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TDIClub and TDIClub Forum News, Issues, Problems and Suggestions This is the place for updates on the website and forums. This is also the spot for forum questions, comments, ideas, gripes, requests, etc. This forum is NOT for posting problems about your car. Non-topic posts will be moved or removed.

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Old January 7th, 2006, 15:32   #1
BeetleGo
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Hi Fred,

Happy New Year to you from Boston. This site sure has grown over the years and 2006 promises to be a very interesting one, particularly with ULSD coming online (finally!). My best wishes to you and your fine efforts here.

Question/Suggestion:

Do you think perhaps it is time to add a Grease Car section to this place? It seems to me that the whole topic of using biofuels is expanding in the media and as a side-effect it's being reflected in the choices that our membership is making (i.e. we're seeing more greasers post).

Certainly there is the question of whether creating this section tacitly promotes/recommends doing such a thing. I'm not sure what your position on this is. I think a lot of TDI owners/club members - many with very credible technical backgrounds - would agree that it's probably NOT a good idea to use a TDI engine in this manner. But as long as this is clearly stated up front, it would at least provide a place to dicuss how to do the conversion properly and offer more focused discussion on the subject, especially the associated technical issues that crop up, etc. If this site is about sharing hard knowledge, it seems a worthwhile effort.

This would also help to reduce confusion in the biodiesel section between the two systems, since they really are two seperate worlds.

What do you think? Time for (yet another) new section to be added to this site in '06?

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Old January 7th, 2006, 16:25   #2
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I agree as I'm a greaser also.

Good grease posts get lost in the biodiesel section
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Old January 7th, 2006, 23:20   #3
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Taking into account the following factors (some of which you've touched on):

- Use of untreated vegetable oil is not approved by VW in any way, shape or form (biodiesel is, if only to a small percentage);
- Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;
- Use of vegetable oil seems to greatly shorten the life of the injector pump on the distributor-pump TDI engines;
- Use of vegetable oil is completely inadvisable on pumpe-duse or common-rail engines (which are the future);
- Having a forum section to discuss it could be interpreted as implied approval (as you noted), regardless of the presence of disclaimers;

... I don't think it's a good idea to have a forum section devoted to this, or at least, not yet.

But what MIGHT be a thought is to have a sticky FAQ thread in the Biodiesel section that explains what the situation is, and refers people to other websites for their own research. That sticky FAQ should clearly state the legal and technical risks, it should explain what the difference between biodiesel and SVO/WVO is, and it should clearly tell people that if they have a common-rail or P-D engine (and refer them to how they can tell if they have one of these or not) then they should forget about using SVO/WVO at all. For the protection of the website, it needs to clearly state that the emission certification on these vehicles is performed using petroleum-based No. 2 diesel fuel, and that use of any other fuel is considered "misfueling" and the emission certification (and the warranty) is no longer valid.

I know that the promoters of SVO/WVO might not agree with all of this, but we have to be a bit conservative to protect us (the website) from liability, and I think that's the situation we are in. I'd love to use SVO/WVO myself, but the fact is that the vehicle isn't designed for it AT ALL.

You know the now-famous mantra, "You are your own warranty" that came from the performance section of the TDIFAQ, in which those words are repeated many times? Same thing applies here.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 19:50   #4
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Of course, the biodiesel forums have SVO/WVO sections...

Seeing as SVO/WVO posts end up in the biodiesel section, why not rename that section to "Biofuels (Biodiesel, Straight/Waste Vegetable Oil)"?

Oh, and the disclaimer's a must.
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Old January 8th, 2006, 21:44   #5
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Default Read the whole post before you flame me:

Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster
I know that the promoters of SVO/WVO might not agree with all of this, but we have to be a bit conservative to protect us (the website) from liability, and I think that's the situation we are in. I'd love to use SVO/WVO myself, but the fact is that the vehicle isn't designed for it AT ALL.
You know the now-famous mantra, "You are your own warranty" that came from the performance section of the TDIFAQ, in which those words are repeated many times? Same thing applies here.
I do not see how WVO mods should be treated any different than chips, injectors, and boost valves. There are plenty of mantras in the performance section, but I do not see a sticky warning of impending doom. I would bet there are more cars damaged (engines, turbos, clutches....) by mods than WVO. There is a performance disclaimer located at the forum index. If a disclaimer is written, it should be written by both a supporter and a skeptic.
Anyone with a little mechanical sense knows that VW did not design these cars to run on WVO, and any "kit" that claims otherwise is stretching the truth. I am sure a more than a few of us are more interested in what the "system can do, not what it was meant to do" (Apollo 13).
While I feel the WVO should be treated little differently than mods, the people doing these things do so for very different reasons. Some like me have just enough mechanical knowledge to know this is probably a bad idea. But I am committed to using less petroleum and I will accept the consequences. I do not let anyone think I drive for free. I still burn a tank of B20 every 1500-2500 miles. I spend time and money processing oil. I have no illusions about what I am doing. Others think they will drive for free. These are the cheapskates who do not understand how the car works, much less how the WVO system works. They start WVO to soon, use it on short trips, collect the worst oil, and spend the least amount of time filtering and settling it. The car starts to break so they blame the system instead of blaming their own greed. These are the people who will be attracted to a WVO forum and tend to start new threads.
That being said, I do not think that there should be a WVO section. The few WVO posts created degenerate into flame fests anyway, that is why I seldom post in any of them. If some one is having a problem or question, I send a PM. If they just continue to complain like the guy from NC, I ignore them. Volume alone dictated the need for a biodiesel section which up till about a year ago was unbearable to read. I will not waste my time in a forum like that again.
My .02.
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Old January 9th, 2006, 18:32   #6
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I don't see why we should shoot down a WVO section.

Quote:
Use of untreated vegetable oil is not approved by VW in any way, shape or form (biodiesel is, if only to a small percentage);
Sure we treat it. We filter it several times and heat it before injection. Some people get crazy with it and spin up 5 gallons at a time on a centrifuge to get the junk to the bottom.

Quote:
Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;
Drugs are illegal, but people still use them.
And $3.50 /gallon for diesel is a nice ream in my checking account @ 3,000 miles / month of driving... IN CALIFORNIA. Good luck enforcing WVO ban on commuter cars each time they get pulled over by a smokey bear.

Quote:
Use of vegetable oil seems to greatly shorten the life of the injector pump on the distributor-pump TDI engines;
So does bad diesel. You need to heat WVO up to equal the viscosity of diesel (180F).

Quote:
Use of vegetable oil is completely inadvisable on pumpe-duse or common-rail engines (which are the future);
It's very difficult to run WVO on such a precise and high pressure system.

Quote:
Having a forum section to discuss it could be interpreted as implied approval (as you noted), regardless of the presence of disclaimers;
No it's not. It's not like we are street racing. Greasecar.com is online. I don't think anyone is bothering them...

Forums are designed for technical assistance. I think there is enough demand to make a WVO section worthwhile.
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Old January 10th, 2006, 15:37   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GoFaster
- Nor is its use as a road-legal fuel approved by EPA or DOT in the USA, nor by Transport Canada, nor are road taxes being paid, making the legality uncertain;

Hi all, I've been lurking here a while, first post. Currently shopping for a TDI of my own.

Does the EPA or DOT actually have to approve fuels on the road? Can somebody point something official about this?

The point about the road-tax seems sort of irrelevant: I don't think anybody with an electric car pays road tax on their home electric bill. Maybe I'm missing something there, but that's how I see it.

I'd also vote yes for a veggie section. Just because it may not be the best idea for you doesn't mean it's a bad idea for everybody. For one, if you have a half-dead motor anyway, then who cares about a little damage. It's obvious that tons of people are running veggie in TDI's and not having catastrophic failures. Maybe after 50, 100, 200k miles things will start showing up, and that's exactly where a forum would be great.

adam
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Old January 10th, 2006, 16:09   #8
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aberson: IIRC, the EPA has to approve fuels that are SOLD for road use, but (again, IIRC - this is VERY grey area, but it's a grey area I'm going right into) homebrew fuels and the like are fine.

