10mm to 11mm injector pump conversion
- Thread starter FlyingFin
- Start date
I have done few 10 to 11mm pumphead swaps ore compleet builds.
Its not so hard just make sure when dissamble the pumphead the pumphead sits up right white the dilvervalves up. so when you turn the bolts loose you leave the rest inside the pump.
when you have done that re install is the same beware not to lose the washer under the plunjer. some crease helps sticking when install. then inline the plunjer with the camplate pin. and gentle lower the pumphead on. be gentle to screw the bolts back up. it must done right so the head dont go one side. and breaks the plunjer.
and keep it clean.
Its not so hard just make sure when dissamble the pumphead the pumphead sits up right white the dilvervalves up. so when you turn the bolts loose you leave the rest inside the pump.
when you have done that re install is the same beware not to lose the washer under the plunjer. some crease helps sticking when install. then inline the plunjer with the camplate pin. and gentle lower the pumphead on. be gentle to screw the bolts back up. it must done right so the head dont go one side. and breaks the plunjer.
and keep it clean.
From what I hear the delivery valves from the 10mm pump are better suited to lots of fueling. I don't fully understand it, but I've heard from smarter pump-guys (OM616 on STD) that you can use the right delivery valves to make a huge tractor puller IP put out much more modest amounts of fuel, and assume that the opposite could be true if you've got those limiting valves in your pump already.
I've got a chinese 12mm head I'm gonna try and stick in my 10mm pump, with the 10mm camplate to start with and maybe an 11mm pump's one (which is supposedly a little more aggressive) if the amount of fueling isn't enough. These pumps are very DIY friendly, no governor to worry about setting up, and the shutoff valve is very simple and completely independent of the fueling rack (delivery adjuster) so if you do manage to screw it up and get a runaway, the shutoff solenoid will still do as it should.
Anyone got a link to setting up the shims? I hear mention of measurements "k" and "kf", but nothing on what they are.
I've got a chinese 12mm head I'm gonna try and stick in my 10mm pump, with the 10mm camplate to start with and maybe an 11mm pump's one (which is supposedly a little more aggressive) if the amount of fueling isn't enough. These pumps are very DIY friendly, no governor to worry about setting up, and the shutoff valve is very simple and completely independent of the fueling rack (delivery adjuster) so if you do manage to screw it up and get a runaway, the shutoff solenoid will still do as it should.
Anyone got a link to setting up the shims? I hear mention of measurements "k" and "kf", but nothing on what they are.
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dropanotherthou
Active member
I've only heard bad things about those Chinese 12mm heads. One story about them destroying an engine.
eh, I'll chance it, 'sjust metal
all I can see is the plunger siezing in the head and breaking the pump shaft's ears (maybe the Tbelt if I'm really lucky)
or the quantity adjuster seizing and making it go full fueling which is a runaway that would not cause damage unless you're daft, just turn the key off and it shuts off.
Digital Corpus
Top Post Dawg
The daft think that turning the igniftion off will stop a runaway. It wouldn't be called that it avoid it were as simple. You'll have to stall the engine with a high gear to shut it off.
There are many things that can cause such a situation.
Some of them can be shut down by the fuel shut off solenoid. Some cannot.
Without quick action, some of them that can be shut down will progress to a point that they cannot, though.
Say, the quantity adjuster siezes to the plunger with the spill port full closed. Or the 'governor' gets assembled wrong and the QA ring gets put in the same full fuel condition.
Does it affect the operation of the fuel shutoff solenoid in any way? Nope.
Fuel shutoff solenoid on these pumps holds a rubber plunger back out of a taper seat in the head's inlet port. When the solenoid coil is de-energized and spring pressure poops the rubber dingus back into the intake port, stopping fuel flow into the pressure chamber the engine shuts down.
Now say those same type of failures occur, and the wife's driving. Car takes off, stab the clutch! Oh no, tach's pegged and the 300k mile old piston rings are letting enough blowby past that the CCV starts pooping oil into the intake, game over man.
Please understand a system yourself before denouncing others in regard to its operation.
