FYI: DPF regen info from my '09 TDI

Plus 3 Golfer · Jul 15, 2011

2009 Jetta
49,800 miles
Oil Ash Volume: 39 ml
Overall average mpg = 42.0

The number that appears to be relevant is the Oil Ash Volume. The question is what is the maximum ash volume before the DFP needs replaced / cleaned. Also, one's overall mpg (gallons of fuel burned) may be an indication of the rate of ash accumulation and thus can be used to extrapolate the life of the DPF given one's expected mpg.

So, my rate of ash accumulation would be 39ml / (49800 miles / 42 mpg) = 0.033 ml / gallon.

MacBuckeye's rate is around 0.039 ml / gallon.
48 / (47000 / 38) = 0.039 ml / gallon or
60 / (58000 / 38) = 0.039 ml / gallon.

Scenic Driver · Jul 15, 2011

MacBuckeye said:
Scenic- Thanks for posting your info.

No problem, I never saw this thread before now. I always scan for codes after doing maintenance so I can make a point of checking this as well.

MacBuckeye · Jul 15, 2011

Plus 3 Golfer said:
2009 Jetta
49,800 miles
Oil Ash Volume: 39 ml
Overall average mpg = 42.0

The number that appears to be relevant is the Oil Ash Volume. The question is what is the maximum ash volume before the DFP needs replaced / cleaned. Also, one's overall mpg (gallons of fuel burned) may be an indication of the rate of ash accumulation and thus can be used to extrapolate the life of the DPF given one's expected mpg.

So, my rate of ash accumulation would be 39ml / (49800 miles / 42 mpg) = 0.033 ml / gallon.

MacBuckeye's rate is around 0.039 ml / gallon.
48 / (47000 / 38) = 0.039 ml / gallon or
60 / (58000 / 38) = 0.039 ml / gallon.

Plus 3- That's an interesting add-on you bring up. I also think # of highway miles vs. city miles has an impact due to the frequency of regens. I'll also throw out the use of additives as a possible factor. Anyway, I'll create a spreadsheet and post to a new thread dedicated to tracking this info. Similar to the fuel mileage thread.

Plus 3 Golfer · Jul 15, 2011

MacBuckeye said:
Plus 3- That's an interesting add-on you bring up. I also think # of highway miles vs. city miles has an impact due to the frequency of regens. I'll also throw out the use of additives as a possible factor. Anyway, I'll create a spreadsheet and post to a new thread dedicated to tracking this info. Similar to the fuel mileage thread.

I agree that those factors would affect the rate of ash accumulation. But those would be difficult to gather info on and analyze. Most people keep track of mileage data which should take into account virtually all of the other factors like city vs highway, short trips vs long trips, driving style, number of regens, and so forth. I believe that gallons of fuel used over a given number of miles driven would be the primary determinant in accumulation of ash and expected life of the DPF.

With enough data we should be able to see if there is a strong correlation between ash volume and fuel economy. I anxiously await your thread.

MacBuckeye · Jul 15, 2011

It's up!

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=324067

I was thinking.... engine oil type could also play into this. Is Castrol's LL03 better (lower ash) than Mobile 1 ESP ? I'm also curious to know if the oil ash builds up faster when the car can't get enough regens. Driving style... those constant "Italian tune-ups" vs. "Sunday drives with Uncle Earl". Like you said, some of these misc. factors are impossible to track, but I might include oil type.

Plus 3 Golfer · Jul 15, 2011

Unless there is considerable blow by, I doubt engine oil is a factor. I recall reading a paper on testing DPFs a while back where the authors were talking about trucks burning 3 quarts of oil every 10k miles. IIRC, there was little difference in soot /ash accumulation from the oil.

Jack Frost · Jul 19, 2011

I would think that most of the ash left in a DPF comes from the burnoff of the soot that had accumulated. If so, then it is possible that if one's driving style is such that a lot of soot is emitted by the engine (and captured by the DPF), then a "sooty" driving style will clog the DPF sooner.

thomasrmmr · Sep 13, 2011

thomasrmmr

joetdi said:
For the amount of time that the regeneration process lasts, the extra fuel used will be quite small. Joe

hi i beleive if your driving with hot engine keeping the revs above 1800 to 2000 it doesnt need to regen the temps in the exhaust will automatically reburn the carbon n nox inside the cat, without the extra fuel it mostly regens when you doing a lot of idling or just above, doesnt make enough heat energy to start the burn in the cat !also your engines burn a heck of a lot cooler in the cooler winter temps so you need to drive it a little harder keep the revs up a couple hundred more !to make the necasary heat to burn without the regen s extra fuel !

