2014 Jetta Sportwagen TDI & biodiesel

Kai

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Kailua, Hawaii
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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
Has anyone heard if VW is going to change in any way its stance on biodiesel for the introduction of the 2014 Jetta Sportwagen TDI? I've been in touch with VOA headquarters several times over the past few years and always their answer about bio has been the same: "Our engineers are working on it . . . nothing yet to report." A related question: does it make sense to wait for the 2014 Sportwagen (I'm not sure I like its boxy look in the artists' renderings) and just go ahead and get the best deal possible on a 2013? Thanks.
 

GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Re biodiesel - No one knows. You can rest assured that the allowed percentage of biodiesel is not going to be very high and certainly not over 20%, even if they change it, which no one knows if they will do.

As for the Golf wagon ... If historical patterns prove out, North American introduction will be a year after the European introduction, so it might not even be 2014 model year. No one knows this for sure, either.
 

turbocharged798

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99.5 black ALH Jetta;09 Gasser Jetta
I've been in touch with VOA headquarters several times over the past few years and always their answer about bio has been the same: "Our engineers are working on it . . . nothing yet to report." A
Classic VW move. Stall stall stall until the current series of CR engines are out of production and it will no longer be VW's problem. :mad:

There is a solution, its called a 5th injector. Its not rocket science.
 

Kai

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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
I would pay $1k to run B100. I'm ready today. I would buy the car and pay the extra. I've waited years, while keeping our aging '04 and '06 because they do run B100. Mahalo.
 

GoFaster

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2006 Jetta TDI
B100 compatibility is not going to happen. It's not a matter of cost. Meeting today's emission standards requires very tight control of the combustion process and one of the factors is that very fine atomization is required. The higher viscosity of B100 produced by the normal transesterification processes is not compatible with that.

The auto manufacturers and the refiners have been working on 2nd-generation biofuels, produced from any biomass using what is essentially Fischer-Tropsch synthesis. This process can be tailored to produce practically any hydrocarbon you want, but this process is not compatible with home-brewing.

First-generation biodiesel (produced by transesterification) is a technological dead-end when viewed at a societal level. It's physically impossible to produce enough of it to satisfy a high enough percentage of our total fuel demand - plants are too inefficient at producing the very specific oils required (and meanwhile, the remaining biomass that is not oil, cannot be used - but 2nd-generation biofuel systems CAN use it).

Consequently ... the auto industry is not interested in pursuing first-generation biodiesel (aside from tolerating the low-percentage blends seen today).
 

01greenjetta

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Georgetown, CA
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01 Jetta automatic
I would pay $1k to run B100. I'm ready today. I would buy the car and pay the extra. I've waited years, while keeping our aging '04 and '06 because they do run B100. Mahalo.
If you dump all that money you would pay for a 2014 into one of your older cars, you would have a very nice powerful, comfy B100 running machine. You would also stimulate your local economy by paying body/mechanic shops to do all the work for you.
 

tdi90hp

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Canuckland
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If you dump all that money you would pay for a 2014 into one of your older cars, you would have a very nice powerful, comfy B100 running machine. You would also stimulate your local economy by paying body/mechanic shops to do all the work for you.
and you would still have a 7-10 year old car without the latest advances in emissions, safety comfort, convenience and looks....nope. I agree with the stimulating the local economy part though and strongly agree that the re-using of old restaurant oil and unusable or extra soybean crops and other crops (as long as higher grades are used, filtered and lower levels of FFAs(free fatty acids) and that the process passes all the current ASTM standards and are done by professional Biodiesel manufacturers and not home brewing) is a positive thing for the economy and for our cars in a minimum useage kind of way. B100 wont happen cause 3/4 of NA would not be able to use it because of gelling issues but B5-B20 long term is the continued hallowed ground which combines higher lubrication and emissions performance with reasonably achievable growth of biodiesel ressources and local raw material....Why throw the stuff out in landfills or send it by the boat load to Africa?
 

turbocharged798

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and you would still have a 7-10 year old car without the latest advances in HPFP failures, turbo failures, DPF failures, diluted engine oil, iced up intercoolers, and piss poor fuel economy....nope. I agree with the stimulating the local economy part though and strongly agree that the re-using of old restaurant oil and unusable or extra soybean crops and other crops (as long as higher grades are used, filtered and lower levels of FFAs(free fatty acids) and that the process passes all the current ASTM standards and are done by professional Biodiesel manufacturers and not home brewing) is a positive thing for the economy and for our cars in a minimum useage kind of way. B100 wont happen cause 3/4 of NA would not be able to use it because of gelling issues but B5-B20 long term is the continued hallowed ground which combines higher lubrication and emissions performance with reasonably achievable growth of biodiesel ressources and local raw material....Why throw the stuff out in landfills or send it by the boat load to Africa?
Fixed it for you. :p
 