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Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
[486] - you're not correct on this one. You can drive quite a ways on just the fuel inside the pump itself with the shutoff solenoid off.
I've driven several miles this way before (about 2 miles one time and about 5 another). I had a switch intercepting the shutoff solenoid and the wire broke off.
The reason the engine shuts off nice and quick with the key isn't due to the shutoff solenoid, it's because the ECU drives the QA to zero. If you disconnect power from the shutoff solenoid while the engine is running under ECU control, it'll keep running for a little while (much more so if you keep the revs up) since as the RPM's drop, the ECU is commanding more QA Position and it will pull a void inside the case (or pull air past the shaft seal or any other place it can) and keep running on the fuel inside the pump.
If you experience a runaway for any reason whatsoever - NEVER push the clutch in - it won't always re-engage a fully fueled engine at high RPM/high load. Just leave it in whatever gear it's in and stand on the brakes. The brakes are WAY more powerful than the engine could ever hope to be and will bring it to a stop the quickest.
I've driven several miles this way before (about 2 miles one time and about 5 another). I had a switch intercepting the shutoff solenoid and the wire broke off.
The reason the engine shuts off nice and quick with the key isn't due to the shutoff solenoid, it's because the ECU drives the QA to zero. If you disconnect power from the shutoff solenoid while the engine is running under ECU control, it'll keep running for a little while (much more so if you keep the revs up) since as the RPM's drop, the ECU is commanding more QA Position and it will pull a void inside the case (or pull air past the shaft seal or any other place it can) and keep running on the fuel inside the pump.
If you experience a runaway for any reason whatsoever - NEVER push the clutch in - it won't always re-engage a fully fueled engine at high RPM/high load. Just leave it in whatever gear it's in and stand on the brakes. The brakes are WAY more powerful than the engine could ever hope to be and will bring it to a stop the quickest.
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
Sorry for the OT discussion
I've swapped between 10mm and 11mm pumps on my ALH and can't say that I noticed much of a difference (certainly less of a difference than switching between PP502's and R520's).
The plunger diameter is only half the equation, you need to know the camplate profile (lift and duration) combined with the plunger area to determine total flow rate available to the injector.
I'm guessing that on the ALH application, they used the 11mm with smaller nozzles (compared to the 10mm with bigger nozzles), but there may be a camplate difference so you won't necessarily get 22% more fuel from an 11mm pump than an 10mm pump. This may explain the relatively minor power difference I experienced.
Now if you're just putting a 11mm head on a 10mm camplate, then I'd expect that you then have ~22% more fuel delivery for the same QA position (assuming the QA collar/ and hole diameter is the same as well).
Can anyone confirm that the 10mm and 11mm camplates are the same or different?
I've swapped between 10mm and 11mm pumps on my ALH and can't say that I noticed much of a difference (certainly less of a difference than switching between PP502's and R520's).
The plunger diameter is only half the equation, you need to know the camplate profile (lift and duration) combined with the plunger area to determine total flow rate available to the injector.
I'm guessing that on the ALH application, they used the 11mm with smaller nozzles (compared to the 10mm with bigger nozzles), but there may be a camplate difference so you won't necessarily get 22% more fuel from an 11mm pump than an 10mm pump. This may explain the relatively minor power difference I experienced.
Now if you're just putting a 11mm head on a 10mm camplate, then I'd expect that you then have ~22% more fuel delivery for the same QA position (assuming the QA collar/ and hole diameter is the same as well).
Can anyone confirm that the 10mm and 11mm camplates are the same or different?
adamss24
Veteran Member
A friend of mine swapped a AHH 11mm pump onto a 1.9 tdi quattro audi a 4 a few years ago, it felt nimbler than with the 10mm pump at any revs, it also raised the max speed a little ! Mods were: bv43, audi a6 c5 0.216 complete injectors, pd 130 boost pipes and a generic remap...
The camplates are different, the automatic pump had a more aggressive profile and more lift. I think this can be found at the forum as well, look for DE143 or DE110.
Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 1998
- Location
- Boise, Idaho
- TDI
- 2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
Nice guess, but 100% wrong...
