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Go Back   TDIClub Forums > VW TDI Discussion Areas > Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc)

Alternative Diesel Fuels (Biodiesel, WVO, SVO, BTL, GTL etc) Discussions about alternative fuels for use in our TDI's. This includes biodiesel WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil), SVO (Straight Vegetable Oil), BTL (Biomass to Liquid), GTL (Gas to Liquids) etc. Please note the Fuel Disclaimer.

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Old December 30th, 2012, 10:04   #1
scr8pdo
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Default Black diesel anyone??

As the title says, has anyone tried black diesel AKA old engine oil blended and filtered?

I have been looking into this as an option as I have virtually unlimited access to this stuff as in a breakers yard, and have heard so many different opinions on this subject:

For a start, there has been talk of there being metallic particles in the oil, but surely some of the filtering techniques would surely sort this problem, some people are saying a definate NO NO and others are saying its fine as long as you do this or that, others say they would use in an older diesel but not in a common rail etc etc etc.

I will tell you here and now my very little experience with it, I was using an old car last year that had a few weeks tax and test left on it and the car was due to be scrapped at the end anyway, it was an old R reg Citroen Xantia TD btw, I was also running it on the very least fuel I could get away with as I didnt want to be spending any money I didnt need to before I ran it in, well me and my mrs were driving round Wigan when it coughed to a halt out of fuel, I checked the boot for a jerry can to go and get a gallon of diesel and all I had was a 5 litre Castrol GTX bottle full of used filthy black engine oil I had drained from my Iveco recovery truck, I thought what the hell and poured it straight into the tank, I connected my booster pack up, primed the filter bulb up until I was getting fuel out and spun it over, it fired into life no problem whatsoever.

Now I wouldnt condone doing this on a car you were planning on keeping, remember this was filthy black sludgy old engine oil with a good 12k on it if not more, but it DID run and ran very very well, BUT I dont rekon the fuel filter would last too long running stuff that dirty through it.

Now I have heard of sooo many different filtering, blending methods being used from tying a knot in a leg of denim jeans and letting the old stuff filter through, then other methods of mixing it 50/50 with road fuel then filtering through different micron filters down to 1 micron or 0.5 micron, then at the other end of the scale using a proper centrifuge to do it.

Now all I would be concerned about is how much filtering would need to be done, I would have no problem going out now and tipping a gallon of new Castrol GTX in my tank cause I KNOW IT DOES WORK, its just as I say how far to go with the filtering and or blending, obviously when I did it it was only for a very short period but I would be very interested to hear from folks who have been using "Black diesel" as it seems a very good way of saving money plus recycling the old oil, win win if it works fine

PS: there was one other way I heard of filtering but it would take a heck of a long time:

have a bucket of WEO (waste engine oil) raised on a shelf with an empty clean bucket below, then cut a length of rope measured from the bottom of the top bucket of WEO up and over the edge and down into the new clean bucket, looped over, the idea being the rope would absorb the oil over time and sort of syphon down into the clean bucket, while the rope would act as a good filter and would not allow any suspended particles to get into the clean one


BTW: my car is not a PD or common rail and I would be very reluctant to put it in a common rail until I knew it was safe or had tried it on an old scrapper, I also hold no responsibility for any damage if anyone tries this ITS UP TO YOU, I was just telling you of my personal experience and the car was running absolutely fine when I scrapped it a few weeks later, in fact it seemed to run smoother on the old oil

Last edited by scr8pdo; December 30th, 2012 at 10:11.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 10:39   #2
Ski in NC
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I have run a 50/50 blend of diesel and used engine oil in a IDI genset. After a while the piston rings stuck from deposits, blowby shot out the dipstick and engine shut down on low oil pressure.

The problem was there are numerous compounds in lube oil that do not burn completely and will form deposits in various places. Some of these compounds might be extracted by filtration, some may be submicron and pass through any reasonable filter.
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Old December 30th, 2012, 11:00   #3
scr8pdo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
I have run a 50/50 blend of diesel and used engine oil in a IDI genset. After a while the piston rings stuck from deposits, blowby shot out the dipstick and engine shut down on low oil pressure.

