Hydrogen Injection. Any scientific debunking or real world testing?

First, let me be clear what I am talking about. I mean supplementation of the air mixture with hydrogen gas (H2).

I'm aware this topic is discouraged, and I do not want to debate about it. But is anyone aware of objective testing of these systems? Almost everything I find online is anecdotal or snake-oil. Is there any scientific testing of these systems? I'm sure supplementation with H2 would make combustion more energetic. The question is if this gain can offset the inherently wasteful process of H2 generation.

If there is a place which has tested these systems, and found them to be worthless, great. I'm just interested in seeing some solid information on this. I'm aware of all the theoretical sides of the debate, so let's not get into that discussion. Just links to places which have done real testing (if any do indeed exist). It might be that no one has tested it simply because it doesn't make scientific sense - just as nuclear regulators do not study "leukemia clusters" around nuclear power plants since they know it's total BS (no causality) and at best a mere coincidence. So if there is a respected source which does an in depth analysis of the potential of these systems, and finds them to be worthless and as such not worthy of further investigation, that would also be great.

Combustion works by fuel reacting with oxygen. I'm not sure how adding hydrogen would ever help. Basic chemistry/physics.

Propane and nitrous oxide are better-known ways to improve performance, if you want to inject as gas.

Why would a respected source test something which is so obviously snake oil? You might try mythbusters.

Not a chemist, but I know that hydrogen burns at around 2000c, given enough oxygen and it only requires 5% to burn. As a combustion supplement, it might clean up partially burnt carbon, the rich fuel at the centre of the diesel spray, etc. There's quite a bit of activity: http://www.eng.bham.ac.uk/mechanical/about/people_tsolakis.shtml

I have a co-worker who has done this to 2 of his gassers and says he has 7% better gas milage.. he swears by this..

Probably something like a placebo effect. Once you buy some product, install it and maybe even tell all your friends what you did, you make it happen. Drive slower, accelerate carefully, brake less or just discount the bad numbers.

ibanix said:

Combustion works by fuel reacting with oxygen. I'm not sure how adding hydrogen would ever help. Basic chemistry/physics.

Propane and nitrous oxide are better-known ways to improve performance, if you want to inject as gas.

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It does help. That's not the question. A fire burns with oxygen and organic molecules, but put some hydrogen gas in there, and it will burn both hotter and faster (or for that matter a number of other gaseous accelerates, try spraying some propane onto a fire if you don't believe me). Basic chemistry.

There's no question as to whether it will increase combustion energy. The question is whether the gain is enough to offset the inefficient process of hydrogen production.

nortones2 said:

Not a chemist, but I know that hydrogen burns at around 2000c, given enough oxygen and it only requires 5% to burn. As a combustion supplement, it might clean up partially burnt carbon, the rich fuel at the centre of the diesel spray, etc. There's quite a bit of activity: http://www.eng.bham.ac.uk/mechanical/about/people_tsolakis.shtml

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Diesel burns in excess of 4600F/2600C (reason for higher NOx).

The hydrogen would pre-ignite prior to injection/TDC hammering the piston prior to TDC, this alone would cause a decrease in HP/Fuel economy not to mention drive up the stress on the con rods and pistons.

Now, if you were to tell me that hydrogen was being injected post injection via a second injector in that period known as "ignition delay" thus creating a faster smoother pressure rise and reduce the effect of the delay period...then we have something to talk about.

Otherwise Hydrogen injection in a diesel is pure Bull$hit.

DB

There are lots of SAE papers (i.e. a more credible, peer-reviewed source than some company's PR website) that investigates hydrogen-assisted combustion. If you really want scientifically-based research, that is your source, as it would be mine.

Almost everything else you will get here will be like something everyone's got: sphincters errrr... opinions.

This should not be that hard to test.. You take a container with fuel run a hose to the injector pump and time how long it takes to use that fuel up with or without that contraption.

Someone on the water4gas site claims the following

"The first ray of light appeared when Giorgio Rossi from Italy (www.Water4Diesel.com) achieved 77% better mileage with ONE cell on a 1.9 liter Turbo-Diesel car. That was January 2008."

NOW don't you think if 77% better fuel milage was obtained the auto companies would be beating down their doors?

I lean to snake oil but it might give a boost

DB,

What will cause the hydrogen to preignite? The temps and pressure in a diesel engine aren't high enough to auto ignite hydrogen. I have read some of the SAE papers and there is a slight increase in mpgs, but the main thing that they were looking for was a reduction in emmisions which it does do. I think the complexity of supplying the hydrogen which is more complex than buying Adblue and pouring it into a reservoir, makes it not economical. The cost benefit is not there.

wandlc said:

DB,
What will cause the hydrogen to preignite? The temps and pressure in a diesel engine aren't high enough to auto ignite hydrogen. I have read some of the SAE papers and there is a slight increase in mpgs, but the main thing that they were looking for was a reduction in emissions which it does do. I think the complexity of supplying the hydrogen which is more complex than buying Adblue and pouring it into a reservoir, makes it not economical. The cost benefit is not there.

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Along these same lines, why does propane injection work but hydrogen wouldn't (according to your "pre-ignition" issue?) Propane injection is a proven technology that has millions of miles behind it, so why can't hydrogen be made to work in the same manner? They're both combustible gases, yes?

I'm not trying to sell anything here, I don't have either system installed on my TDI, but I'm just wondering why so much H2 skepticism?

This is on the "banned subjects" list because the vast majority (99.99999+%) of such "hydrogen injection" schemes are sold by hucksters and are snake oil that will not accomplish anything whatsoever.

All such systems that utilize electricity generated by the engine itself (A) are only capable of generating amounts of hydrogen so miniscule that there cannot possibly be of any meaningful effect, and (B) increase power demand on the alternator, which makes the engine burn more fuel, and when you burn the hydrogen that the process itself created, you do NOT get it all back, because the engine is (considerably) less than 100% efficient.

You CAN use hydrogen as you would propane (i.e. externally generated), if you are willing to pay the very high cost and deal with all the storage and engineering headaches that come along with using hydrogen as an energy source (I refuse to call it a "fuel") for an engine.

In the threads explaining why this is a banned topic, there are links to existing threads that adequately de-bunk this process.

This thread is done.