Jetta and Passat Wagon reliability

I'm debating whether or not I should make the leap to a TDI. Currently I have a Focus Wagon and em not impressed with the mileage. I'm also doing a lot more driving than I thought I would be doing and by the time I have the car paid off I have my doubts that it will still be going.

I used to have a 2000 Jetta 2.0 and to be honest it was the worst car I have ever owned. It was in the shop at least 30 times in the 3 yrs I owned it. When it did work though I really liked the feel of it. It was solid, no rattles, and felt more expensive than it was. But because of the poor reliability I have cold feet about getting into another VW.

If I was to get one I would be looking at a 2004-2006 Jetta Wagon or Passat Wagon with a 5 spd. Have they gotten more reliable since 2000? Are the TDI's more reliable than the 2.0's? Is one model more reliable than the other? I'm leaning towards the Jetta Wagon because I've heard they get better mileage. Any other input you can provide would be very much appreciated.

shane_c said:

I used to have a 2000 Jetta 2.0 and to be honest it was the worst car I have ever owned. It was in the shop at least 30 times in the 3 yrs I owned it.

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You've addressed your own question In fact, VW has moved DOWN the list in the number of defects/problems, not up.

Welcome aboard!

I think you need to find a different shop.

oilhammer said:

I think you need to find a different shop.

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It only ever went to VW for servicing. The list included but wasn't limited to:
MAF (3 or 4 times), some sort of throttle body sensor, window regulators, glove box fell off, cup holder broke, it went through o2 sensors like crazy, alarm malfunctions, some bolt came off the wiper motor and they stopped working, etc.... there was a lot more but I can't remember it now since it was a few years ago. But the CEL was on so often I'm surprised it didn't burn out.

shane_c said:

It only ever went to VW for servicing. The list included but wasn't limited to:
MAF (3 or 4 times), some sort of throttle body sensor, window regulators, glove box fell off, cup holder broke, it went through o2 sensors like crazy, alarm malfunctions, etc.... there was a lot more but I can't remember it now since it was a few years ago. But the CEL was on so often I'm surprised it didn't burn out.

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Yep, you needed a different shop.

Actually, to put it all in perspective: your 2000 Jetta had the AEG engine, which was the first engine sold in the USA to have planar wide band lambda sensors (oxygen sensors to the lay person) and it also used another somewhat cutting edge technology, a hot-film MAF. Both technologies, just like anything cutting edge, were fragile. You must have been on the early learning curve for those, because most all of that stuff has been sorted out now and is no longer an issue. I service a LOT of AEG cars and they rarely have any issue with those items in any great quantity. The AEG did have an oil consumption problem as well. Mid-2001 brought the much improved AVH and AZG 2.0L engines. Drive-by-wire throttle, improved pistons/rings, improved exhaust system, improved OBD system, etc. So many improvements on VWs happen under the skin without anyone even noticing.

Window regs have been improved, cupholders, glovebox door, door latches, etc. have ALL been improved (most of that was improved starting in 2001 and continued through 2003).

2000 was still what I would consider a 'teething' year for the A4 platform Golfs and Jettas. So they did have a lot of those early on problems the later cars did not. Most 2002+ cars have proven to be much better, albeit not perfect. Your dealer was likely struggling with some of those issues before VW actually had them sorted out. I worked at a dealer then, I know all about those cars' problems. And the AEG equipped Jetta was the most common car they sold.

But with some newer upgraded bits, a close watch on the dipstick, and good PM, many of my customers with that same era car are still happily motoring along at 200k+ miles.

Thanks for the info!
So what are the issues with the 2004-2006 TDI's that I would likely face?

The truth is that VW has been at the very bottom (worst) of the JD Power Initial Quality and Reliability surveys for many years. VW has significant quality problems in both design and manufacturing.

They're neat cars, but if reliability is at the top of your list you should be looking at a Honda or Toyota, not VW.

shane_c said:

Thanks for the info!
So what are the issues with the 2004-2006 TDI's that I would likely face?

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Well, 2004 - 2006 covers two very different cars. You would need to be more specific. A4 or A5 platform?

It seems that A4 platforms have front wheelbearing issues. Some think that replacing them every 100kmiles is "normal". I'm not sure if that's normal or not; but it comes up often enough here that I'd toss that out there. It does cost several hundred to pay someone to change them.

