Mechanical Timing Quandry

TB/WP job done. What needed to be loosened was loosened, what needed to be locked down was locked down, what needed to be TDC was TDC. No start, put IP dead center, still no start. Put IP position all the way advanced and it fires up but is definitely running rich (won't even graph on VCDS). Never had problems with a TB job before this car. We can only figure the IP's a tooth off. But if it's a tooth off, how can the lock pin go in?

What is the specific step by step procedure for remedying being "a tooth off"? Can find comments that are so-so, but we need a summary that's clear and concise and specific.

Argh!!!

put the belt back at all the markings
this is some whawt common when a few steps were missed
so this is like the 5th time i have had to say this in this last week

take the belt off. align everything up perfectly, have the cam bolt loss
now it helps to have a few clamps to hold the belt in place, NOW you can install the tensioners arm into its socket with a flat head.
if you dont do it this way you will be very advanced.

let the cam sprocket rotate freely as your tensioning the belt.

Read the damn post, okay. EVERY STEP WAS FOLLOWED, TWICE. I don't respond well to condescention, obviously. It's a friggin' tooth off, nothing unusual or unheard of, and we need to know how to fix that, which you didn't bother to provide any help with. . .

Yo dude, calm down. I just told you exactly how to fix it. I took the time to read your post. Sorry if I'm not clear enough but you have to do it until it's right.

I've had to do it too. Sometimes it seems to be how the belt lies (lays?) with its bends from packaging. In other words laziness.

In your case, since the indicators all line up after tensioning maybe it's due to wear in the pump or positioning of the pump mount on the block. I don't know how redoing it will change that.

I don't know what you're looking for in the way of instructions. Return the cam and crank to TDC, pop the cam gear off, install the cam lock, advance the pump a tooth (CW) from the pinned position, and proceed as normal verifying crank position before torquing cam bolt.

I dont know why everyone suggests to advance the pump. No need for that. Lock the cam and the ip where they need to be and take up the movement with the tensioner arm.

Thanks, KLXD! That actually makes more sense and is close to a specific instruction. Weird thing on this B4V is the IP gear seems to be sort of spring loaded. Don't remember that on my poor deceased PaTuDI. I drove Flash home last night from my work, going to take a step back for a few days. Hubs has a few other time critical projects to work on that have gotten set back by an extra 2 weekends. At some point before it wears out, we'll do the mod to an ALH IP like we did on PaTuDI.

I pulled an 00550 code from it last night (just beginning to learn VCDS). No surprise there. Wrote down the readings on Group 000, now to find out what they all mean in that section of the Forums.

Mongler, virtually every one of your responses to anyone is a smart-a$$ remark. I would strongly suggest reading your answers out loud to your wife before hitting that Post button.

Ha. Fair enough. The ip feels spring loaded because it is via the cam lobes on the head.
Setting things off by a tooth is the wrong way to do it.
I know how frustrating it can be to mess with a timing belt just to have to do it over again. Been there, done that.

Recently, I was helping set the timing on a TDIcluber's ALH and we ran into a weird issue. We couldn't get the value in VCDS to change even though we were moving the pump back and forth. It turned out to be the needle sensor in injector 3 that wasn't responding. Swapped out the injector and it worked fine. Not sure if this is part of the problem in your situation. In the other case, the cam, crank and IP were locked and the cam gear was loosened when the timing belt was installed.

Mongler98 said:

Ha. Fair enough. The ip feels spring loaded because it is via the cam lobes on the head.
Setting things off by a tooth is the wrong way to do it.
I know how frustrating it can be to mess with a timing belt just to have to do it over again. Been there, done that.

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Mongler's right again. Concerning the springs wanting to move the pump backward from the pinned position.

Now that that's said my question for Mongler is: He said all the marks line up, how will redoing it change that?

Is it safe for me to assume that after fitting the timing belt and tensioning it correctly by turning it clockwise everyone turns the engine over twice and re-checks everything is timed up still ?

KLXD said:

Mongler's right again. Concerning the springs wanting to move the pump backward from the pinned position.

Now that that's said my question for Mongler is: He said all the marks line up, how will redoing it change that?