As for taxes... the IRS wants money, but (yet again, IIRC) the IRS isn't making it possible to pay them for homebrew biodiesel/SVO/WVO/etc./etc. Yet.
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Old January 12th, 2006, 10:28   #9
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I pay my road tax each year I pay for my registration. When they rape us on diesel, I burn the french fry grease those fata**es eat.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 00:24   #10
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I know this is a bit off topic kind of so please excuse my ignorance.

I just purchased a 2006 Golf TDI and now I am under the impression that its not good to try and run SVO/WVO in it but am confused that some say that it MAY be possible.
My main confusion is that if the older injector pumps had lower injection pressure and the newer PD TDI's have a higher injector pressure pump then why can't VO be used in them. I mean if the lower pumps can atomize it so to speak then can't the higher pressure pumps atomize it even better.

I also have an 82 Rabbit Diesel and was wondering on the feasability of running SVO/WVO on that one. It has about 202k miles on it.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 07:00   #11
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O6, your question is off topic, but I'll try to answer it quickly here. In the future please free to open a fresh thread with a specific question if you can't find it already answered by using the search function that is in the blue bar at the top of the page.

I think this thread is pretty much tapped out, so no big deal. I'm just encouraging you to get a focused response to your question, which a seperate thread would promote.

The newer TDI's have smaller holes through which the fuel must flow through at the injectors - thus necessitating higher pressure to force the fuel through (think thumb at the end of a watering hose). You have to assume that the grease is virgin oil to remove contamination blocking up the injectors from the equation, not that people don't filter down to roughly equivalent standards.

But by the same token, you have to be much much more concerned about viscosity when asking the fuel pump to suck ever finer mists of oil through the injectors. Both issues - blocked injectors, and fuel that is too thick to be sucked through them efficiently spell heavy breathing by your fuel pump. Think stroke and heart attack.

Your old Golf on the other hand sounds like a PERFECT project car for the job!!! Older, simpler diesels are just not as picky.

~BeetleGo
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Old January 17th, 2006, 10:33   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 06golf82rabbit
I just purchased a 2006 Golf TDI and now I am under the impression that its not good to try and run SVO/WVO in it but am confused that some say that it MAY be possible.
My main confusion is that if the older injector pumps had lower injection pressure and the newer PD TDI's have a higher injector pressure pump then why can't VO be used in them. I mean if the lower pumps can atomize it so to speak then can't the higher pressure pumps atomize it even better.
To answer this in simple easy-to-visualize terms:

Go out to your garden hose. Turn the water on. Adjust the spray nozzle to give a nice fine atomized mist. No problem.

Now, switch the water off, drain the water out of the hose, and fill the hose up with something 15 times more viscous. Vegetable oil, for example. (I don't know if it's actually 15 times more viscous, but just bear with me - it will serve for illustration.) Then apply the same pressure. What happened to that nice fine atomized mist? It turned into a slow droopy dribble.

Okay, crank up the pressure. The droopy dribble dribbles a bit faster. Crank the pressure WAY up to try to compensate. KA-POW goes the garden hose from too much back pressure.

Some will argue that the temperature needs to be raised to make the viscosity into a comparable range. That's fine through the lines and the pump, but at the nozzle, that nozzle is exposed to combustion chamber temperature, and it runs hot even in normal operation. If you make it much hotter ... the vegetable oil starts to decompose and clog up the nozzles.
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Old January 17th, 2006, 13:50   #13
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Ok. thanks for clearing that up for me.

I do however once its paid for and the warranty is no good plan to do some experimenting with this car. (I have several others to fall back on in case I destroy this one) and actually prefer older to newer. It seems the newer cars are just becoming more and more junk to me.
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Old January 18th, 2006, 07:07   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rez311
I agree as I'm a greaser also.

Good grease posts get lost in the biodiesel section
ditto
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Old January 18th, 2006, 08:09   #15
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I agree that a WVO section would be nice. It might help cut through the misinformation and help people "do it right". Robdesigns hit it right on the head with the Apollo 13 quote. Sure the VW might not be designed for it, but CAN it do it? And for how long? A WVO forum would definitely help clear up some of these questions. However, I've noticed that WVO posts do tend to develop into flame-fests. Perhaps along with a "you ARE your own warranty" disclaimer we could add a "if you're vehemently opposed to WVO, try to state your opinion nicely".
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