Also, they are known to eat rear brakes, or at least alleged to -- but pad replacement (even with rotor replacment) is not that expensive, and relatively easy to do.

Are you looking for an automatic or a stickshift? Supposedly, these years got better transmissions on both fronts--but the DSG's do require frequent fluid changes, and the stickshift is still known to suffer DMF issues.

And lastly, '04-on brought in oil issues, on top of timing belt issues. Basically, both items need to be done "right": meaning, the right oils need to be used, and the timing belt needs to be changed properly (this is true for pre-04 also). I say this because, if you are looking at used, these issues should be kept in mind. The previous owner may not have been so kind to their vehicle.

Oh: I almost forgot: the Passat uses a different motor than Jetta, and has different issues (ones that I don't know about). The big difference (other than car size) is that Passats only came with automatics, which may or may not enter into your decision.

To clarify, your options are:

1) 2004-2005 Jetta sedan or wagon, 1.9L PD engine, 5spd manual or 5spd automatic

2) 2005.5-2006 Jetta sedan, 1.9L PD engine, 5spd manual or 6spd "automatic"

3) 2004-2005 Passat sedan or wagon, 2.0 PD engine, 5spd automatic

(listed in order of MPG, best to worst)

they also made new beetles and golf tdi's in those years but you mentioned jettas and passats specifically.

sorry, just realized you're in Canada...anyone know if this info is correct for our neighbors to the north?

csimo said:

The truth is that VW has been at the very bottom (worst) of the JD Power Initial Quality and Reliability surveys for many years. VW has significant quality problems in both design and manufacturing.

They're neat cars, but if reliability is at the top of your list you should be looking at a Honda or Toyota, not VW.

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Hehe, sadly that is not all true. But people seem to buy into it. I just got a pic yesterday on my phone, from my friend at Jay Wolfe Toyota, of one of the new chain V6 engines out of the car, with the caption "gotta love these new chain motors" .

They break too. Nobody is perfect.

Thanks for the replies everyone. My cold feet remain and I think I'll stay away from VW's. The mileage I'd get with a TDI is tempting but I don't think I want to revisit the questionable reliability again. It's frustrating though because I've spoken with 2 people I know and they own a '05 Golf TDI and the other a '06 Golf TDI and both have had zero issues. But then you hear all the horror stories. It seems if you get a good one you're lucky and if you get a bad one then it's plain awful. At this point I don't think I'm willing to take that chance again.

Well if the only reason you would be purchasing it was for fuel economy I can tell you right off you won't be happy.

Cheapskates seem to be attracted to TDIs, and are so often the worst matched people to own a German car. Oxymoron?

oilhammer said:

Well if the only reason you would be purchasing it was for fuel economy I can tell you right off you won't be happy.

Cheapskates seem to be attracted to TDIs, and are so often the worst matched people to own a German car. Oxymoron?

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For fuel economy, because the engine life is quite long, and because when my 2000 did work I liked the driving feel it had. Reliability is also big on my list.

shane_c said:

For fuel economy, because the engine life is quite long, and because when my 2000 did work I liked the driving feel it had. Reliability is also big on my list.

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Most VW gas engines, particularly the AVH and AZG 2.0L engines, will easily last just as long as a TDI (they will NOT however come close to the fuel economy).

As you stated, you liked your 2000 "when it was working". Well, I am here to tell you, like I posted above, most of the items you had break are a non-issue on later cars. The 2003 AVH/AZG/ALH/5 spd Jetta is a VERY good car. With proper care, they hold up quite well. Just a couple years to sort all the early stuff out and they are fine.

I think you would be better off with something else, but you may be missing out on what you really want. Proper care is key. I drive an 18 year old Jetta every day (has about 433k miles on it now) and it too was 'bottom of the barrel' for JD Power, Consumer Reports, or any other nonsense you could throw at it. Yet it has NEVER failed to start, NEVER broken down, NEVER left me stranded anywhere, and is still going on its 100% original drivetrain, save for the injection pump that was rebuilt at 375k miles. Car still looks and drives good, too. Again, proper care is key.

shane_c said:

It only ever went to VW for servicing.

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Didn't you ever suspect that the problems originated with the dealership, not the car?

I used to say that the VW dealership network was the worst. Now I hear that others are pretty bad too, but still... VW dealers are terrible. If you own a VW that is out of warranty, the only reason to go to a dealership is in an extreme emergency. Even then, you will probably regret it later.

