2012 VW Golf TDI - Bad DPF declined by VW

I have a small battle on my hands between VW of America and the local dealer (Folsom Lake VW) after it has been determined that CEL & code P2002 that the DPF IS bad. Soot in the tailpipe and build up in the DPF filter that the DPF/catalytic converter assembly need to be replaced on my 2012 VW Golf TDI The dealer and VW of America is refusing to help after their Master Tech noted that my car had a replacement K&N Filter element in the factory airbox. Nobody at the dealer has ever made mention in the past that this could potentially void the warranty.

The backstory on the car. 2012 Golf TDI, 91,XXX miles, and had the "fix" done appx 8K ago. I've done all of the maintanence, changed the oil every 5K, and the car has never had an issue. I love the car still despite it not feeling the as good as it did before the fix and loss of MPG.

I know that there is an extended warranty on the exhaust and emission system on TDI vehicles that had undergone the "fix"

Can anyone offer up any suggestions? I do live in California so doing a DPF delete and so it's not a feasible option. The dealer wants appx 2700.00 to perform the repair.

Any advice is appreciated and will try to upload an image of the service paperwork.

Mods, if I posted this in the wrong area, please notify me and move thread.

Should the dealer have done an inspection of your car to tell you, in advance, that your K&N filter would void a warranty for a future problem? As long as you are paying them money, all is cool. It’s when you want to make a warranty claim that they start looking for disqualifying evidence. (This, by the way, is what I keep telling the dieselgate ECU tuners.)

There is a lot of wisdom on this website explaining why using a K&N filter is a bad idea. Why did you put one in?

I would take this up with K&N. They claim that this filter will not void your warranty and that they will help you fight it. Please follow up to let us know how this plays out for you. K&N filters get you insta-flamed on this forum, but it still sounds like a BS reason to void your warranty to me. I know their filters aren't popular here, but I'll be curious to see if they stand by it "100%" and get this fixed for you.

https://www.knfilters.com/filtercharger.htm

K&N Consumer Protection

The K&N Consumer Protection Plan goes a step further than the K&N Million Mile Limited Warranty. At times, the performance aftermarket has been plagued by automotive manufacturers and auto dealers that may attempt to discourage you from modifying your vehicle. They would prefer that you buy OE parts and not customize your car or truck and have even voided their own manufacturer's warranty due to vehicle modifications. K&N and the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act protect consumers from such denied warranty claims. When you buy a K&N OE replacement filter or air intake system you can be confident your vehicle's warranty will remain in effect. If you encounter a dealership that wants to void your warranty because of one of our products, K&N will resolve the issue so you won't have to. We believe K&N makes The World's Best Air Filter and we stand behind that claim 100 percent.

They won't do anything for you. Because they will claim it had nothing to do with the failure. Which would be correct. I still think they are a joke anyway, but if VoA is going to void your warranty claim, not much you can do. Get a lawyer I guess. But that will likely cost more than the repairs.

Thanks for the feedback, and I am all ears. I have started a claim with K&N Filters and have been copying them and the regional VW case manager with several emails.

The car has been to this particular dealer before and not once has the service advisor pulled me to the side and said anything about it voiding the warranty if problems arise in the future.

I didn't know that K&N Filters got a bad rap around here, the car is stock with the excepion of a Bilstein Pro Kit and an AWE Tuning Touring cat back dual exhaust.

Maybe I'm learning a tough lesson here. My tenth VW and second Golf TDI and must say this is the worst I've ever experienced. If VW would cover it, then I'd keep the car and hand it off to my son. At 2,700.00 as much of a diehard VW guy that I may be there is no love for this car at that point.

I think I can still exercise the buyback option after they've performed the "fix", correct or no?

No. If they have done the fix you are no longer eligible for the buyback. If you do not yet have the paperwork in for the buyback you are also not eligible for it at this point.

flargabarg said:

No. If they have done the fix you are no longer eligible for the buyback. If you do not yet have the paperwork in for the buyback you are also not eligible for it at this point.

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Thank you! I can get an oem DPF at cost, or get one from a local dismantler that would sell one on the hush.

Looks like I will have to repair it on my own unless K&N or VW steps up.

Search here as there is a procedure you must go through IIRC when replacing the dpf. I don't think it is just a bolt up and go option.

