Motor Bites the Dust with less than 120,000 miles

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
At least that's what it's looking like right now. Here's what happened. A couple days before Thanksgiving I'd noticed my motor had started to stumble from time to time. It would do it both under load and at idle, just not very often. Then, the day before Thanksgiving I was leaving work to go to lunch and my TDI started like normal, except it puffed out a little smoke (it does that from time to time so I didn't think much of it). I got maybe 100 feet before the motor straight up died. When I went to crank it again it seemed like it wasn't making any compression because the starter didn't seem like it had anything to work against. After taking it to my normal shop with no help I took it to the stealership where they found my compression was 3/4 what it was supposed to be on cylinders 1-3 and #4 was at less than a 1/4 of what it was supposed to be. Their guess is a bent valve or a cracked piston crown.:( On top of that, they said the timing was dead on and the timing belt was in perfect shape.

So here's the deal. I replaced the timing belt only 26,000 miles ago, my oil and filter changes were all up to date. I've been using B20 biodiesel on the regular from a reliable source for several months. So, what could've caused this? I'll update when I find out the specifics on the problem.
 

GoFaster

Moderator at Large
Joined
Jun 16, 1999
Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
TDI
2006 Jetta TDI
A cracked piston is unlikely to occur on all four cylinders. Bent valves could quite possibly happen on all four cylinders. General wear will usually affect all cylinders.

In the ideal troubleshooting world, the next step is a "leakdown test" to identify where the leakage is going. That will indicate whether you need a top-end rebuild (head, valves) or a bottom-end rebuild (rings, pistons). If the bottom end is gone, it may be less expensive to get another engine.
 

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Hi,
Your motor is probably fine.

You said "When I went to crank it again it seemed like it wasn't making any compression because the starter didn't seem like it had anything to work against."

This often happens when your egr/shutoff valve sticks shut to the sticky crud inside the intake - motor can't breath. After it sits awhile it will finally release and start fine. You can move the shutoff lever on the side of the egr valve, it's a black lever on the back side of the intake.

Caution with misdiagnosis and dealers. Rarely do the pistons/rings have problems, they are spray cooled from beneath. Biggest worry is the cam followers break at 300k miles and drop a valve.
Jeff
 

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Hi,
Your motor is probably fine.

You said "When I went to crank it again it seemed like it wasn't making any compression because the starter didn't seem like it had anything to work against."

This often happens when your egr/shutoff valve sticks shut to the sticky crud inside the intake - motor can't breath. After it sits awhile it will finally release and start fine. You can move the shutoff lever on the side of the egr valve, it's a black lever on the back side of the intake.

Caution with misdiagnosis and dealers. Rarely do the pistons/rings have problems, they are spray cooled from beneath. Biggest worry is the cam followers break at 300k miles and drop a valve.
Jeff
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
That sounds like a pretty good explanation and that could be a probable source, but I don't think it explains the really low compression on the #4 cylinder. I'll call the dealer and ask them about that anyways just to be sure. Right now I'm still fearing the worst, though. Thanks for the input, guys. I'll keep you posted.
 

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Hi,
Your motor is probably fine.

You said "When I went to crank it again it seemed like it wasn't making any compression because the starter didn't seem like it had anything to work against."

This often happens when your egr/shutoff valve sticks shut to the sticky crud inside the intake - motor can't breath - sounds like it's lost compression and freewheeling. After it sits awhile it will finally release and start fine. You can move the shutoff lever on the side of the egr valve, it's a black lever on the back side of the intake.

Caution run away from dealers and misdiagnosis. Rarely do the pistons/rings have problems, they are spray cooled from beneath. Biggest worry is the cam followers break at 300k miles and drop a valve.
Jeff
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
UPDATE:

OK, talked to the dealer and the bottom end so far looks fine. They did find a significant amount of loose carbon deposits in the intake runners in the head. From this, it appears that loose carbon build-up from my intake manifold got between the valves and the valve seats preventing them from sealing properly. So, if I'm lucky the deposits just need to be cleaned out. If I'm not I'll need to replace any bent/damaged valves or maybe even the entire head. My head is now at a machine shop being inspected to find out if this is the case.