RNDDUDE

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Valencia Ca.
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2011 Jetta Sportwagen TDI
Two things....VW may allow higher bio levels in the near future, probably 20% maximum (100%? never) Also, it is my understanding that there will not be a 2014 JSW TDI based on the mark 7 platform, it will not happen until it is a 2015 model, as the sedan tooling and production will take precidence. IF there is a 2014 JSW TDI, it will undoubtidly be existing stocks of 2013 Mk6's titled as 2014's.
 

Lug_Nut

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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
What do the newest CR equipped cars have that was not also available in the last of the PD cars?
Emissions (total well-to-wheels emissions) are lower with a VE or PD TDI on high biodiesel percentages than on a CR with urea or post combustion injection running B5.
Safety items (ABS, T-C, ASR, airbags up the wazoo) aren't that much advanced from 2005 to 2013 are they?
Comfort? I think the older cars that allow headrest fore and aft adjustment are more comfortable than the fixed forward headrests of the current cars. OK, maybe they're safer in a rear end impact, but they're not safer when I get so fed up with the chin in the chest driving position that I take a sawz-all to the mounts.
Convenience? Yeah the trunk unlock when the doors unlock is nice, but the A3 and B4 had that. VW's just bringing back what they shouldn't have taken away.
Looks are subjective. The Golf is OK, the Jetta only so-so to me.
 

Kai

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Kailua, Hawaii
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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
Another issue is that you just can't get a Jetta TDI sedan any longer that offers the European road car experience. The new Jetta, as has been much discussed, has be de-contented with the removal of 4-wheel independent suspension and the base model Jetta doesn't even have disk brakes on all four wheels, a full instrument cluster, etc. Choices of interior colors have been restricted to only two: essentially white (cornsilk) and black, whereas before there were three choices: anthracite (not straight black), art gray, and pure beige. When I look at artist concepts of the 2014 Sportwagen, I see the same boxy shape as the new Jetta sedan--a kind of back to the 80s look--and I worry that the same de-contenting is going to happen to the wagon as well. Maybe not, if it's on a Golf platform. That vehicle VW seems to keep as a European car?
 

truman

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Based on the current trend, my suspicion is that we will get the Jetta wagon and not the Golf wagon. Wasn't the Alltrack concept Jetta based? I hope I'm wrong.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
Based on the current trend, my suspicion is that we will get the Jetta wagon and not the Golf wagon. Wasn't the Alltrack concept Jetta based? I hope I'm wrong.
What you Americans are currently getting as a Jetta wagon, is exactly the same car as what everywhere else in the world (including Canada) is getting as a Golf wagon. The only difference is the badge. The US position makes little sense from the technical viewpoint, because the car shares a lot more, including front-end styling and the suspension arrangement and most of the interior, with the Mk6 Golf than it does with the Mk6 Jetta sedan.

Whether this situation will be continued in the US market with the Mk7, or whether they'll just rename it to Golf wagon worldwide including the US ... is anybody's guess.

And it doesn't matter, because it's the same car, no matter what name gets put on it.

The Canadian-market trim levels (Trendline, Comfortline, Highline, Sportline, etc) are also in common with the rest of the world, as opposed to the US-market distincions, which appear to be copied from Ford ...
 

Lug_Nut

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idi: 1988 Bolens DGT1700H, the other oil burner: 1967 Saab Sonett II two stroke
It's my understanding that the wagon will continue (for a while) to be built on the mark6 design while the Golf will go to the Mark7
 

Kai

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Location
Kailua, Hawaii
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2004 Jetta TDI wagon manual; 2006 Jetta TDI sedan manual
B100 compatibility is not going to happen. It's not a matter of cost. Meeting today's emission standards requires very tight control of the combustion process and one of the factors is that very fine atomization is required. The higher viscosity of B100 produced by the normal transesterification processes is not compatible with that."
Our local biodiesel supplier has purchased both a new diesel CR VW TDI and a BMW 335D diesel and is running B100 in both of them. Their view is that these engines can run B100 successfully, and that it is only the emissions systems that cause problems. Earlier tests (reported on this site) of B100 in the VW "clean diesel" showed rise in oil level and oil dilution. Our bio supplier doesn't deny that, but says changing oil every 3,000 miles should help.
B20 has been run successfully in the "clean diesel" without the need of these more frequent oil changes (also reported on this site).
 