TDIs do not have O2 sensors.

TornadoRed said:

TDIs do not have O2 sensors.

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The newer ones do.

oilhammer said:

The newer ones do.

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And they have a few pressure sensors in there to.

I am trying to help out a friend with a 2004 Jetta TDI wagon. Everything was fine until she had the second TB replacement done at an independent shop that didn't specialize in TDIs. Needless to say, not all the parts were replaced.

But now it's at a VW dealership and they are telling her it needs one or more new injectors. It misfires, sometimes, but after a restart sometimes it's idles and drives smoothly. I'm telling her to get her Jetta away from that dealership ASAP, but I need to locate somewhere else for her to take it, first.

I am thinking it might have a worn cam, after about 180k miles in this PD engine?

Hi,
I'm new to this forum. I just sold my '87 vanagon syncro and am now looking towards a newer VW that requires less maintenance and gets much better fuel economy. I was initially attracted to TDi, but the ones in my area (Seattle, WA) are few and seem to have a serious 35-40% cost premium over the equivalent gas engine model.
"Oilhammer" says the gas engine models can be as durable (and reliable?) as a tdi--you sound like a professional mechanic, can you elaborate on this?
I am currently looking at a local '96 Passat TDi Wagon w/200K on the clock and a bunch of late 90's gas Golfs's. Trying to balance cost with fuel economy. Anyway I'd appreciate any buying advice. It seems though you can buy an awful lot of gas Golf for a TDi.

shane_c said:

I used to have a 2000 Jetta 2.0 and to be honest it was the worst car I have ever owned. It was in the shop at least 30 times in the 3 yrs I owned it. When it did work though I really liked the feel of it. It was solid, no rattles, and felt more expensive than it was. But because of the poor reliability I have cold feet about getting into another VW.

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You've pretty much asked and answered your own question.

I know how you feel though, The only thing that keeps my car's maintenance history from going on and in is the floor. And yet, the longer I own it, the less I detest it. Still, my next car is a Honda--not that I'll ever be able to buy another car.

shane_c said:

My cold feet remain and I think I'll stay away from VW's. At this point I don't think I'm willing to take that chance again.

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You have chosen wisely.

oilhammer said:

Well if the only reason you would be purchasing it was for fuel economy I can tell you right off you won't be happy.

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I WHOEHEARTEDLY second that with my own experience.

oilhammer said:

Cheapskates seem to be attracted to TDIs, and are so often the worst matched people to own a German car. Oxymoron?

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Yes, forgive us for wanting the impossible: low purchase price, cheap operation costs, durability & reliability. Oh wait, I forgot about Honda and Toyota.

Yes, forgive us, OH, for we just don't have the money to pour into a car like water. Us sorry cheapskates who just want to get to work on time everyday.

Yep, I get to work on time every day, have for the 18 years I have driven ONE VW.

You know you really should not work on your own car, Flak. Please, do me and the rest of the world a favor AND BUY A TOYOTA ALREADY!!!! You think they are so great, PLEASE, TRADE YOUR JETTA FOR ONE NOW!!! Rather than throw money into yours (you really NEEDED those Konis, huh?) and then whine about it...gosh you are like a male version of Nancy Carigan.

In fact, I HAVE THREE OF THEM, I WILL GIVE YOU ALL THREE IF YOU JUST GO AWAY!!!!

To the above Vanagon owner (I have one of those, too ) the 2.0L gas engine I mentioned is a very good engine. Simpler than the TDI, uses the same oil and PM intervals, just a couple different items needing attention.

They will not however be as frugal on fuel. Figure 20 to 30 MPGs (they use regular gasoline, unlike most other gas VW models). The 2.0L is not really 'good' at anything, not especially powerful, not especially quiet, not especially frugal, not especially refined, but it is one of the simplest engines out there, very sturdy, very unstressed, and they are not very troublesome at all. The AEG engines, in the earlier A4 cars as I mentioned above had some teething problems. But even by now most of those items will have been sorted out.

Best thing is, the purchase price is signifigantly less than a TDI, so if you are not driving 100+ miles a day like I do it may be a better buy.

...and yes, I am a professional. And I work on broken Toyotas and Hondas all the time too. I have a dead Honda automatic transmission from a 70k mile 2002 Accord sitting at my feet now. But they never break. Yeah, right.

