Received Tesla Model 3, gave back TDI to VW

Jaestar3000

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Then what was leaking out of the back end of the Model S we had in hear a couple months ago? Sure looked like a big aluminum casting to me, and there was some sort of fluid leaking out of it leaving two trails out the back of the car. Differential? Not being argumentative, just generally curious. The owner was oblivious. I assume the car will suddenly grind to a halt on the highway once whatever lubricant gets low enough in whatever it is lubricating to cause an issue.
That could have been the battery cooling system leaking. Teslas have 1 fixed gear reduction box per motor I think, probably wasn't leaking. And it's not like that can't happen on a regular car considering how many things have fluids. It's like when the news went nuts when the first Tesla caught on fire getting it's battery punctured but gas cars catch on fire quite frequently (it's happend to me), new stuff scares people.
 

Jaestar3000

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A Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf for daily driving, Golf Sportwagen for trips would be an ideal combination for me. If I were still traveling a lot for business I'd have an electric, no question. HOV lane to the airport, front row parking in the garage, and free charging. I'd be a fool not to buy one.

But my non-DPF TDIs do fine on short trips, are fully amortized, and more fun to drive. I got out of my '02 Wagon this AM and we happy not to hear the chimes and reminders my newer cars seem dedicated to providing. Sometimes simpler is better.
That's sort of our situation, the TDI takes the long work commute for the wife and on vacations and I have the short trip Volt. The volt will still go 350 miles though, I think all the TDI drivers are spoiled by 500+ ranges so it's one of those times I realize, 350 miles is normal for most people - HOW DO YOU LIVE LIKE THIS? But I'm telling you, a plug-in hybrid will further warp your brain when you don't put fuel in it for 4000 miles, then when I do I'm thinking HOW DO YOU PEOPLE LIVE LIKE THIS?

Further evidence of changing how you think about driving... I hadn't had an automatic in 25 years until the Volt. But I still think autos suck and never know how to change gears as well as I do. The EV just reinforced that distaste, because there's just one gear, like a jet, it's more fun than I thought it would be.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm struggling with the 500 mile range on my '15 GSW. I'm used to starting a road trip west at home (Boston's South Shore) and filling somewhere around Toledo, OH. Or driving from Tennessee home on 81 and 95.

As Car & Driver so aptly stated in its long term review of the Tesla Model S, "you'll have to adjust to getting food where you stop to fuel the car instead fueling the car where you want to stop for food." I appreciated the TDI range when traveling with my dog because I could stop at rest stops where it was quieter and he liked it better, and didn't have to worry about getting fuel during the stop.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I was actually surprised there was not more of an EV push at the auto show this time around. I guess cheap fuel prices are not really pushing for them. Good time to buy a used one though!
Most of the manufacturers don't have much to show right now. The big push will be in 2020. I think we'll see a lot more EVs at the auto show next year and I expect them to dominate the stage in 2020.

This year's show was a bit disappointing. Several manufacturers were missing and the focus seemed to be on pickup trucks and 700 HP Hellcats.
 

VeeDubTDI

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I think that’s what people here have been saying. Many people on this site are naturally not statistical averages; they migrated to diesel because they are long-range drivers.

An EV just wouldn’t work for me with its baby range. I commute from Southern Delaware to Washington DC. Some days I catch a commuter bus halfway (and sleep!), but others I have to do the whole 90 miles each way if I have work beyond the bus schedule, and traffic is a wildcard . I take 20+ leisure trips a year over 200 miles, to Philly, DC, Balt, NYC and a couple more 1000+ mile family trips. EVs are a nonstarter in my life until they get some usable range to them. I’m certainly not opposed to one if it made sense, but it doesn’t.
A long range Model 3 would do your commute without stopping to charge, no problem, even in the winter.

So far I've managed to put 11,000 miles on my Fiat 500e since April 1st and it only has a range of about 80 miles. I'm really looking forward to our Model 3... the tough decision is whether to get first production RWD or wait for AWD. Decisions, decisions. Whatever we get, I anticipate numerous road trips around the USA just like I've been doing in the TDIs for nearly two decades.
 

VeeDubTDI

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This is interesting, but I’m not really sure what to make of it. On the one hand, Tesla wants to automate nearly every step of assembly. On the other hand, having recently visited the River Rouge Ford assembly plant, I see that it’s very common for many steps of the vehicle assembly process to be done by hand. On the F-150 line, we saw workers hand-assembling numerous parts of the vehicles interior and exterior - headliners, seatbelts, headlights and taillights, etc. I’d love to know more about what specific components of the battery pack are still getting put together by hand how that actually impacts production, but I don’t think we’ll ever get access to that information.