The problem was there are numerous compounds in lube oil that do not burn completely and will form deposits in various places. Some of these compounds might be extracted by filtration, some may be submicron and pass through any reasonable filter.
Thanks for the reply, this the feedback iam interested in as I dont want to trash a good engine to save a few quid, there is a LOT of it on the net with so many different stories with WMO/WEO

As for WVO or SVO I have used unlimited amounts of SVO for a long time in various cars with no problem at all iam talking years with that stuff, it seems a shame if WEO could have been used safely as I have disposed of tons of this.

I might even get a "project car" or just an engine running in an old shell and just feed it generally filtered WEO and see how long it would run, just keep it in the corner of the yard and burn the old engine oil through it???
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Old December 31st, 2012, 10:58   #4
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The problem with WMO is its very high boiling point. Diesel fuel tops out at about 650°F, while WMO is well above that. The high boiling point molecules are what makes the deposits.

A genset is not a good indication of the practicality of WMO in a vehicle. They run at a constant (low) rpm. A diesel engine revs higher at times. The high rpms produce high temps which will help remove the deposits. In other words, the nature of a genset is much more deposit-prone than an engine in a vehicle.

SVO or WVO is very different than WMO. Both are viscous, which can be dealt with be diluting or heating. WMO is very stable, but WVO is very unstable and easily oxidizes. This is why "grease car" kits purge the system with diesel before shutting down. WMO users don't do this.

I would be more fearful of SVO than WMO. I run dilute WMO in my truck without any concern. I would not run SVO/WVO.

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Old December 31st, 2012, 11:59   #5
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Originally Posted by b4black View Post
The problem with WMO is its very high boiling point. Diesel fuel tops out at about 650°F, while WMO is well above that. The high boiling point molecules are what makes the deposits.

A genset is not a good indication of the practicality of WMO in a vehicle. They run at a constant (low) rpm. A diesel engine revs higher at times. The high rpms produce high temps which will help remove the deposits. In other words, the nature of a genset is much more deposit-prone than an engine in a vehicle.

SVO or WVO is very different than WMO. Both are viscous, which can be dealt with be diluting or heating. WMO is very stable, but WVO is very unstable and easily oxidizes. This is why "grease car" kits purge the system with diesel before shutting down. WMO users don't do this.

I would be more fearful of SVO than WMO. I run dilute WMO in my truck without any concern. I would not run SVO/WVO.

This is excellent feedback, so you yourself would rather run WMO than SVO? Now that is interesting and what you say does make sense about the stability, I am no petrochemist but I can understand a decent motor oil remaining more stable through a heat range etc than a fuel or veg oil so it protects and gives the same performance durability as a lubricant.

As I have said I know this definitely does work its just the long term effects it has on an engine I would be concerned with, eg. I would run a car that I knew I was gonna scrap at the end of the month on WMO after my first experience without hesitation but would be wary using it on a car I wanted to keep or care about, until I had proved there were no adverse effects.

Another thing I did a while back:

My uncle had heard that I was experimenting with WVO, he bought 7, 20 litre cans of WVO he had acquired from a local indian restaurant which he had planned to convert into biodiesel but didnt have the time, he asked me if I had wanted them before getting rid, to which I aid "YES PLEASE"!

Anyway, this stuff was raw unfiltered junk that had sat in a the rear yard of a restaurant for a while, it had white conjealed fat on top and a bit of water mixed in, it was rank stuff, cloudy brown with bits etc, I at the time was running an old Laguna 2.2 TD which was also on its last legs, and in a mad moment emptied 40 litres of this crud straight into the tank for a laugh. The car ran fine for miles and miles, it absolutely reeked like a BBQ but it worked all the same, then it started playing up, hard to start, smoke etc, then it wouldnt start at all, I had a spare diesel filter, so whipped the old one off and found it full of white gunk, I shook the old filter out and just tried it back on, Voila! It ran again for another 2 weeks.

What Iam saying is that if I had just changed the filter over it would have lasted for a good while, if I had filtered the junk in the first place I would of had to change the filter anyway, and apart from the smell out the back, the car ran even smoother and quieter on wvo than road fuel and was no different.

If I was going to put WVO in a car I would give it a good filtering and thats about it, I wouldnt personally sod about with caustic soda etc trying to make pure clean bio, I would rather buy a pack of 10 fuel filters trade from a local trader and change as and when needed as surley, surely the fuel filter would strain any damaging particles whether fat, metal or fag ends from your chosen brew?????