I really, really wish that people would stop bashing VW quality. Many, if not most, of the problems people experience with VWs are the fault of the dealers or the owners. The dealers screw the customers and do shoddy work to the point where we're forced to create our own network of competent mechanics. This is the fault of the dealers, not VW.

Many of the owners are people who try to drive, use and maintain them in a manner which they were not designed. Germans aren't concerned with 0-60 times and stoplight drag races. High speed handling is the priority. TDI's in particular are designed with high fuel efficiency in mind, not racing. Sure, they are fun to drive fast, but don't complain if they break. My car is a perfect example. I drive it within the law (not too fast, not too slow), and do maintenance by the book, as VW intended. It's been the most reliable car I've ever owned, it's never stranded me, and is still going strong.

As for maintenance, permit me an analogy. VWs are like a fine dinner whereas Hondas and Toyotas are like McDonalds. If you're hungry and lazy, you pull into a Micky-D's and get filled up. Quick and easy. If you want a quality dinner it takes a little more effort, but it's worth it. You have to time everything to come out right, you have to add the correct spices for the best taste, wash it down with the proper fluids (a fine wine), and you eat it slowly and enjoy the experience. Of course, it also helps if you have a chef who really knows what he's doing too.

Sure, McDonalds is quicker and will do the job of filling you up, but it's not as satisfying in the end.

oilhammer said:

(snip) I think you would be better off with something else, but you may be missing out on what you really want. Proper care is key. I drive an 18 year old Jetta every day (has about 433k miles on it now) and it too was 'bottom of the barrel' for JD Power, Consumer Reports, or any other nonsense you could throw at it. Yet it has NEVER failed to start, NEVER broken down, NEVER left me stranded anywhere, and is still going on its 100% original drivetrain, save for the injection pump that was rebuilt at 375k miles. Car still looks and drives good, too. Again, proper care is key.

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__. Yes, "proper care". But OP is talking about buying a 4-5-6 year old car (and one with a PD engine). I can only talk from my own experience; I bought an '02 sedan new -- my first TDI and I had to learn to maintain it and care for it. Nobody else touched that car except to put new window regulators in it until a "guru" did the timing belt. In 130K, it was close to perfect. I got nearly 57 MPG average, got almost 90K on the OEM set of tires; only thing it ever needed was a couple of glow plugs in 130K miles and after I figured out contact cleaner and anti-corrosion stuff, no more of that. That car was my dream car.

__. When my perfect car was totalled by a drunk, I bought a used car, an '03 wagon. It had been leased and *hadn't* had good maintenance. It looked as if the cabin filter had never been changed; the heater/AC blower fan burned out before I got it home. The front end had been bumped and not reassembled in line (the fact that there were hex-head and Torx screws mixed together holding the radiator bracket in should have been a clue); one day, I closed the hood and the latch jammed -- couldn't be opened without a hacksaw. The glow plugs had never had any maintenance, had to have a new set of plugs and harness to solve recurring plug CEL's. It had to have an injection pump rebuild at about 165K to solve bad IQ instability - when that was done, it was clear that it had been running badly since I got it (lots of wear in the high-pressure side -- the result of bad fuel/no maintenance/poor filters/late filter changes??? I dunno but my '02 was never like that.) Somebody had sprayed Armor-All into the turn signal switch - that ended up with the "phantom clicking" and a new turn signal switch. Other things, I'm not so sure are "care and maintenance". At about 150K, the clutch pressure spring was done for; the DMF was fine and the friction plate was OK but I went to a VR6/G60 clutch. And the alternator pulley failed.

__. Now, the car seems to be fine. I have had Michelins on it for 40K and they're not half worn. Just did the front brakes at almost 180K, they should be good for many miles/ rears are good. The clutch is perfect; engine runs like a top and is getting really good mileage. But I think that the first car I had shows that I can keep one of these things in good shape; trying to get one that had been neglected back into good condition drove me crazy. And, yes, the second car always started, but did leave me stranded on the side of the road and cost me a ride home in a tow truck.

