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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:34   #61
DuluthRooster
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Quote:
Originally Posted by slojoe
Andy, I'm interested in what kind of mileage you're getting with your VNT-17, RC3, etc., currently in the wagon?
Driving home 725 miles from Missouri I got 680 miles on the tank and averaged 43.7 mpg. That was driving 10 over with a couple of 100 plus bursts to dislodge a pesky 5-series beemer near Nashville . Not bad for an automatic with an "off balanced" tune. I am still running RC3 setup for stock turbo and Sprint 520's. Aligator tune on the way from Kerma.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:38   #62
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"My opinion is that making sure your injectors are popping correctly and not leaking is the difference between a destroyed engine and one that has WVO life expectancy."

Good advice. A well known SVO kit maker advises rebuilding the injectors at conversion. Few do.
Another SVO veteran advises rebuilding the injectors every 60K.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:39   #63
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasee
I'm no chemist. But the theory is that a plant-based engine oil will not polymerize when diluted with biodiesel or WVO as it is designed for this. Plantomot and Biomot are both oils that are used all over EU specifically for this.
Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase.

In fact, some of the best lubricants, in use in racing applications up until the 1950's were Castor oil (this is where the brand name "Castrol" is derived from.) However, racing teams abandoned them in favor of petroleum based lubricants, which had poorer lubricity, because the Castor oil was known to form gums and varnishes (polymerize.)

Many organic molecules with double bonds (unsaturated) have the potential to polymerize, especially those with a vinyl carbon(s.)


Edit to add: There are also oils known as "drying oils." Linseed oil is a good example. If you have worked with wood you know it makes a good varnish. One very simple experimental way home brewers and waste vegetable oil users can determine if thier oil source may varnish is to simply paint some from each collected batch on a piece of scrap wood and expose it to daylight. If it forms a hard, dry varnish in a day or two, it will very likely polymerize in your crankcase too. If it remains wet to the touch it likely will not. This is by no means definitive, but perhaps it can help give a rough go/no-go type decision for each collection batch of WVO.

Last edited by nicklockard; August 8th, 2007 at 23:45.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:48   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DuluthRooster
Driving home 725 miles from Missouri I got 680 miles on the tank and averaged 43.7 mpg. That was driving 10 over with a couple of 100 plus bursts to dislodge a pesky 5-series beemer near Nashville . Not bad for an automatic with an "off balanced" tune. I am still running RC3 setup for stock turbo and Sprint 520's. Aligator tune on the way from Kerma.
That's pretty good mileage for a modded wagon!
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:49   #65
BioDiesel
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Default Clarification on polymerization

Nick posted:

"Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase."

It's not the crankcase lube that polymerizes, but the unburned VO fuel thats mixed in with the crankcase oil. POsted a pic. a year ago, looked like a thick black rope ni the bottom of the pan.
FWIR, the VO is prone to polymerize if concentrations get close to 10%.
This happens in the presense of petroleum based cranckase oils, but won't happen in the presense of a vegetable oil based crankcase oil.

Nicks test for drying may work, but JourneyToForever has a Drying Index table for various oils. Linseed
is the highest at 130 ( iirc ). Canola is around 100, and soy at 105-110.
One TDI'er who accidentaly ran linseed did ruin his engine.
If you get significant ( > 10% ) portions of VO in your crankcase, you should assume that it will polymerize as it has exposure to heat and air, unless you're running a veg-oil based crankcase oil.

Last edited by BioDiesel; August 6th, 2007 at 12:55.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 12:55   #66
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BioDiesel
Nick posted:

"Vegetable oil based lubricants are no less likely to polymerize at temperature and pressure in the mildly acidic environment of a crankcase."

It's not the crankcase lube that polymerizes, but the unburned VO fuel thats mixed in with the crankcase oil. FWIR, the VO is prone to polymerize if concentrations get close to 10%.
I'm aware of that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BD
This happens in the presense of petroleum based cranckase oils, but won't happen in the presense of a vegetable oil based crankcase oil.
Ummmm, why? Please support this (rather large and blanket-like and very hard to swallow) claim.
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Old August 6th, 2007, 13:02   #67
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"Ummmm, why? Please support this (rather large and blanket-like and very hard to swallow) claim."

I can't. As I said earlier, I'm not a chemist. I'm just passing along wisdom.
If you can speak German, ask at www.fmso.de

Now that I have some veggie-based crankcase oil, I should be able to do a stovetop experiment and prove it. Or I can ship quart to you Nick.
Onother poster said that they heated a sample of VO diluted c.c.o. on a stove at 350*F (?) for 1 1/2 hours and found it later with 'string' or 'rope' inside. This is getting OT, so please start another thread to discuss further.