Jack Frost · Sep 14, 2011

thomasrmmr said:
hi i beleive if your driving with hot engine keeping the revs above 1800 to 2000 it doesnt need to regen the temps in the exhaust will automatically reburn the carbon n nox inside the cat, without the extra fuel it mostly regens when you doing a lot of idling or just above, doesnt make enough heat energy to start the burn in the cat !also your engines burn a heck of a lot cooler in the cooler winter temps so you need to drive it a little harder keep the revs up a couple hundred more !to make the necasary heat to burn without the regen s extra fuel !

There might be some truth in this, but I believe that an engine running under load will still need to use extra fuel to carry out a regen although not as much.

All that needs to be done for a regen is to heat the DPF up. How it does that does not matter. Once that trapped soot reaches a certain temperature, it will burn (turn into carbon dioxide) and leave behind a little bit of soot.

Some designs use electrcity to do that. Our cars dump raw fuel into the engine's cylinder after the power stroke. The raw fuel will then be pushed out and make its way to the DPF's catalyst where upon it will ignite and produce the required heat.

All that matters is that the DPF get heated up to (but no more than) a temperature where the soot will ignite and spontaneously burn. Therefore, if the car is idling or at least not under significant load, then it stands to reason that more fuel will be required to heat up the DPF. If the car is running under load, then more of the heat to do this is already there. However, I believe that there will always be some extra fuel burned under any circumstance because the amount of heat it takes to heat up the DPF is enormous and diesel exhaust is not that hot to begin with.

I have a squan II guage on my car and two of the engine parameters it displays is engine temperature and manifold pressure. This is useful because the engine temperature is always 90 degree C except when the car is carrying out a regen. Then the engine temperature shoots up to 94 and the manifold pressure goes up until its over.

Virtually all of my regens happen on the highway at a time that I would never of noticed if it were not for my temperture guage. The only way the engine could be that hot if it were using burning extra fuel. It is interesting that the few times that I have been idling, the idle speed is normal so I assume these are minor or scheduled regens rather than required regens.

whitedog · Dec 18, 2011

So nothing conclusive about cleaning the DPF yet?

I have been trying to gather information from truck shops regarding the DPF in our C5500s with the Duramax, and what I have heard is that the pressure delta and calculated soot load says nothing about if the DPF needs to be cleaned. I'm not saying this is true information, but it's what I have been hearing.

I would love to hear some evidence supporting this statement. The only thing I can think of would be if someone took some readings before sending in a DPF for cleaning, then took readings after the cleaning.

Any chance that someone out there has access to someone that could get this information?

And why couldn't the VW DPF be cleaned with the same machine as the big trucks?

JSWTDI09 · Dec 18, 2011

whitedog said:
And why couldn't the VW DPF be cleaned with the same machine as the big trucks?

I hope that someone figures out how to clean the VW DPFs before mine needs it. However, to answer your question above - the truck DPFs were designed to be cleaned, but I think that the VW DPFs were designed to be replaced. However, I'm no expert on this - so I hope I'm wrong.

Have Fun!

Don

suprnice · Jan 26, 2012

Great info, thanks!

SkiTraveler · Feb 16, 2012

Ok, I've been reading this thread until my eyes started blurring. I have a '09 JSW TDI. I have 88,000 miles on it with no problems. Check engine came on late last week. Dealer first reported I had a particulate filter clogged in the exhaust. Said he was checking on recall for a fix. Later, reported I needed to replace the catalytic converter at a cost of $3,900. Ultimately, dealer reset the computer and the check engine light is off. It hasn't turned back on, but I've only driven 5-6 miles.

This vehicle is typically driven 90 miles per day (2-45 mile trips) with long trips on the weekend. All maintenance has been done at recommended intervals.