BTW: As I stated I have used SVO straight off the shelf many times when its been cheaper than road fuel and it works fine as far as iam concerned, it seems though in the last few years the supermarkets have got wise to this and the price of cheap veg oil has gone up, but when I find it cheaper I ALWAYS buy it, the only downside, if it is one is that your car smells like a doughnut fryer LOL

Last edited by scr8pdo; December 31st, 2012 at 12:26.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 13:00   #6
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At 1.42 pounds for a liter for DERV you are currently at the equivalent of $8.70 per US gallon, but even at, that I think 'free' used motor oil is too expensive for use as fuel.
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Old December 31st, 2012, 14:46   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lug_Nut View Post
At 1.42 pounds for a liter for DERV you are currently at the equivalent of $8.70 per US gallon, but even at, that I think 'free' used motor oil is too expensive for use as fuel.
please explain this statement?
I have no experience with WMO(or wvo for that matter) but I can get ahold of a lot of wmo from a friends shop and I'd like to run it in my 6.9 idi ford. maybe my b4 passat too but seems more risky and the payout is a lot lower.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 09:19   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic reducer View Post
please explain this statement?
I have no experience with WMO(or wvo for that matter) but I can get ahold of a lot of wmo from a friends shop and I'd like to run it in my 6.9 idi ford. maybe my b4 passat too but seems more risky and the payout is a lot lower.
DERV = Diesel Engine Road Vehicle. In many places fuel is purchased per liter, so GBP 1.42 per liter come out to USD 8.70. Using waste motor oil as fuel is a poor economic choice. While the oil is free, the damage to the engine would outweigh the money saved by running wmo. Typical Cost/Benefit analysis.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 09:26   #9
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Idi fords like it. Mine has been running for years on 100% used diesel oil. This is Texas tho
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Old January 1st, 2013, 09:27   #10
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I think the injectors are like $25 a piece and a injection pump rebuild is $400.
I would not run it in a tdi.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 11:05   #11
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The economics can support this in the UK. At 8 bucks a gallon, you can burn like $9000 in fuel in 50k miles. If the engine lives 50k miles on 50/50 wmo/diesel blend, you saved $4500. Enough to buy a couple engines from a breaker. We just don't know how long a tdi will live on various blends. It could be as simple as cleaning deposits off injectors periodically, and maybe popping pistons out and cleaning above top ring groove. Turbo might gunk up on hot side too.

I'd say get a spare engine set aside, then try it. It could be the tdi will live just fine. Worst case a couple days to swap out motor. Best case $4500 in pocket.

Maybe find an old centrifuge from a ship breaker. Or make a filter rig that spins warmed oil through series of filters, last one being maybe 2mic.

I looked at distillation rigs, but those look either dangerous, complicated, expensive, needing full time operator or a combination of any of the above. Really not practical unless doing it on an industrial scale.
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Old January 1st, 2013, 11:28   #12
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... Enough to buy a couple engines from a breaker. ...
Or even enough to buy a running junker from eBay or car auction. Around £ 500-ish for a high mileage 10 to 12 year old VW or Skoda 1.9TDI with a recent MOT (annual safety/emissions test). Scrap it when the next MOT comes around if it needs too much work, and get another.
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Old April 9th, 2018, 22:13   #13
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I'm curious to know how this turned out. How have 1.9 PD engines done on running used filtered engine oil as fuel?
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Old April 10th, 2018, 13:16   #14
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I have seen the results of many different types of filtering/cleaning wmo and the centrifuge method seemed to get out particles than even a fine filter would not catch. There are many acid based compounds found in wmo and neutralizing them before using wmo as a fuel should be considered. I have read of guys that run wvo and and circulate baking soda in warmed oil to neutralize the fatty acids that create the concrete-like deposits in cylinders; I don't know if wmo would need such a treatment unless the wmo came from gasoline engines primarily.
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Old April 15th, 2018, 09:50   #15
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I run it in a ford IDI but not in my TDI

TDIs have very picky smoke maps and idle limits, they don't run very well on waste oil fuel for much the same reason as they don't run well on gasoline. The cetane is so low that you need to put in a crapload more fuel to get the same power with the same timing, electronic governors don't do this as they think you're loading down the engine in a very harsh way so they're programmed to stall out. Mechanical governors just happily chug along putting in the extra fuel.

Toss some big nasty injectors in it without a tune (or better, a tune set up for more timing advance but still the stock injectors) and it'll probably work a lot better.
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