GoFaster

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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
How long has that supplier been using B100? And are the emission control systems intact??

There's no question that the issue is not the engine, it's the emission control system. But you can't (legally) have the engine without the emission control system, so this is (legally) only of semantic interest.

Others have attempted to run the common-rail engines on B100 (we are talking complete, LEGAL, engines complete with all emission controls intact here). It works ... for a little while, then problems develop. Changing the engine oil frequently doesn't stop the DPF from clogging.
 

GoFaster

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Location
Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
How long has that supplier been using B100? And are the emission control systems intact??

There's no question that the issue is not the engine, it's the emission control system. But you can't (legally) have the engine without the emission control system, so this is (legally) only of semantic interest.

Others have attempted to run the common-rail engines on B100 (we are talking complete, LEGAL, engines complete with all emission controls intact here). It works ... for a little while, then problems develop. Changing the engine oil frequently doesn't stop the DPF from clogging.
 

RI_TDI

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Providence RI
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'05 B5.5v, '89 DOKA Syncro
Biodiesel supply is limited. Does it really make a difference if 5% of diesel drivers burn B100 vs. 100% of diesel drivers burn B5, so long as it consumes the available supply of biodiesel? We can do the latter right now, and adjust as supply of biodiesel slowly expands.

And regards the $1k - are you speaking of a cost premium for running biodiesel? I am prepared to do that and have done so at various times in the past. right now though my b99 is about 20¢ cheaper than D2.

(price update - bought B99 for $3.699 today 12 Jan. Cheapest D2 around was $4.059)
 
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NAZ TDI

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now Kuna, Idaho
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2015 Jetta TDI DSG
If B100 is so great, why does the oil have to changed three times as often, and why does the particulate filter get clogged so quickly? Oil dilution is from unburned fuel getting past the rings into the crankcase, and a clogged DPF is from chunks of partially burned fuel going out the exhaust. Doesn't seem too efficient to me!
Not to mention what happens to the fuel on cold winter days.
 

RI_TDI

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'05 B5.5v, '89 DOKA Syncro
If B100 is so great, why does the oil have to changed three times as often, and why does the particulate filter get clogged so quickly? Oil dilution is from unburned fuel getting past the rings into the crankcase, and a clogged DPF is from chunks of partially burned fuel going out the exhaust. Doesn't seem too efficient to me!
Not to mention what happens to the fuel on cold winter days.
Are you speaking from experience or repeating stuff you have read in these forums? I have run my B5.5v for almost 150k with a 10k oil change interval with no known ill effect. All that time I have used B99 except in deepest winter when I blend down to approximately B70. I have always used professionally produced fuel tested to ASTM standards, never homebrew.

Regards 'efficiency' - at the moment using biodiesel is the more cost effective option, but its not always the case and its not why I do it anyway. I do it because I can operate my vehicle on fuel that is not only from renewable sources, but is derived from oils that have already served their primary commercial purpose so there is a recycling component as well.

The DPF issue is I believe a matter of engineering - the DPF system is designed specifically to capture and eliminate particulates from ULSD. Parameters like the the nozzle size and injection rate of fuel and the duration of the filter clearing cycle are not proper to eliminate residues of biodiesel - and the systems throw a code when the standard cycles fail to produce the expected temperatures. Needless to say its not very good at eliminating accumulated particles and hence the 'clogging'. The DPF _could_ be designed to work with Biodiesel, but it isn't.

DPF is not an issue for my B5.5 but it sure is for my NMS and I have reluctantly decided to not use biodiesel in that vehicle (even B5, which is allowed) unless and until some solutions to the DPF problem emerge.
 

Lightflyer1

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Round Rock, Texas
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2015 Beetle tdi dsg
If B100 is so great, why does the oil have to changed three times as often, and why does the particulate filter get clogged so quickly? Oil dilution is from unburned fuel getting past the rings into the crankcase, and a clogged DPF is from chunks of partially burned fuel going out the exhaust. Doesn't seem too efficient to me!
Not to mention what happens to the fuel on cold winter days.
You have some reading to do. It has been explained multiple times already.
 
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