It appears my DPS needs to be replaced or cleaned. We'll see if the check engine light comes back on tomorrow.

What are my options to fix this looming DPF failure? Also, what is a VCSD tool and where can one be obtained? I hate relying on the dealership for $115 computed Diagnosis's.

tcp_ip_dude · Feb 16, 2012

SkiTraveler said:
[snip..]

What are my options to fix this looming DPF failure? Also, what is a VCSD tool and where can one be obtained? I hate relying on the dealership for $115 computed Diagnosis's.

http://www.ross-tech.com/

MonsterTDI09 · Feb 17, 2012

SkiTraveler said:
Ok, I've been reading this thread until my eyes started blurring. I have a '09 JSW TDI. I have 88,000 miles on it with no problems. Check engine came on late last week. Dealer first reported I had a particulate filter clogged in the exhaust. Said he was checking on recall for a fix. Later, reported I needed to replace the catalytic converter at a cost of $3,900. Ultimately, dealer reset the computer and the check engine light is off. It hasn't turned back on, but I've only driven 5-6 miles.

This vehicle is typically driven 90 miles per day (2-45 mile trips) with long trips on the weekend. All maintenance has been done at recommended intervals.

It appears my DPS needs to be replaced or cleaned. We'll see if the check engine light comes back on tomorrow.

What are my options to fix this looming DPF failure? Also, what is a VCSD tool and where can one be obtained? I hate relying on the dealership for $115 computed Diagnosis's.

I check your records to make sure they put the right oil in your car.

You living in Denver I would check you turbo to make sure it not leaking oil on the exhaust side.In the higher elevation, the turbo tends to over speed.With the VCSD you can check your ash load in DPF.

Good luck Tom

Tarbe · Feb 19, 2012

I swear my regens are coming more frequently now....maybe I am just getting paranoid! I am going to start noting the mileage each time a regen occurs...assuming of course it doesn't happen in the middle of a highway run and I never notice it.

No word yet on what constitutes a full DPF? I fear my 108ml is starting to impact my regen frequency.

Tim

MonsterTDI09 · Feb 20, 2012

Tarbe said:
I swear my regens are coming more frequently now....maybe I am just getting paranoid! I am going to start noting the mileage each time a regen occurs...assuming of course it doesn't happen in the middle of a highway run and I never notice it.

No word yet on what constitutes a full DPF? I fear my 108ml is starting to impact my regen frequency.

Tim

Get VCDS it can tell you what your ash load is in the DPF.

SkiTraveler · Feb 20, 2012

JSWTDI09 said:
Yes, there are companies in Europe who do clean out DPFs. There are also companies in America that clean DPFs in big trucks. The problem is that here in North America, there are relatively few CR diesels with over 120k miles. Therefore, there has been little need for DPF cleaning (yet). This will undoubtedly change as these cars get older (more miles). I expect that DPF cleaning will become more common in a few years. Those owners who put on a lot of miles will be the first to drive this change and the rest of us will be the ones to benefit from their experience.

Have Fun!

Don

Have you located a company that will clean DPF for '09 JSW? I'm approaching 90,000 miles and check engine light went on at 88,000. It's currently off, but I'm anticipating it won't stay off for long. I can't imagine having to pay $4,000 to fix this DPF problem.

JSWTDI09 · Feb 20, 2012

SkiTraveler said:
Have you located a company that will clean DPF for '09 JSW? I'm approaching 90,000 miles and check engine light went on at 88,000. It's currently off, but I'm anticipating it won't stay off for long. I can't imagine having to pay $4,000 to fix this DPF problem.

I have not yet located such a company. Have you scanned your car with VCDS to read the fault codes? If you had a CEL, then you have stored fault codes. It might be worth finding out what caused the CEL rather than just assuming it was the DPF.

Have Fun!

Don

Tarbe · Feb 20, 2012

MonsterTDI09 said:
Get VCDS it can tell you what your ash load is in the DPF.

I said in my post that I have 108ml....the post you quoted.