Since you’re in California, you may want to reach out to CARB to make them aware of this incident.

How are they indicating the air filter was related to the DPF failure?

I would act calmly and ask for them to explain the required specifications the air filter must meet.

This is a response from the VW case manager:

The use of aftermarket air filters is not supported as the system was designed and calibrated to work with factory air filters. Use of aftermarket air filters such as cotton bed steel mesh or cone style, can cause the MAF sensor to not read accurately, affecting vehicle performance and critical monitoring functions for the diesel particulate filter. At this point it has been determined the failure is due to your aftermarket air filter and repairs would not be covered under warranty.

Thanks for the suggestions and discussion on this.

Looks like you are in for a fight if you want to pursue this. This is something that has been discussed here a lot. Oil contaminating the MAF. They do have a point in what they claim. Have you been doing the washing and re oiling or has the dealer? Do you or them have MAF readings to back up your story? I would imagine it will cost you more to pursue it than the repair. This will also probably follow for the life of your car. VW is going to be on the hook for a long time on warranty issues post dieselgate and I have argued that they may get picky on stuff like this in order to reduce warranty repair costs. If you value the warranty use only OEM parts and don't modify anything.

It has always been puzzling to me why anyone would bother to use these air filters in the first place, as they do NOTHING positive, and you cannot force feed a tiny little turbocharger by installing one anyway.

However, given the all-too-common issue of the DPF cracking (Volkswagen has a TSB about this, nothing new), and the fact that there is pretty much zero chances of an aftermarket air filter causing this*, I don't know what to say. Besides, no idea why the dealer would really care one way or the other, Volkswagen is the one footing the bill, and it isn't likely they are requesting the old air filter from the car. That is just dumb.

*now, increased cylinder bore wear, turbine blade wear, and yes MAF values being off as well as outright failure, can and does happen with these subpar air filters. It has been proven in labs outside those of K&N, but the marketing folks are still making money. So, I'd say let K&N fight for you... I still think they'll do nothing.

NorCalTDI79 said:

The car has been to this particular dealer before and not once has the service advisor pulled me to the side and said anything about it voiding the warranty if problems arise in the future.

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Since you have repeated this argument, I’ll state again: they have no responsibility, and you have probably not given them enough incentive, to troubleshoot your vehicle for future warranty issues. That is, on the other hand, what a forum like this does best, serve as a resource for owners to educate themselves in order to protect and advocate for ourselves. The buyer must protect himself/herself. The dealer will not protect us. Corporate will not protect us. They would like our repeat business, of course, but they don’t do what we want them to do fairly often, I have learned. Our standard of loyalty from them and their standard of loyalty from us do not overlap enough in the real world.

Case in point: the 2.0 L gasser oil consumption issues. VW and Audi are still comping engine rebuilds for owners who have demonstrated perfect loyalty (dealer servicing, multiple cars from the company). Anything less than this level of loyalty, you are going to be told to pound sand.

oilhammer said:

It has always been puzzling to me why anyone would bother to use these air filters in the first place, as they do NOTHING positive, and you cannot force feed a tiny little turbocharger by installing one anyway.

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I think there are two possibilities. First is the possibility of saving literally dozens of dollars over the life of the car. The other is that people really enjoy being able to feel the success of doing something to make a thing they own better. It's part of the pride of ownership.

"dozens"... I see what you did there....

Let me tell ya, if replacing a $15 air filter every 60k miles puts anyone in the poor house, a Volkswagen is NOT the right car to own.

KITEWAGON said:

I would take this up with K&N. [...] "K&N and the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act protect consumers from such denied warranty claims. When you buy a K&N OE replacement filter or air intake system you can be confident your vehicle's warranty will remain in effect. If you encounter a dealership that wants to void your warranty because of one of our products, K&N will resolve the issue so you won't have to.

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NorCalTDI79, you should make sure you hold K&N's feet to the fire on this, and let them know that you will be following up with the Attorney General's office should it prove that you were deceived by their advertising claims.
You should probably also approach you conversations with VWoA couched in the fact that the warranty is to be resolved in favor of you the consumer (assuming that you did have the fix done on your car) and that their implication that you have to use their part to meet a warranty condition is in violation of federal law.