Learn from me, make sure you inspect your intake manifold regularly. If cleaning is neccesary remove your intake manifold to get everything properly cleaned out of it instead of trying to clean it while it's still bolted to the car. I did that about 20,000 miles/5 months ago and it looks like I'm paying for it now to the tune of at least a grand.
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
UPDATE (once again):

OK, I got my TDI back last Thursday and the guy at the dealer noted that it was taking the car a little longer than normal to start. I dismissed this since my car generally takes a second or two longer to crank than a regular gasoline car so I figured the guy pulling my car around was just not used to TDI's. Besides, it sounded like it was running normally to me when they pulled it around the curb.

The next day I start my car to drive to the airport to fly out for Christmas and it took about a minute and a half of trying to get it to start. By the time it finally turned over it was sputtering and stumbling really badly before it got going and after that it sounded fine. That and I was surrounded by this huge cloud of thick diesel exhaust smoke. I called the dealer immediately to tell him the problem, but as I expected, no dice. They'd already gone on vacation.

I got back from my flight last night and when I tried to start my car it was the same deal. Except this time it wouldn't start at all. I even had someone help me with a jump start in case it was my battery that was weak. So, the car is back at the dealership now getting looked at.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it can be? Keep in mind the car has had the same fuel in it for over a month so I'm thinking that is a possible culprit. Also, it just had all the valves and valve seals replaced, a new head gasket, and new head bolts. Also, one of the techs noticed my fuel pump timing was slightly off while the car was apart so he adjusted it to within VW specs.

Oh, and if anyone knows a competent TDI expert in the Raleigh area please get up with me. This not-having-a-car-for-over-a-month-straight thing is getting pretty old now. Thanks.
 

cp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it can be? Keep in mind the car has had the same fuel in it for over a month so I'm thinking that is a possible culprit.
It's not the fuel. One month old fuel will not cause what you describe. If your compression and timing are within specs, only two things will cause it not to start--a lack of fuel or a lack of heated air. The lack of fuel can be something as simple as air in the system. The lack of heated air can be glow plugs or relay.

Since you were able to get it going before, I suspect the glow plug system.
 

KROUT

persona non grata
Joined
Aug 26, 2005
Location
JAX FL
Sounds like they did the head for no reason. I cant see a piece of carbon causing valves to stick sound like BS to me.
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
The valves didn't stick and cause the failure. Carbon got lodged between the the valve and the valve seat so that when it closed it bent the valves. I admit that was mainly my fault for cleaning the intake improperly. Also, the dealer hasn't noted the computer throwing any glow plug codes, but that doesn't mean that they looked for it. It was like 40° F when I was trying to start it so that could be a possibility.

As for the lack of fuel concern; keep in mind when I crank it, the exhaust puts out lots of diesel-rich smoke, as if it's getting fuel and trying to start. The only thing I can think that could be causing it would be a loose fuel line connection that allows just enough air in to make it difficult to start, but run normally whenever the fuel pump is running at normal engine speed. But that is all speculation.

Thanks once again for the input guys, I appreciate it. I am seriously considering having the dealer check into the glow plugs. It would explain a lot of the way the car was acting when it was last running regularly in cooler weather before the car died initially.
 

cp

Veteran Member
Joined
Jan 25, 2001
Location
usa
TDI
2006 TDI Beetle
As for the lack of fuel concern; keep in mind when I crank it, the exhaust puts out lots of diesel-rich smoke, as if it's getting fuel and trying to start.
That sounds more and more like glow plugs/timing, not fuel.
 

Got diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
Apollo Beach FL
TDI
None at this time.
NuM3R1K vbmenu_register("postmenu_1185463", true); Let me have a look at it and plz tell me that you have not let the jack asses @ southern Stated try to make things worse since thay DONT KNOW HOW TO WORK ON TDI!!! If so call me I am In Cary NC and have fixed a few fourm members cars and Never have failed! 919-465-1359..Emmanuel Alot of local member met me at the RC GTG in oct..I am willing to help....
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
No, I did not take it to Southern States. I've heard about their reputation with TDI's and specifically avoided them. I took it to Leith VW in Cary on the recommendation of my regular shop and they have their "TDI expert" on the job. Thank you for the offer for help. I will get up with you after I get off work tonight.
 