Last edited by BioDiesel; August 6th, 2007 at 13:05.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 03:29   #68
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Default Full reply from Ed Beggs of PlantDrive over at Infopop

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...1/m/9881052012

He provides a link to the German study recommending only canola for TDI's.
[I only burned Canola last winter. I've done 65K on mostly hydrogenated soy, which may be better than non-hydrogenated soy.] Apparantly the canola works cause there's an identical car with 180,000 miles on used canola.

Chipped+Fatter search:
http://forums.tdiclub.com/search.php?searchid=1718258

Last edited by BioDiesel; August 7th, 2007 at 05:58.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 07:13   #69
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Quote:
This is by no means definitive, but perhaps it can help give a rough go/no-go type decision for each collection batch of WVO.
don't you mean GOO/NO-GOO
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Old August 7th, 2007, 16:20   #70
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hey there this is totally of the subject but im interested in the eurojet smic was it an easy install and were do u get 1???
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Old August 7th, 2007, 17:28   #71
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Quote:
Originally Posted by runonbeer
don't you mean GOO/NO-GOO
Actually, YES! Lol.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 17:51   #72
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The only thing that I noticed about the Eurojet intercooler was it seemed to hold the fender a bit forward from where it was intended. there is a shroud that needs to be modified and the air dam just seems to hang in place.

Thanks for the 'thumbs up" on checking injectors. Of the ones I have seen, the bodies have a polymer coating internally. I don't know if my limited viewpoint is valid, as I also only see the ones that have hydro-locked or otherwise blown up. That gives me a bit of a unrealistic viewpoint.
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Old August 7th, 2007, 23:54   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveMyVW
hey there this is totally of the subject but im interested in the eurojet smic was it an easy install and were do u get 1???
There were no instructions with the Eurojet so I used the instructions that are posted on the TyrolSport site for their SMIC. You must remove the right headlight, right fender liner, and washer bottle. There is some trimming of the plastic under the washer bottle. The old air shroud is too small and Tyrol says their testing showed it made little difference. I just pinched it in place on the front of the Eurojet and the bumper holds it on place. I also changed to a 3 bar MAP for the VNT-17/22.

I got the Eurojet from Kerma. Its real purty. Too bad you cant see it when installed
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Old August 8th, 2007, 11:32   #74
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Default Your post has had positive effects.

Andy..thank you for posting this.
Very few folks are willing to post news that they feel indicate a failure. But experimentation is in fact usually one failure after another with improvements in between...eventually leading to more and more success.
Your post here was almost immediately linked to in several of the VO conversion forums. I saw it HERE. It generated quite a bit of discussion on what had probably occcurred and how to prevent it from occurring in the future. Several folks with over a decade of VO conversion experience participated..including the designer of the kit you used. I have a respect for his choosing to do so similar to that I have for you choosing to share this unfortunate event with us.
As a result of THAT discussion a short "tutorial" is being created HERE that will be archived and linked to in as many VO conversion related forums/discussions as possible. Hopefully this will significantly reduce the number of individuals who repeat your experience in the future.

Again..thank you for sharing this with us all.
We are all a bit richer because you were "man" enough to do that.
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Old August 8th, 2007, 13:43   #75
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danalinscott
Andy..thank you for posting this.
Very few folks are willing to post news that they feel indicate a failure. But experimentation is in fact usually one failure after another with improvements in between...eventually leading to more and more success.
Your post here was almost immediately linked to in several of the VO conversion forums. I saw it HERE. It generated quite a bit of discussion on what had probably occcurred and how to prevent it from occurring in the future. Several folks with over a decade of VO conversion experience participated..including the designer of the kit you used. I have a respect for his choosing to do so similar to that I have for you choosing to share this unfortunate event with us.
As a result of THAT discussion a short "tutorial" is being created HERE that will be archived and linked to in as many VO conversion related forums/discussions as possible. Hopefully this will significantly reduce the number of individuals who repeat your experience in the future.

Again..thank you for sharing this with us all.
We are all a bit richer because you were "man" enough to do that.
Thanks for the post, Dana

I hope that my post has in some way benefited this community that I so much respect. I can see why many that fail go quietly since it has been hard being called everything from incompetent to negligent on various boards. I respect this community of alternative fuelers and wish for us all to learn how to do this better. Chasee and others are having great success with these conversions.

Most of all I have the utmost respect for the maker of my conversion kit. I would never want this to be taken as a knock against their fine product.

I am a firm believer in personal responsibility and I am big enough to stand here and admit I could have done things better. Spending $4000 dollars last week was the price I paid along with being autopsied on the internet.

Now off to try my hand at biodiesel production. Perhaps it may work better with my Soybean oil source and a modded Jetta Wagon. If not, I will be prepared to face the music again.

Andy
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