MonsterTDI09 · Feb 20, 2012

I miss that

Ok the max load count is 45 grams for the PDF.Now if have PDF and glow plug indicator light are on.When you see this the ECM locks out regen's to protect the DPF,this happens at 40 grams.VCDS is need to a manuel regen at this time.

whitedog · Feb 20, 2012

Tarbe said:
I said in my post that I have 108ml....the post you quoted.

I read that and had no idea what 108ml meant, so I just passed it over as some kind of code for a performance mod. <shrug>

Tarbe · Feb 20, 2012

whitedog said:
I read that and had no idea what 108ml meant, so I just passed it over as some kind of code for a performance mod. <shrug>

Sorry, I made a bad assumption that everyone in this thread would also be familiar with this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=324067

SkiTraveler · Feb 20, 2012

JSWTDI09 said:
I have not yet located such a company. Have you scanned your car with VCDS to read the fault codes? If you had a CEL, then you have stored fault codes. It might be worth finding out what caused the CEL rather than just assuming it was the DPF.

Have Fun!

Don

No I have not scanned with VCDS. Just took a look at Ross-Tech. Do you have a recommendation for the minimum sofeware package?

The dealership receipt says: Retrieved Faults. "Particulate Trap Effeciency Below Threshold". Found the particulate filter faulty. Gave customer estimate for repairs-cleared codes and light is off for now-Free Diag to customer.

I had the car in for three items: 1) Recall 23J9 diesel fuel injector recall. 2) Recall 23H1 ECM Software update. 3) Check Engine Light

Also, obtained two estimates to do the full timing belt repair: 1)$750 Dealership. 2) $1,000 local TDI mechanic. Both estimates are higher than what I had expected.

SkiTraveler · Feb 20, 2012

Tarbe said:
Sorry, I made a bad assumption that everyone in this thread would also be familiar with this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=324067

Thanks for the link. I'm on it!

whitedog · Feb 20, 2012

Tarbe said:
Sorry, I made a bad assumption that everyone in this thread would also be familiar with this thread: http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=324067

I am now.

SkiTraveler · Feb 20, 2012

Thank Tom!
My TDI mechanic been using the correct oil, however, the last time it was a different brand. I can't remember the brand but it had the 507 part number on the jug. Previous oil changes had been with the Pentosin Super Performance III. The first three oil changes had been with Castrol SLX Professional LL03.

I'm looking at the VCSD software options. Any recommendation?

JSWTDI09 · Feb 20, 2012

SkiTraveler said:
Also, obtained two estimates to do the full timing belt repair: 1)$750 Dealership. 2) $1,000 local TDI mechanic. Both estimates are higher than what I had expected.

If your local TDI mechanic is any good, his estimate might be better. VW dealers tend to only replace the timing belt. Then they wait for something else to break, so they can charge you more money. A good TDI mechanic will replace everything turned by the TB. This includes water pump, idler wheels, etc. Check to make sure what all is included in each before you decide.

SkiTraveler said:
I'm looking at the VCSD software options. Any recommendation?

The only software option is either full version (the latest) or VCDS-Lite. You do not want the Lite version because it does not support CAN bus cars. The options you must consider are cable (interface) options. A micro-CAN ($249) will work on your car. If you spend the extra $100 for a HEX+CAN model, you can also use it on older VW products.

Have Fun!

Don

MonsterTDI09 · Feb 21, 2012

SkiTraveler said:
No I have not scanned with VCDS. Just took a look at Ross-Tech. Do you have a recommendation for the minimum sofeware package?

The dealership receipt says: Retrieved Faults. "Particulate Trap Effeciency Below Threshold". Found the particulate filter faulty. Gave customer estimate for repairs-cleared codes and light is off for now-Free Diag to customer.

Did even look in to why DPF was faulty.There are no moving parts in there.I hope your turbo is not leaking oil on the exaust side.

Also, obtained two estimates to do the full timing belt repair: 1)$750 Dealership. 2) $1,000 local TDI mechanic. Both estimates are higher than what I had expected.

The full TB kit is around $300 dollers, don't know the book time for the job.

bockegg · Mar 3, 2013

If my engine light turns into a costly expense to replace, along with the DSG maintenance, then this is an expensive - inexpensive car. Totally eliminates the fuel cost savings throughout the past 4.5 years.

FYI: DPF regen info from my '09 TDI

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