Birdman

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Apr 7, 1999
Location
Near Hagerstown MD.
TDI
Jetta 2001 Died by Truck one snowy day. Jetta 2003
sounds like they got the timing way out of spec. They would need to retime it after pulling the head.
 

Got diesel

Veteran Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2001
Location
Apollo Beach FL
TDI
None at this time.
I talked to the tec working on the car,Carbon from the intake got in because the intake was NOT removed while cleaning it and the turbo might be shot as well full of carbon and Gunk and the intercooler had 1 qt of oil in it as well..Shall I go on???
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
Damn, I know the intercooler accumlates oil, but I didn't know it had accumulated that much. Thanks again for the input Emmanuel. I'll get up with you sometime next week so you can have a proper look at it.
 

slojoe

Veteran Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2005
Location
me
TDI
02 Golf
NuM3R1K said:
UPDATE (once again):
[...]
I got back from my flight last night and when I tried to start my car it was the same deal. Except this time it wouldn't start at all. I even had someone help me with a jump start in case it was my battery that was weak. So, the car is back at the dealership now getting looked at.
Does anyone have any suggestions as to what it can be? Thanks.
[...]
If your car's cranking but not starting, it might be a relay, as previously mentioned. Specifically, it could be the 109 relay, located under the steering column and available at the dealer for ~30 bucks, less online. If your car is a 99.5, you may have the fault-prone black one; I believe the newer, better one is gray. The way to check is (I think, do a search here for sure), with the key switched on, if the dash lights come on but the CEL and GPL don't light, it's the 109. A common occurance in early A4's, and few dealers seem to know how to diagnose it. If that starts your engine and it's still running rough, you might look at the N75 turbo regulator valve-- another thing the dealers don't usually know about. Again, a search here will give you particulars. Yes, you've just had major head surgery, but sometimes unrelated items fail at the same time. Wouldn't it be nice if the head work was done right and a simple relay or vacuum valve just decided to crap out at the same time? Good luck!
 

NuM3R1K

Well-known member
Joined
Jun 1, 2005
Location
Raleigh, NC
TDI
GLS, 1999.5 A4, Black
Since it is a 99.5, I think I might replace the 109 relay as a bit of preventative maintainance. I replaced the N75 valve and the MAF sensor about 8 months ago so I doubt those are the culprits.

Apparently they can get the car to run, it just "lags" noticeably in starting. Its always taken longer (by a second or two) for my car to start compared to most other cars, including other TDI's. I've noticed it a few times in the past, but it's never been much of an issue until the lag got so bad that the car just wouldn't start.

I feel like I know a decent bit about TDI, but that's mainly "book knowledge." Where my knowledge is lacking is in the applied side (actually fixing stuff) of how TDI's work. Hopefully I'll come out of this whole experience able to deal with something like this better in the future.
 

weedeater

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 17, 2001
Location
Reston, VA
TDI
Jetta, 2001, Baltic Green
What he said.

And the basic timing. Since they removed/replaced the head and timing belt, this is where I would start. This symptom sounds exactly like severely retarded timing. Once it starts, the ECU corrects it and it runs fine.
 

jsrmonster

Veteran Member - TDIClub Enthusiast
Joined
Apr 22, 2002
Location
Red Lion, PA
TDI
15 Golf SW DSG, RC3 piped, 99.5 Jetta Rocket PD150 6spd 4motion, 2000 ASV110 RC6 "Silverbullet" 5spd Race Car, 2003.5 Cummins QCLB 4x4 "Blue Monster" Jeep CRD juiced, MB Sprinter van juiced up
Hi,
When the tolerance gets too big in the main (10mm fuel pump) piston, it will have difficulty starting because it's struggling to make sufficient fuel pressure at such a low rpm. You can verify this by simply jump starting it. Find a hill and roll-start it in 2nd gear. If it pops right off, then the main piston worn out of tolerance. If it's still hard starting, then it's usually the timing. White smokey starts indicate the timing piston on the camplate in the pump is not positioned correctly. This is caused by wear or scratches in the timing piston bore, or insufficient case pressure. You can also check the case relief valve in the front of the pump while its still bolted to the car. I've talked about this plenty in the past, just search.
Jeff
 
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