(c) Prohibition on conditions for written or implied warranty; waiver by CommissionNo warrantor of a consumer product may condition his written or implied warranty of such product on the consumer’s using, in connection with such product, any article or service (other than article or service provided without charge under the terms of the warranty) which is identified by brand, trade, or corporate name; except that the prohibition of this subsection may be waived by the Commission if—
(1) the warrantor satisfies the Commission that the warranted product will function properly only if the article or service so identified is used in connection with the warranted product, and
(2) the Commission finds that such a waiver is in the public interest. The Commission shall identify in the Federal Register, and permit public comment on, all applications for waiver of the prohibition of this subsection, and shall publish in the Federal Register its disposition of any such application, including the reasons therefor.

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There is no doubt that the cards will be stacked against you, but there is equally no doubt that it is in your own best interest to make sure that you are not left holding the bag.
... and then you can start using a real filter again

Dannyboy said:

Depending on what type of K&N he has, that's a double edged sword. He has to have CARB approve the modification even though it's rock filter....er I mean air filter
Probably land him in deep water, I know cali regs have come down hard on modification of any type. Also been a TDI after the scandal the chances of it being approved are slim to none

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OP mentioned a drop in filter with the stock air box. K&N states these filters are emissions legal. It certainly can't hurt to report this incident to CARB and the EPA.

The EPA and CARB approved emissions remedy for the Gen 1 2.0L requires VW to fulfill several requirements.

drsven said:

OP mentioned a drop in filter with the stock air box. K&N states these filters are emissions legal. It certainly can't hurt to report this incident to CARB and the EPA.

The EPA and CARB approved emissions remedy for the Gen 1 2.0L requires VW to fulfill several requirements.

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Thank you for the responses. This is a regular drop in K&N filter in the factory air box assembly that I have.

Here's today's response from the case manager at VW of America after I sent her a copy of the Magnuson & Moss Warranty Act and mentioned going to CARB with this.

"I am sorry that you are disappointed in the outcome.

The position of Volkswagen would not change. The use of aftermarket air filters is not supported as the system was designed and calibrated to work with factory air filters. Use of aftermarket air filters such as cotton bed steel mesh or cone style, can cause the MAF sensor to not read accurately, affecting vehicle performance and critical monitoring functions for the diesel particulate filter. At this point it has been determined the failure is due to your aftermarket air filter and repairs would not be covered under warranty.

You are welcome to seek resources outside of Volkswagen as you see fit, but it was determined that the failure is due to outside influence"

I have seen several cases on these message boards where the DPF filter failed on bone stock vehicles. So them telling me that the system failed because of the K&N filter is absolute rubbish.

Granted it is my own fault for putting in the K&N Filter and I take responsibility for that.

So pursue it with K&N . . . VW has given you written evidence that they blame K&N for not only tne warranty denial, but also the failure. If nothing else,getting the two of them to have a run at each other should prove entertaining, and it does seem that you have, in writing, all you need to pursue a claim with K&N . . .

oilhammer said:

However, given the all-too-common issue of the DPF cracking (Volkswagen has a TSB about this, nothing new), and the fact that there is pretty much zero chances of an aftermarket air filter causing this*, I don't know what to say. Besides, no idea why the dealer would really care one way or the other, Volkswagen is the one footing the bill, and it isn't likely they are requesting the old air filter from the car.

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This is a good take. I'd say goodbye to that dealer if you have any other options . They clearly aren't looking out for you. I think this is just BS treatment from the dealer. They should be taking care of their customer and getting paid by VWOA for their trouble.

One other avenue that seems reasonable to pursue would be the class council. The "fix" was installed only 8k ago. How do we know that the extra stress of all those regens didn't kill it the DPF (I'm kidding here, but my reasoning is just as sound as VW dismissing you over a non-oem air filter). The purpose of that nice extended emissions warranty was to protect the consumers from whatever extra hardships the systems experienced as a result of VW's fix. I think its total BS and they are grasping at straws here to deny your warranty. Its not like you had some big aftermarket air intake installed.

I am really curious to see what K&N's take on this issue is as well.

Rough story here.

One thing that is throwing me is the code dealer gave. Usually a cracked DPF will throw a P0401 for low EGR flow. P2002 is of inefficient DPF, it may be just a bad sensor, read up.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=487141

looks like another one had P2002 and a K&N filter/intake as well, and he wen't all lawyer and got it replaced.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5415617&postcount=5

This wouldn't be the first time a dealer misdiagnosed an issue. Maybe there are other codes stored as well who knows. I guess you are seeing soot on the exhaust so maybe it is a cracked DPF.

