Is it the clutch... or syncronizers?

Okay, here's my issue:


2000 ALH Jetta, M/T, 5-speed manual. Bought it about a year ago, at 290,000.
At the time, the shifting was fine below 2k RPM, and the seller stated that his mechanic 'swore that there's nothing wrong with the clutch'. Just letting the RPM's drop before shifting prevented rough shifting that it was dealing with.


Sitting in 1st with clutch depressed (at red light) I could hear a faint clicking sound (possibly the fingers in the pressure plate?)



Since then I tried GL-5 O'Reilly's 75w90 gear oil (wrong stuff, I don't think they know much about german diesels), then realized my error and put VW G60 in. No major improvements occurred either time, although draining the O'R's fluid revealed what looked like pulverized brass floating on top.


1 year and 21k miles down the road...
Shifting is getting harder. Shifting into 5th used to be easiest, now it needs the RPM's to drop. Going into 3rd, it will grind sometimes regardless. It takes a lot of fidgeting to get it into 1st when stopped at a red light. And when the clutch is depressed, stopped in 1st, I can feel the pedals (and maybe the whole car) vibrating. If it's in Neutral, this vibration goes away. It also grinds when shifting into Reverse from a stop.


Any thoughts? I'm still a newbie at most of this, so please bear with me. Thanks in advance.


P.S. Would noting differences in shifting depending on the car's angle (eg uphill or down) be any help in diagnosing this?

I’m no expert on Volkswagens. But through the years of driving manuals and replacing various parts, I would bet the grinding could be a weak synchro. However not going into gear is another problem. Not going into gear shows the synchros are doing their job. It sounds like a pilot bearing. Honestly, these cars might not even have one; Iv never personally taken one off of an engine. But Iv never seen a manual transmission without a pilot bearing. I experienced a pilot bearing fail once in a dodge 3500. (I know it’s a completely different vehicle but the concept should be the same) If the pilot bearing fails it will continue to spin the transmission input shaft (with a small amount of torque) even when the clutch is pressed to the floor. This makes it hard for the synchros to make the input shaft spin at the required rpm for a specific gear. It’s essentially like trying to drive with the clutch in the very light part of the friction zone. Again. I’m a newbie to vw. But that’s my 2 cent and I hope it helps.
Anyone know if there’s a way to lube the pilot bearing without pulling the trans? If possible it would be worth a shot.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sounds like the clutch is not quite fully disengaging. Worn pivot "button" and/or arm that pushes against the pressure plate (if the slave cylinder is doing its job).
Also, disconnect the shift cables and check out the movement of the shift tower and bushings. Some/most of these older cars now that haven't had some clean-up and refurbishment on the shift tower get pretty rough.

If someone ran GL5 in that gearbox you're in for a set of synchros....

Sounds like a bad throw out bearing to me, or air in the clutch cylinder. Could be a bent fork for the throw out bearing. I’d start by bleeding the clutch system; if that doesn’t help then maybe a slave cylinder. If not you’re probably gonna have to pull the tranny.

Genesis said:

If someone ran GL5 in that gearbox you're in for a set of synchros....

Click to expand...

Also something not right with the clutch.

Ok, I JUST put a new Single Mass Flywheel in my 01. A little history first...

3 years ago, I had the clicking at idle, or clicking when clutch pedal depressed. Was slowly harder to get in and out of gears without a grinding sound. Then it happened, something "popped" and I had no control over the clutch.

Ended up being the throw out bearing. I took it all apart and found the throw out bearing was in pieces. Put a used clutch\bearing\fork from a scrap car with 100k less miles than mine, and continued to drive it.

Fast foward 3 years, I'm getting some clicking again in the pedal and I can feel it, hear it....again hard to get into gears, especially reverse, would grind almost every time.

Letting in and out of the clutch pedal, pedal untouched would click and sound pretty bad, pedal pressed actually quieted the noise but I could feel it lumping in the pedal with the engine rpm.

Orderd a whole new clutch kit from IDparts (Single Mass Conversion Kit)

Took it apart and the problem this time was the Duel Mass Flywheel had broken...it was twisted together and the bolt holes were no longer aligned with the bolts on the other piece of the flywheel.

I didn't see anything broken but I guess it obviously was as they are suppose to line up. MY assumption was the known "failure of duel mass flywheel"

Replaced it all with the new stuff, and its great now, INCLUDING the gears grinding when shifting.

TL;DR

Flywheel\pressure plate\clutch parts all fail at some point - I've had failed throw out bearing and failed flywheel both exhibit the same symptoms.

My recommendation would be to just replace everything in there every time you take it apart...same amount of work really and you'll know its all new. I'm speaking in terms of flywheel\clutch\pressure plate\bearing\fork. If you have to replace any of those, just replace them all. Its not worth just doing 1 piece.

In addition to good comments above.

Clutch has no clue what gear you are selecting.

It's job in this concern is Turn Input shaft or Not to Turn Input shaft. And you get to decide turn or don't turn with the clutch pedal.

At higher mileage clutch situations crud builds up on the splines, dust, rust etc and that can be enough to cause the disc to stick on the shaft and continue turning the shaft when you gave the order to Not Turn.

GCBUG00 said:

In addition to good comments above.

Clutch has no clue what gear you are selecting.

It's job in this concern is Turn Input shaft or Not to Turn Input shaft. And you get to decide turn or don't turn with the clutch pedal.