The ECU in fact uses the Shut-off solenoid as the primary kill switch for the injection pump.
The ECU command the Solenoid to energize (which is why your engine will die when the alternator and battery are dead) unlike older engines like the MB that have a manual cut-off (fail operational design).
Let's follow the path of the fuel so you guys understand how the injection pump works...
Fuel is suction fed from the tank to the injection pump housing where it is pressurized to around 110-130 psi. This positive pressure mitigates cavitation and assists the filling of the high pressure plunger port.
Positive fuel pressure also controls timing advance (Hydraulically), but thats another subject.
Fuel exits the top of the central chamber via a feed channel that leads to the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid (kind of why its called that...)
The Solenoid when energized uncovers the feed port leading to the inlet port of the high pressure plunger chamber.
As the High pressure plunger reciprocates and rotates in the bore, it aligns with the specific feed port that fuel is pumped under high pressure to.
When you shut the engine off, the Fuel-Shut off Solenoid, is spring loaded to CLOSED and blocks all fuel from entering the high pressure chamber and the engine shuts down immediately.
The Quantity adjuster only comes into play during over-run when the engines RPM's are being sustained, thus the Quantity adjuster is commanded to zero, however this is not a perfect adjustment so positive cut-off of the fuel cannot be assured so this is simply a means to control load ONLY with no other associated function in the VE fuel system.
In a runaway situation, the Quantity adjuster by default will show "0" since this interpreted as a "Over-run" condition and normal in the context of diesel operation.
Again, the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid is the PRIMARY and SOLE means of shutting a TDI with the VE pump off.
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Drivbiwire
Zehntes Jahr der Veteran
- Joined
- Oct 13, 1998
- Location
- Boise, Idaho
- TDI
- 2013 Passat TDI, Newmar Ventana 8.3L ISC 3945, 2016 E250 BT, 2000 Jetta TDI
There is more to it than just swapping pump heads, there are multiple shim points that MUST BE ADJUSTED or you WILL SEIZE THE PUMP!
If the pump seizes you not only take out the timing belt but you get catastrophic damage to the pump, so in effect you just just destroyed EVERYTHING related to the motor... The pump will not be repairable if this occurs... If you are lucky the motor can be with another $4-5K thrown in.
Its not worth messing with, have it done correctly!
Mikkijayne
Veteran Member
Is there any documentation on the web which explains the shimming procedure? I searched extensively a while back and got nothing 
X 2, cant justify 1000 on installing 12mm Head on a running 11mm pumpIs there any documentation on the web which explains the shimming procedure? I searched extensively a while back and got nothing
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
So, I must be missing something here because my theory is such that it wouldn't ever shut off with the fuel shutoff solenoid which I'm guessing is not correctNice guess, but 100% wrong...
The ECU in fact uses the Shut-off solenoid as the primary kill switch for the injection pump.
The ECU command the Solenoid to energize (which is why your engine will die when the alternator and battery are dead) unlike older engines like the MB that have a manual cut-off (fail operational design).
Let's follow the path of the fuel so you guys understand how the injection pump works...
Fuel is suction fed from the tank to the injection pump housing where it is pressurized to around 110-130 psi. This positive pressure mitigates cavitation and assists the filling of the high pressure plunger port.
Positive fuel pressure also controls timing advance (Hydraulically), but thats another subject.
Fuel exits the top of the central chamber via a feed channel that leads to the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid (kind of why its called that...)
The Solenoid when energized uncovers the feed port leading to the inlet port of the high pressure plunger chamber.
As the High pressure plunger reciprocates and rotates in the bore, it aligns with the specific feed port that fuel is pumped under high pressure to.
When you shut the engine off, the Fuel-Shut off Solenoid, is spring loaded to CLOSED and blocks all fuel from entering the high pressure chamber and the engine shuts down immediately.
The Quantity adjuster only comes into play during over-run when the engines RPM's are being sustained, thus the Quantity adjuster is commanded to zero, however this is not a perfect adjustment so positive cut-off of the fuel cannot be assured so this is simply a means to control load ONLY with no other associated function in the VE fuel system.