In related news, Tesla continues to register Model 3 VINs with NHTSA at a pretty good pace. Today’s news is that they’re up to VIN 10,060. Last week they were at 8,000, and earlier this month they were at 5,000. I’ve heard that it’s typical for manufacturers to register VINs in weekly or biweekly blocks, so this is a good indicator that the production line speed continues to ramp up at a steady pace.
 

GoFaster

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That could have been the battery cooling system leaking. Teslas have 1 fixed gear reduction box per motor I think, probably wasn't leaking.
You think that gear reducer doesn't have oil in it?

You think the drive shafts going out to the wheels don't have axle seals where they pass out of that gear reducer and into the outside world?
 

GoFaster

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This is interesting, but I’m not really sure what to make of it. On the one hand, Tesla wants to automate nearly every step of assembly. On the other hand, having recently visited the River Rouge Ford assembly plant, I see that it’s very common for many steps of the vehicle assembly process to be done by hand. On the F-150 line, we saw workers hand-assembling numerous parts of the vehicles interior and exterior - headliners, seatbelts, headlights and taillights, etc. I’d love to know more about what specific components of the battery pack are still getting put together by hand how that actually impacts production, but I don’t think we’ll ever get access to that information.
The difference is that the assembly operations on the F150 line that are done by hand, were designed to be done by hand. I haven't seen the F150 line but I'm very familiar with these types of operations in general. The workers will have specially designed lift-assists for handling large, heavy, or awkward objects ... it's still a manual operation, but the hard work is done for them. For situations where operators are loading parts by hand by design, there will often be sensors to detect that the part is correctly loaded.

I just spent 4 days in a Tier 1 supplier's facility in preparation for an upcoming new vehicle launch. They're using robots to weld sheet metal together (that's pretty much the only way to go nowadays), but forklifts (driven by people!) are bringing racks of parts from the stamping plant next door. Some of those racks are unloaded by robot (mostly for big parts), in other cases a bin of loose small parts is unloaded by a person and placed in a fixture; there's a sensor to detect that the part is in place; eventually a robot comes and gets it and does the welding ... This is very typical.

If you have a process that was designed to be automated, but the automation doesn't work ... that's a much bigger problem than having designed for manual parts handling all along.

The plant where I was, has something like 1400 employees.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I thought one interesting aspect of the article was the speculation on the cost of building each Model 3 and, at approx $40K per car, the prediction that there won't ever be any $35,000 models produced. Tesla may not have as many people using their reservations if cars persist at costing $50K plus.
 

compu_85

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Then what was leaking out of the back end of the Model S we had in hear a couple months ago? Sure looked like a big aluminum casting to me, and there was some sort of fluid leaking out of it leaving two trails out the back of the car. Differential? Not being argumentative, just generally curious. The owner was oblivious. I assume the car will suddenly grind to a halt on the highway once whatever lubricant gets low enough in whatever it is lubricating to cause an issue.
There's a single speed reduction gearset and differential, lubricated with about 2 qt of Dex 6 ATF.

IIRC Tesla says to change the oil every 150k miles. It probably wouldn't hurt to do it sooner.

-J
 

compu_85

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One interesting tidbit I found reading through the service schedule: Tesla says to replace the air conditioner desiccant bag every 2 years / 25,000 miles. Makes some sense... the AC is the only way the battery gets cooled and is critical to the operation of the car. Getting it recharged every 2 years would probably ensure it's always operating at its best.

-J
 

JDSwan87

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One interesting tidbit I found reading through the service schedule: Tesla says to replace the air conditioner desiccant bag every 2 years / 25,000 miles. Makes some sense... the AC is the only way the battery gets cooled and is critical to the operation of the car. Getting it recharged every 2 years would probably ensure it's always operating at its best.

-J

Can that A.C. service on Tesla be handled at a regular shop?
 

VeeDubTDI

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I thought one interesting aspect of the article was the speculation on the cost of building each Model 3 and, at approx $40K per car, the prediction that there won't ever be any $35,000 models produced. Tesla may not have as many people using their reservations if cars persist at costing $50K plus.
The standard $35,000 version of the car is due to be produced in the spring, even before the more expensive AWD version. I’ll be very surprised if Tesla never produces any base models... but hey, maybe Bob Lutz is right and they’ll go out of business next month.
 

oilhammer

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There are just too many to list....
Can that A.C. service on Tesla be handled at a regular shop?