At higher mileage clutch situations crud builds up on the splines, dust, rust etc and that can be enough to cause the disc to stick on the shaft and continue turning the shaft when you gave the order to Not Turn.

Click to expand...

As could a failing pilot bearing, correct?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

No pilot bearing.

I suspect the dual mass flywheel failed some time ago in this car, making shifting difficult. And the lack of complete clutch release when shifting may have damaged the transmission. My son had a faulty clutch in his '00 Golf, and it managed to kill the transmission in a few thousand miles. Perhaps the OP will get lucky and a new clutch and flywheel will fix the problem, but maybe not. These transmissions are durable, but they don't respond well to an incorrectly functioning clutch, especially over tens of thousands of miles.

Thanks for the advice guys. Looks like I've got my work cut out for me. I'll replace the clutch components and throw out bearing.


Cheers

Are you doing it yourself? Good luck!

Off the top of my head, you'll need:

18mm
16mm
13mm
A tripled Square set (for removing axel bolts and flywheel bolts) You can find this at oreily or the like, they are in a 4 pack of 4 sizes, you'll need 2 of the sizes.

You will also need a 12 point 9mm socket for the pressure plate bolts. Believe me, nothing else works on them, get the right tool and you'll be so happy when the time comes.

I think you can do just about the entire job with those 6 sizes, and have them in an assortment of 3\8 and 1\2" sockets with extensions.

Clutch alignment tool is cheap and helpful..again, you'll be glad you spent the $5 when you are on your back trying to get the damn thing lined up. I may have used a random sized deep socket that was pretty darn close the very first time I did this years ago, but tool really helps and I used on my 2nd and 3rd times doing this.

Also, a flywheel tool will help, or a flywheel turning tool with a handle. I ended up just wedging two screwdrivers locked against part of the car...it worked but it was a pita.

Also at least 2 jacks, jack stands (you will need the driver side wheel off to access the axle bolts and driver side motor mount the easiest).

Two jacks are 1 for the motor and 1 for the trans as you lower\raise them together (but separately) to removal and install of the trans. It's the most annoying part of the whole process IMO.


Again, good luck!

Sorry to bump this, but I'm literally 85% done and hit a wall. So maybe only 64%. Whatever.


Anyhow, YES the throw-out bearing had fallen apart (4 different pieces, one round part was in two halves), the pressure plate was missing a finger.


I put in a new flywheel, clutch disk, pressure plate, throwout bearing, fork, and that seal thingy on the tranny spline side.



So after fighting with it all day, I bolted the tranny back onto the mounts but then I realized the passenger side drive flange hadn't been put back in. And I wasn't able to fully remove it as the manual requested until the tranny had been unbolted. So I have to somehow get the CV joint out of the way to slide it in. Or buy some new stretch bolts and go back to 64%.


Is there any way to get the drive flange back in without unseating the transaxle or removing the CV joint from the wheel hub? Or am I beating a dead horse?


Thanks

Pull the turbo heat shield off and wire the shaft up high enough to clear. Bolt the flange on. It’s a tight one but can be done.

I believe all the OEM pressure plates have the "missing" finger from new.
Making progress!

Well, I finally got that CV joint back in, and had to replace the ball joint 'cause I accidentally unbolted it without thinking. Hopefully my alignment isn't too far off. I got it back on the road today, but it still grinds shifting into reverse occasionally, usually when backing into the driveway* (not so much if I shift from a stop).
I guess the answer to the thread is BOTH.


#ThatsAllICanTakeForOneDay


Elsewise, the clutch is significantly better. No vibrations sitting in first, no clicking noise. It almost feels like an automatic, getting used to a fresh disk.


Thanks for the help.

*Update: This is actually normal. The reverse gear is a sliding gear rather than a synchronized collar shift. Sliding gears cannot be shifted while moving.

Entire tractor transmissions used sliding gears exclusively long ago. They are cheap and strong but cannot be shifted while moving.

Did you replace the gear oil? If not put in some Pennzoil or GM Synchromesh. That will help the grinding, I bet.

Engine running. Clutch pedal normal on floorboard position. Select 1st gear. Slowly bring the clutch pedal up. Carefully note the initial engagement of the clutch and vehicle movement.

Q. How far up from the floorboard before the car starts to move?

Looking for an actual dimension estimate of upward pedal travel before engagement.

GCBUG00 said:

Q. How far up from the floorboard before the car starts to move?

Looking for an actual dimension estimate of upward pedal travel before engagement.

Click to expand...

I’ve been wondering this, I can only reference mine and I’d guess 3/4 upward travel before engagement.

Pedal travel is going to depend on the clutch installed in the car and how much wear it has. Single mass kits tend to engage with the pedal closer to the floor than dual mass kits. And the engagement point on most clutches will get higher from the floor as they wear. Some clutches (LUKs, for example) are self-adjusting, so pedal height on engagement doesn't change during the clutch's life.

The biggest reason I posed this question goes back to is it clutch or syncros. I think a new clutch was installed.

3/4 upward travel before engagement. Is that total pedal travel or 3/4" or ?

The single biggest pitfall in clutch work is getting all the air out and that has a huge impact on clutch release, engagement point and even pedal effort.

Gary

Great to know. 3/4 travel is from the floor when letting off the clutch to engage a gear. So I have 1/4 travel left until the games begin!

If your clutch is engaging that high it's not long for this world. New clutches engage very close to the floor, typically, and the engagement point moves up as they wear.