In a runaway situation, the Quantity adjuster by default will show "0" since this interpreted as a "Over-run" condition and normal in the context of diesel operation.
Again, the Fuel Shut-off Solenoid is the PRIMARY and SOLE means of shutting a TDI with the VE pump off.
- At the end of the fuel delivery stroke the holes at the control collar are open.
- The engine is still turning so the vane pump is pressurizing the case of the pump.
- Let's say the fuel shutoff solenoid is now closed...
- The plunger retracts, fuel can't enter "over the top", but it can enter back through the holes by the control collar and start filling the pumping chamber.
- The holes at the control collar eventually get covered up so the plunger will stop filling and pull a void (not unlike what happens in a CR pump).
- Now, in theory, it will not take in any additional fuel since the control collar is in the same location, but any leakage or control collar movement to the left will allow some fuel to be injected on the next stroke.
- The plunger then goes forward, collapsing the void, pressurizes the remaining fuel then injects and the process repeats and the engine keeps running.
Why will it shutoff if the control collar does not move all the way left (which will not allow it to pressurize the fuel)
What am I missing?
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php/topic,6427.30.htmlIs there any documentation on the web which explains the shimming procedure? I searched extensively a while back and got nothing
post fourty
more or less, don't bottom out the plunger, and don't coil bind the springs
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in the time that the spill port is open to the pump case there can't be any pressure built to open the DVs much less the injectors
in the one you modified, the plunger is going toward TDC, fuel is flowing out of the pumping chamber, then it will flow back in when the piston returns, the same amount goes in as comes out.
The sequence of events is injection event, spill port opens, tdc, spill port closes, bdc, injection
if the control collar moved to the right after the spill port closed, then there's the possibility of injecting that amount of fuel, but it would be a one time event, unless you were able to move the collar left after the injection event, and right before the spill port closes
vanbcguy
Veteran Member
Don't forget the Pre-TDI pumps ONLY have the fuel shutoff solenoid, they have no quantity adjuster at all. The pump head, plunger and control collar are all identical identical on the mechanical pumps to the electronic ones and they most definitely rely on the shutoff solenoid to shut off the engine.
Fix_Until_Broke
Top Post Dawg
Understood, it obviously works - I just have not been able to make sense of how it works in my head.
Really? Was I off topic by also asking DIY info on pump swaps? Don't expect too many reply if your rude.
Also DBW gave you his opinion on swapping heads not being DIY (Like you asked), if you don't like the answer don't ask the questions.
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I revise my answer to "no, take it to a pump shop"
Or hell, slap the parts in with no adjustment or understanding of how they work, see how well it works out for you when the plunger bottoms out in the pump head, breaks your timing belt and bends half your valves.
Just when the thread was getting good... To the OP sometimes you let it go... or you re-ask a specific and it will go back where you want it... you post like that and your just whining... The only thing I saw your post missing was all caps!
Oh you did use them.."MY" ... as for that maybe you will only be the only person left posting.
Time to unsub this one... Thanks for the tech content that was posted though!! It was appreciated!!
Oh you did use them.."MY" ... as for that maybe you will only be the only person left posting.
Time to unsub this one... Thanks for the tech content that was posted though!! It was appreciated!!
There you go guys....
All yours.... Argue away!! Have a free for all, any subject!!!!
And, I apologise for and, how dare I ask a question on a public forum which I and many others might have gained knowledge from....
Silli, Silly me!
All yours.... Argue away!! Have a free for all, any subject!!!!
And, I apologise for and, how dare I ask a question on a public forum which I and many others might have gained knowledge from....
Silli, Silly me!
Alright. Question. To all you smart mofos.
Can I use a advance solenoid from a 10mm pump, and put it into an 11mm pump?
My 11mm solenoid I believe is shot and I cannot find one online for sale. Only a 10mm one.
Part number I think is 028906283P or M
Can I use a advance solenoid from a 10mm pump, and put it into an 11mm pump?
My 11mm solenoid I believe is shot and I cannot find one online for sale. Only a 10mm one.
Part number I think is 028906283P or M