Most likely, just like the other electric style systems that use a specific oil. Really just depends on the refrigerant.

While we still have (but rarely ever use) or old R12 machine, we also have:

2 R134a machines
1 R1234yf machine
1 "hybrid" R134a machine (these do not allow oil to mix, since electric compressors use a special non-combustible oil)

Assuming Tesla uses one of the standard refrigerants.
 

Mike_04GolfTDI

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Mine: 2019 Golf R DSG, Wife's: 2015 Golf Comfortline TDI
A Chevy Bolt or Nissan Leaf for daily driving, Golf Sportwagen for trips would be an ideal combination for me. If I were still traveling a lot for business I'd have an electric, no question. HOV lane to the airport, front row parking in the garage, and free charging. I'd be a fool not to buy one.
As electric cars become more common, governments will find new ways to extract money from drivers.

They lure you in with perks, and once enough people are hooked, they take it all away.

Locally, for example, they're looking into "mobility pricing." They're trying to figure out a way to charge people based on how far they drive. Well I thought that's what fuel taxes were for? The more fuel you buy, the more tax you pay.

They're not saying it because of electric cars, but I'm sure that's why. They need a way to replace that fuel tax revenue, without taxing electricity or directly taxing electric cars. What they should do is work out the average amount spent on fuel taxes per year, and add that to the license fees to drive an EV. Why should EV drivers not pay their fair share of the bloated salaries and bonuses for bureaucrats? (Fuel taxes are not used for road maintenance).
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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No big deal. Things always change. Our airport used to have a $75, then $90 max fee for short term parking. Now the meter just runs. And tolls go up all the time.
 

VeeDubTDI

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Locally, for example, they're looking into "mobility pricing." They're trying to figure out a way to charge people based on how far they drive. Well I thought that's what fuel taxes were for? The more fuel you buy, the more tax you pay.
That is what fuel taxes are for, but fuel taxes aren't a fair representation of road usage. Example 1: EV's use the roads but don't use fuel. Example 2: 80,000 pound trucks use the roads and cause far more damage than the tax on 6 MPG pays for.

Levying tax using an equation that factors in miles driven and vehicle weight makes the most sense if you want to tax road use fairly in all situations. Unfortunately, a lot of people think it's an invasion of privacy or government overreach.

But I digress. This is not the appropriate thread to discuss the complexities of road taxes.
 

joetdi

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In my "opinion" the electric car will meet the needs of very few people in the USA. They should be mandatory for small tropical islands.

Ya you might leave with a full tank every morning but, that's about it. And how far do you want to go before your forced to stop.

You are at the mercy of the batteries. You have to be willing to work around that and it may not be practical. If you have all the time in the world to go from A to B over long distances then it's for you maybe. A lot of us pull very heavy campers and boats. Sometimes together, sometimes not. I don't know of any electric car or truck that is going to pull my camper and boat, that together weigh over 13000 lbs. to a lake that is well over 200 miles away on one charge. The batteries will be dead after the first stop sign.

I'm also not seeing a lot of 18 wheelers around yet either that are full electric. I can only guess how long it would take for a truck to go from LA to NY and running a reefer on top of that.

To bad that there is not yet a safe way to have nuclear powered vehicles on the road. Accidents would be a bad thing.

I am not seeing the day where electric will totally replace the petro vehicles.

Just my thoughts you don't have to agree. They have a purpose but, only for a few.
 

quartersaw

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Let's not go down that road (see what I did there? :D) Teslas have their environmental penalties, too. I'm not convinced that one is better than the other.
The electricity that is charging the Tesla is largely derived from coal, gas, and oil.
 

quartersaw

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We can piss into the wind all we like, but electrification of the auto fleet is coming. They will cheaper, cleaner, and safer. As much as I enjoy my piston powered stuff, I don't feel threatened by electric vehicles. The whole "coal argument" gets more stale as those ancient powerplants get decommissioned and replaced with cleaner alternatives. I assume unicorn farts are primarily methane- so yes, that is an option :D .
If the Lithium/Oxygen battery is perfected, it *WILL* be game over for the internal combustion engine, in terms of mass production...
 

quartersaw

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So...... what's the plan for breaking our addiction to petroleum for fuel?...[/QUOTE

Drill more..lots more. I sit on top of the Marcellus shale. A few years ago some wind farms were built locally. Three of them, approximately 100mega watts each is the way it’s measured I believe. On any given day those wind farms are spitting out a pathetic 17 megawatts each. And the “green” jobs are non existent from those projects, a few temporary construction jobs with imported help and probably half a dozen permanent positions at each place.