__. But I love this wagon -- I actually loved it when it was giving me all the troubles and I love it much more now. I wouldn't sell it for less than $50K (and of course nobody would pay me that but that's fine with me because I intend to keep it). Unless there are more drunks around, I want to be here in 11 years saying "I drive an 18 year old VW and it never gives me any trouble". But making up for 110K miles of "lease maintenance" was pure hell -- and that was with a car that was only 3 - 3 1/2 years old. If this guy is dependent on a VW shop and is looking to buy a car that's 5-6 years old, I think it's a very good chance that he'd be looking straight at a world of hurt. You were wise to tell him that it doesn't look like a good fit.

oilhammer said:

You know you really should not work on your own car, Flak.

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Well, if you're volunteering to work on it for free, then you've got the job with my many thanks. Otherwise, that is literally my only option. But I agree with you, I don't want to work on it.

oilhammer said:

Please, do me and the rest of the world a favor AND BUY A TOYOTA ALREADY!!!! You think they are so great, PLEASE, TRADE YOUR JETTA FOR ONE NOW!!!

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Well that's more of an issue of me and my bad credit, and me not wanting a car payment again. (remember? I'ma cheapskate? here are a lot of us out there.) But you know, now that it's paid for...well what does JasonP say about that? I AM a loyal VW owner.

oilhammer said:

Rather than throw money into yours (you really NEEDED those Konis, huh?)

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Well, I did choose to buy quality parts that have a good reputation, at least in here. When I DO have to buy parts for this, I don't go cheap; why would I want to do the work all over again a year from now or in 50k miles? I rather thought that you would respect that.

oilhammer said:

gosh you are like a male version of Nancy Carigan

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I wish I had her legs; wait a minute, is she the one with the broken leg or was it that other one? I get them confused. =)

In fact, I HAVE THREE OF THEM, I WILL GIVE YOU ALL THREE IF YOU JUST GO AWAY!!!! [/quote]

If you've got about an 06 or so Corollla and will trade even, I'm interested. Otherwise, you can keep your car payment. (I'm a cheapskate, remember? LOL)

K5ING said:

Sure, McDonalds is quicker and will do the job of filling you up, but it's not as satisfying in the end.

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Oh, we buy cars to be satisfied? Well, there's my problem. I bought a car to drive. If i wanted a car to be satisfying and filling, I would have bought an ice cream truck.

Admit it, Flak, you like your car. You like us. You'd be lost without us.

I don't have any car payments either, and I am not complaining, not working on my cars constantly (well, except for my Toyota, but that is a different story), and am happy as a pig in mud. I only wish the same for you, and it appears you won't ever get that with a VW in your stable.

I do not work for free, I would imagine you do not either. If you do, good for you, go sign up for your Nobel Prize. They gave Al Gore one, didn't they?

But please, be realistic. Don't blame your poor mechanical skills fostered by some past personal problems of bad credit, poor failed marriage, or phases of the moon... blame the car! It is at fault!!!

Didn't you used to brag about taking your Jetta off road? How does that help its durability?

oilhammer said:

Admit it, Flak, you like your car. You like us. You'd be lost without us.

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Absolutely, to varying degrees. I would be totally lost without you, personally, and without tdiclub. I do wish I had gotten some advice like this before I bought, though: I sincerely would not have bought this car.

I do like the car. My best friend says I love the car. Like the OP says, when it's good it's good but when it bad its real bad. It's actually the first car that I ever truly owned. I've come to terms wit my pitiful 35 mpg and have come to accept it. I know that hte car is safer than a Civic. I appreciate that I can come here and find out whatever I want; there is NO Honda or Toyota equivalent to tdiclub. I honestly believe that the reason I've always disliked, and dissed, this car, is that it was such a huge disappointment for me. We had an A3 Jetta 2.slow that was terrific and I expected this to be the same. I truly did, and still do, expect to be able to drive this like any other car. There in lies my problem. (Now, any time now, Arniedog will come along and post that yoda photo from failblog, lol)

oilhammer said:

I only wish the same for you, and it appears you won't ever get that with a VW in your stable.

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You know what's funny? I really would like to have a little diesel rabbit pick up, too. LOL Glutten.

oilhammer said:

I do not work for free, I would imagine you do not either. If you do, good for you, go sign up for your Nobel Prize. They gave Al Gore one, didn't they?

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I would assert that Al Gore "earned" his peace prize but w'l avoid that if we can. I don't work for free (almst but not quite) nor do I allow others to work for me for free. You forgot that I was born into a strongly union famlly.

PS: I've spent $965 in parts this month, LOL. It's just that time for this (or most any) car.