As for the OP, you mentioned you performed all the oil changes and the car is now at 90K, do you happen to know what oil you were using for these Oil changes? Was it 507 spec?


Worse case an independent shop should be able to swap that DPF way cheaper than that dealer is quoting.

KITEWAGON said:

This is a good take. I'd say goodbye to that dealer if you have any other options . They clearly aren't looking out for you. I think this is just BS treatment from the dealer. They should be taking care of their customer and getting paid by VWOA for their trouble.

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The explanation is that OP, by his own admission, almost never darkened the dealer’s door, except when he was getting something for free. Did he even buy the vehicle from them? So, no mystery that the dealer service department would rather do oil changes and sell tires to other customers at a huge markup, than get a fixed amount to do this work for him. We’re in Northern California, right? Dealer probably has plenty to fill its service bays.

Again: it’s not the dealer’s job to jump to do favors for mediocre customers. All that said, I think OP would prevail ultimately in a legal fight to get VW to pay for this work.

Mythdoc said:

I think OP would prevail ultimately in a legal fight to get VW to pay for this work.

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Eventually, maybe. Depends on how long VW wants to fight this and the OP's desire to keep pursuing it. It could take some time and money and lawyers to get something done.

drsven said:

OP mentioned a drop in filter with the stock air box. K&N states these filters are emissions legal. It certainly can't hurt to report this incident to CARB and the EPA.

The EPA and CARB approved emissions remedy for the Gen 1 2.0L requires VW to fulfill several requirements.

Click to expand...

740GLE said:

Rough story here.

One thing that is throwing me is the code dealer gave. Usually a cracked DPF will throw a P0401 for low EGR flow. P2002 is of inefficient DPF, it may be just a bad sensor, read up.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=487141

looks like another one had P2002 and a K&N filter/intake as well, and he wen't all lawyer and got it replaced.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5415617&postcount=5

This wouldn't be the first time a dealer misdiagnosed an issue. Maybe there are other codes stored as well who knows. I guess you are seeing soot on the exhaust so maybe it is a cracked DPF.

As for the OP, you mentioned you performed all the oil changes and the car is now at 90K, do you happen to know what oil you were using for these Oil changes? Was it 507 spec?


Worse case an independent shop should be able to swap that DPF way cheaper than that dealer is quoting.

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Always changed the oil between 5-6k religiously with Total or Liqui Moly 507 spec motor oil. Also used Opti Lube diesel additive every fill up. All fluids flushed. Coolant, brake, etc, ahead of dealers recommendations and they have this one file at Folsom Lake VW. This dealer is short of anything impressive.

Here are the Techs notes, from the diagnosis:

-checked and found engine light on
-ran GFF checked faults
-P2002 particulate trap bank 1 efficiency below threshold
-checked soot level of DPF, 91ml ok
-checked and found soot in tailpipe,
-removed EGR filter and found soot
-performed visual inspection of exhaust, intake and charge pipes; no leaks found
-performed EGR flow test and found system ok
-did find aftermarket engine air filter (K&N)
-vw declined repairs at this time.

Car is worth appx. 11k on kbb. This one is fully loaded, 6MT, Nav, keyless start, 18in rims, bi-xenon lights, etc

Thanks!

drsven said:

OP mentioned a drop in filter with the stock air box. K&N states these filters are emissions legal. It certainly can't hurt to report this incident to CARB and the EPA.

The EPA and CARB approved emissions remedy for the Gen 1 2.0L requires VW to fulfill several requirements.

Click to expand...

740GLE said:

Rough story here.

One thing that is throwing me is the code dealer gave. Usually a cracked DPF will throw a P0401 for low EGR flow. P2002 is of inefficient DPF, it may be just a bad sensor, read up.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=487141

looks like another one had P2002 and a K&N filter/intake as well, and he wen't all lawyer and got it replaced.

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showpost.php?p=5415617&postcount=5

This wouldn't be the first time a dealer misdiagnosed an issue. Maybe there are other codes stored as well who knows. I guess you are seeing soot on the exhaust so maybe it is a cracked DPF.

