/40. Any feedback?

SHF,

Looks like a normal ALH UOA

Bob, thank you sir! Also, if you have any feedback, here is my new to me Jeep CRD. I had the PO pull some oil at 68k when he changed the oil (5-6k on the oil, but he wasn't certain). Shell Rotella T6 5W/40 I also don't know whether he sampled the oil properly, but it is better than nothing. Let me know what you think, especially about the aluminum number:

I don't know CRDs well enough to know.

SFH,

The Al looks a bit elevated. However that may be characteristic of this engine. Silicon is also high, so I'd check the air filter and intake tract for small leaks. The oil is in fine shape and you could potentially run longer once you assure air filtration is good.

TS

TooSlick said:

SFH,

The Al looks a bit elevated. However that may be characteristic of this engine. Silicon is also high, so I'd check the air filter and intake tract for small leaks. The oil is in fine shape and you could potentially run longer once you assure air filtration is good.

TS

Click to expand...

Tooslick, you referring to the CRD right? I did change out the air filter and top of the air box both of which were in bad shape.

I'm trying to compare a few different oils in my TDI to decide which to stick with. I already did a UOA on the Amsoil, now I'm running Liqui-Moly. The next oil I will be checking is Pentosyn.

The Liqui-Moly is at about 5k miles now. Would it be useful to do a UOA now, or should I wait until 10k on the oil for that? My main concern is with cam wear on my PD.

SFH,

Yes the Jeep. The TDI analysis results are excellent.

TS

SFHGolfTDI said:

Tooslick, you referring to the CRD right? I did change out the air filter and top of the air box both of which were in bad shape.

Click to expand...

Lostjeeps.com CRD forum is where you need to be. Read Sam's Noob guide before you log m(any) miles. If the PO was not a forum member, there are things you need to take care of.

New here. I want to post my UOA as a picture or pdf, but don't have a way of attaching it. Am I missing something?
Any help appreciated

Blue_Hen_TDI said:

The spike in aluminum is bothersome on my latest UOA (2012 Passat). Any suggestions? The engine has seen Castrol LL03 since new.

Click to expand...

Blue Hen did you ever get another sample done yet or figure out what was happening with the Aluminum? The reason I ask is that a couple people have reported high levels of aluminum in their Passat's and mine just came back fairly high at the 10k service(which was the second oil change) The first service at 5,000 miles it was very normal and about 74 on the second oil change. The funny thing is my Potassium actually went down so the EGR theory might not explain it. I was just wondering if anybody has seen these Aluminum spikes and then see them level back off.

mountain-valleymotors said:

Blue Hen did you ever get another sample done yet or figure out what was happening with the Aluminum? The reason I ask is that a couple people have reported high levels of aluminum in their Passat's and mine just came back fairly high at the 10k service(which was the second oil change) The first service at 5,000 miles it was very normal and about 74 on the second oil change. The funny thing is my Potassium actually went down so the EGR theory might not explain it. I was just wondering if anybody has seen these Aluminum spikes and then see them level back off.

Click to expand...

Your timing is impeccable. I just got my 40K UOA back today, and it's not good. See next post.

My 40K UOA just arrived and I am increasingly concerned about wear metals trending in the wrong direction, particularly aluminum, iron, and chromium. Any ideas are appreciated.

Only Castrol LL03 has been used since new and in this sample. I have not had any profuse loss of coolant, though I did add coolant for the first time about a month ago when the outside temps dropped and the low coolant light came on. It took two cups to take it to the max line and it has stayed there. Wouldn't a coolant leak show up as Sodium on a UOA anyway? I checked BITOG and VW G12 coolant is loaded with sodium. I'm thinking I may have a legit ring/piston issue developing.

I anticipated another poor UOA, so I switched oil to Pennzoil Ultra Euro-L 5w30 (also VW 507 approved) at the 40K change to see if the car likes it better. I think I'm also going to do a 5K OCI this time. I need to develop a plan of action before I hit the end of the 60K powertrain warranty. I don't know what a VW dealer would feel obligated to do based only on UOA. I really don't want to have to trade the car. I was hoping it would be a keeper.

All my other metals were improved, just the aluminum was higher. I did switch to Pentosin Oil at 5,000 but now it is back with the Castrol oil that the dealer put in at the 10k service.

Yours doesn't look good at all. Keep us posted.

Blue Hen,

I concur with your diagnosis. I think you have a piston ring that's stuck in its groove or maybe even cracked. This is causing the affected piston to scrape the cylinder wall. The Al is probably scuffing wear from the skirt of this piston.

It's hard to tell what to make of the trace of potassium, but it may be unrelated to the abnormal wear. Typically if you had a cylinder head gasket issue you'd see elevated silicone from the degraded gasket.

I'd bring this to the attention of the dealer and get it documented. I don't see how this problem corrects itself. It looks to be trending the other way....

TS

TS- Too early for piston doom and gloom. It is very rare for a piston problem to go without operational symptoms. Al can come from many sources, even more with these hp and lp egr's, dpf's etc. Can come from egr cooler, charge air cooler, turbo cold side, and what is the dpf substrate made of??

Agreed, fwd to dealer as a yellow flag for warrantee purposes.

BH- how are you drawing samples? Don't catch mid-stream sump drain flow, suck it out through dipstick hole. Drain flow captures some sediment from bottom of pan.

Ski in NC said:

BH- how are you drawing samples? Don't catch mid-stream sump drain flow, suck it out through dipstick hole. Drain flow captures some sediment from bottom of pan.

Click to expand...

I have caught all four samples shown from below the pan. I pull the plug, wait three or four seconds, then stick the sample container in the stream. I do have a hand pump, so I'll try through the dipstick next time. In fact, I'd prefer not to change oil at the 5K interval if the UOA shows significant improvement. Drawing the sample upward would allow that.

On a side note, the only possibly odd symptom I've noticed with the car is that when it is still cold, it will sometimes (for lack of a better word) buck slightly in the second to third or third to fourth gear shift of the DSG. This is only on the very first acceleration of the day. I do not just turn the key and go. I usually idle for a few seconds to let the oil circulate and the water temp get up to 70F or so.

Thanks for the feedback so far.

Ski in NC said:

TS- Too early for piston doom and gloom. It is very rare for a piston problem to go without operational symptoms. Al can come from many sources, even more with these hp and lp egr's, dpf's etc. Can come from egr cooler, charge air cooler, turbo cold side, and what is the dpf substrate made of??

Agreed, fwd to dealer as a yellow flag for warrantee purposes.

BH- how are you drawing samples? Don't catch mid-stream sump drain flow, suck it out through dipstick hole. Drain flow captures some sediment from bottom of pan.

Click to expand...

There is no way that anything can get from the DPF into the engine oil.

mountain-valleymotors said:

There is no way that anything can get from the DPF into the engine oil.

Click to expand...

I think lp egr flow is tapped off downstream of dpf, that gets ingested into engine.