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it wont, but i dont think its correct, you can be a tooth off and the flywheel mark actually be darn near perfect to our eyes especially if the crank sprocket has a wobble to it!

the assumption and evidence points to the IP being a tooth off, that would defiantly throw off the timing off the graph exactly like OP says. in my experience, this happens every time that the belt rotates things when trying to get it to fit.
If you go by the book, its very difficult to keep things perfectly lined up, you put the belt on and things rotate and the cam ends out slightly out of time, this once corrected by putting the belt on and tightening the tensioner actually forces the IP to retard back a bit, not sure exactly why but every time i did a belt the wrong way (according to the way i do it now) the timing would be off the graph enough though things align up enough to lock out the cam and the IP but the crank is slightly off at the flywheel.

Once i started taking up the slack with the tensioner by not putting the arm in its place and rotating the tensioner 180* the wrong way for MAX belt play, then putting the arm in its home with a flat head after i got the belt on and the timing marks correct did this stop. i never had to make the IP advanced.

the only way for OP to have a perfect timing belt install AND the timing graph this far off AND for it to run and start with it forced a tooth off, is for the pump head to be far worn down that the relationship between the head and the cam to be far off or the crank pulley to be worn down. unless he got the hans scam parts!!!!!!

AHU pumps dont have a center bolt, they have 3 bolts holding the pump sprocket on. as far as i know, you cant have the sprocket installed and it be off right???? im not 100% on this but that was my understanding.

Maybe there is an issue with the QA its self. perhaps there is more to this story, i dont know, im not working on it.

I will say that what it really sounds to me is that the IP was advanced way too much from someone that was trying to fix a symptom of a stretched belt, who knows.

A guy says the marks line up I believe him. I might say something like "are you sure the crank didn't move a bit?" but I wouldn't tell him he blew it and to do it over.


Another possibility possibility that occurred to me is that the crank sprocket keyway is wallowed out the timing system is all late including the cam. I don't really think so because from what I've read here on the subject it seems that the timing moves around if the keyway is pounded out, it doesn't just sit retarded.

It's a bit of a struggle every time I do an early TDI (1Z or AHU).

I would go through and detail what I normally do to ensure the slack is removed from between the intermediate shaft and pump section of the belt, that's where I normally struggle a bit and have to press down on the lock down pin to rotate the pump a bit and fight to remove the slack as needed. Otherwise when I go to reinstall the cam sprocket, I either cant get it to fit or I end up moving the crank as I pull on the belt to get the cam pulley in place, resulting in effectively being a tooth off.

But, PaTuDI has an ALH pump with the ALH style pulley, does she not? The easiest 1Z/AHU timing belt I've ever done was with an ALH pump and pulley installed. With the adjustable pulley on those it's far, far easier to remove the slack from the intermediate shaft side of the belt without having to fight anything.

You do have a guy who's pretty good at sussing out and fixing problems on these cars about an hour and a half North Would save Kevin a lot of time and headache.

IP locked-Cam Locked-Flywheel on the Mark. Pay particular attention when putting belt on that you are tight between the crank and the IP. I need a helper when I do this but I advance the sprocket on the IP by 1/2 or one tooth- take the IP lock pin out after positioning the belt between the crank and IP and then turn the sprocket on the IP clockwise when facing it and when you have the sprocket turned enough to grab the next rib on the belt hold it there till you get the rest of the belt on-this in essence tightens the belt a little more. Don't worry about the IP lock pin not going back in. It will be a hair off. Before beginning this I would position the IP in the middle of it's travel so that you have plenty of leeway to fine tune the timing afterwards. Hope this helps.

AHU pumps dont have a center bolt, they have 3 bolts holding the pump sprocket on.

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You must be thinking of an ALH pump.

Matt -- PaTuDI got totalled last year, this is on Flash. Old belt was definitely stretched out. Will be doing the "a tooth off" fix this weekend, had a bunch of other stuff to take care of the last couple weekends so had to take a step back.

MarsBar said:

Matt -- PaTuDI got totalled last year, this is on Flash. Old belt was definitely stretched out. Will be doing the "a tooth off" fix this weekend, had a bunch of other stuff to take care of the last couple weekends so had to take a step back.

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I remember being totaled, but thought it had survived enough to drive. Didn't think the insurance took her away.

The body's pretty badly tweaked. We'd just done the TB a few months earlier, too, dammit. Still have her, taking interior stuff off to use on Flash. That NM sun does a number! She'll be listed here shortly -- engine & tranny, with the bonus of a body.

UPDATE: Hubby was finally able to take a day to get into Flash and correct the tooth situation. Fired right up and purrs like a kitten. I still have to go in with the VCDS and fine tune the timing, if it needs to be at all.


Now he's back to working on the motorhome, the house, the yard, the '57, etc., etc., etc.