As for the OP, you mentioned you performed all the oil changes and the car is now at 90K, do you happen to know what oil you were using for these Oil changes? Was it 507 spec?


Worse case an independent shop should be able to swap that DPF way cheaper than that dealer is quoting.

Click to expand...

Always changes the oil between 5-6k religiusly with Total or Liqui Moly 507 spoc motor oil. Also used Opti Lube diesel additive every fill up. All fluids flushed. Coolant, brake, etc, ahead of dealers recommendations and they have this one file at Folsom Lake VW.

Here are the Techs notes, from the diagnosis:

-checked and found engine light on
-ran GFF checked faults
-P2002 particulate trap bank 1 efficiency below threshold
-checked soot level of DPF, 91ml ok
-checked and found soot in tailpipe,
-removed EGR filter and found soot
-performed visual inspection of exhaust, intake and charge pipes; no leaks found
-performed EGR flow test and found system ok
-did find aftermarket engine air filter (K&N)
-vw declined repairs at this time.

Car is worth appx. 11k on kbb. This one is fully loaded, 6MT, Nav, keyless start, 18in rims, bi-xenon lights, etc

Thanks!

Another response from the case manager at VW.


I hope you’re having a great day.

Given your last email, I wanted to offer further clarification. I am under the impression that you feel your warranty has been voided and that is not the case.

You still have factory warranty extensions on your Golf TDI that cover manufacturer's shortcomings in materials or workmanship. However, the warranty would not cover the failure of a component due to outside influence.

As previously stated, The use of aftermarket air filters is not supported as the system was designed and calibrated to work with factory air filters. Use of aftermarket air filters, such as cotton bed steel mesh or cone style, can cause the MAF sensor to not read accurately, affecting vehicle performance and critical monitoring functions for the diesel particulate filter. Since your aftermarket air filter is the cause of your diesel particulate filter failure, warranty coverage would not be applicable to the replacement of your diesel particulate filter. This has nothing against the quality of the air filter used, nor the brand. It is caused because the system was designed and calibrated to work with factory air filters.

To find information on your TDI extended warranty, you can go to www.vwcourtsettlement.com. From there you will select “2.0L Vehicle” option and scroll down to “Court Documents, Forms & Notices” . The next steps would be to click “Approved Emissions Modifications” and choose the appropriate notice for your Generation 1 Golf TDI. There is also two additional extended warranties; one for the Diesel High Pressure Fuel Pump, valid until 4/13/2022 or 120,000 miles whichever occurs first, and the other is for the Exhaust Flap Warranty which is also valid until 4/13/2022 or 120,000 miles whichever occurs first.

Thank you for your time.


Sincerely,


Cassandra B

Region Case Manager

Funny part is that K&N Engineering is located less than 5 miles away from the new CARB HQ site under construction in Riverside.

the P2002 fault relates to the dynamic exhaust temperature behavior. More precisely, it relates to the dynamic temperature behavior before and after the DPF.

Supposedly the dynamic temperature drop or temperature change based on pressure and so forth (delta T) should follow the internal modeling within a tolerance band. (1st order lowpass PT1 filter characteristics for the geeks) For example if the transient delta t is lower than expected based on a number of things, supposedly that indicates a dpf delete pipe or you knocked out the contents of the filter so it's an "empty pipe". If the correlation with transient delta T is way way too low, then that indicates a failed sensor ("implausible" sensor), which sets a different fault.

P2002 is the "low correlation for delta T but not low enough so that we know for sure it's a bad sensor" fault.

So it could indicate an exhaust temp sensor (or pressure sensor) that is "kinda bad" but not completely failed. This is usually what it is. Sensor "going bad" but not quite "failed" yet.

However, the calculation depends on the internal airflow model to tell it What the dynamic delta T should be. One of the inputs to this model is.... wait for it.... the MAF of course.

So yes, the K&N could have caused the fault.

BUT and this is a BIG BUT (lol) the DPF likely HAS NOT FAILED

Replace the maf and or pressure/ temperature sensors, you will be fine. A multimeter and or logging could tell you where it hurts

edit: also check for boost leaks, very common to have a leaking o-ring in a boost hose in those cars

If the DPF isn't cracked what would explain the soot on the tail pipe and soot in the EGR filter, dealer FUD?

Maybe a P0401 is around the corner.