The gas drillers on the other hand have come in and hired almost every available body in the county that wants to work. And they pay really well, now are the jobs temporary? Sure, but the drillers have been here for over 5 years and still going the wind company’s are long gone.

There is no plan to wean ourselves from oil and gas and live like the Amish, which is exactly what will happen if you depend on wind and solar. Only the rich will be able to afford the goodies in life and everyone else gets the dregs.
You wouldn't be saying 'drill more', if you drank your ground water, as many of us do. Fracking wells have an expected life of about 15 years. After that, all bets are off with regard to pollution of the ground water. Rural property values fall to near zero if the ground water is polluted, and oil companies frequently aren't held responsible for this ground water pollution. Do you think they really care if you are so victimized?
Neither do I....
https://www.cleanwateraction.org/20...tice-legally-polluting-sources-drinking-water
 

quartersaw

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It's not the electricity I was thinking of, it's the rare metals mining, battery disposal, that kind of thing.
Bolivia is a major source of lithium. Apparently, Afghanistan has large deposits of lithium as well. I would think that recycling of those batteries would be mandatory, and if not, it should be.
 

turbobrick240

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The rare earth metals are mainly in the permanent magnets inside the electric motors. The Tesla model S and X have AC induction motors which don't require rare earth metals. The model 3, semi, and other manufacturer's EV models have permanent magnet motors mainly due to their better efficiency. All in all, the environmental impact of producing, fueling, and recycling electric cars will be a fraction of the impact from producing, fueling, and operating todays ICE autos.
 

wensteph

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" All in all, the environmental impact of producing, fueling, and recycling electric cars will be a fraction of the impact from producing, fueling, and operating todays ICE autos."

Count me as skeptical on this.
 

VeeDubTDI

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In my "opinion" the electric car will meet the needs of very few people in the USA. They should be mandatory for small tropical islands.

Ya you might leave with a full tank every morning but, that's about it. And how far do you want to go before your forced to stop.

You are at the mercy of the batteries. You have to be willing to work around that and it may not be practical. If you have all the time in the world to go from A to B over long distances then it's for you maybe. A lot of us pull very heavy campers and boats. Sometimes together, sometimes not. I don't know of any electric car or truck that is going to pull my camper and boat, that together weigh over 13000 lbs. to a lake that is well over 200 miles away on one charge. The batteries will be dead after the first stop sign.

I'm also not seeing a lot of 18 wheelers around yet either that are full electric. I can only guess how long it would take for a truck to go from LA to NY and running a reefer on top of that.

To bad that there is not yet a safe way to have nuclear powered vehicles on the road. Accidents would be a bad thing.

I am not seeing the day where electric will totally replace the petro vehicles.

Just my thoughts you don't have to agree. They have a purpose but, only for a few.
Can your Jettas pull a camper or your boat? Can a Lincoln Town Car pull a 13,000 pound trailer? I ask because most households have more than one vehicle - a commuter and a workhorse or a luxury car.

An electric car can make a fantastic commuter that saves a lot of fuel and reduces the miles on your other vehicles.
 
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Jaestar3000

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Lithium is everywhere, plentiful in the earth's crust, however Cobalt is the rare metal in those batteries and only mined in a couple of countries. There's a race to replace it but for now Li-ion battery recycling is not lucrative enough to be a primary source but as every car company has announced gigantic battery production in the next two years there are some startups that will be "mining" those batteries for mostly the cobalt. That's the real difference when you think about it, sure you have to mine it but once it's out of the ground you can keep using it, unlike oil, you just burn that stuff and you got to get more. Anyway, from "well to wheels" there's hundreds of studies that say EVs still cut CO2 and general pollution over fossil fuels - even with mining and production and electricity generation.

Of course people get hung up on the electrical generation, which largely depends on where you live. Poland did a study and found that EVs are still cleaner event though they are nearly 100% coal powered. Here's a fun tool to tell you where your power comes from and what your EV's "long tailpipe" is https://www.afdc.energy.gov/vehicles/electric_emissions.php. Coal is on average less than a 1/3rd in the US now and declining, so that argument is less valid every day. I think about this when deciding to take the Volt or the TDI on a trip, once I pass 300 miles on the highway I'm getting 42mpg (about) and I might as well take the TDI at about 45. But at 150 miles I'm still over 50mpg in the Volt.
 
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