What is Handling?

4vdubs

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Sep 9, 2005
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Jetta TDI, 2003, Silver
I have had FSD's since April and love the way they make my car feel and handle. In June I installed shine springs and things are even better now! The shine springs corrected the one thing I didn't like about the FSD's and that was the increased rear ride height.

I'll be at the fest Friday night and Saturday until about noon if anyone would like to try out this set-up.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm very interested in how your car rides and handles with this setup. I considered trying this but was concerned that the spring rates would be too high. And my car is pretty tall: but I load it down a lot so that's OK. I'll look for you at the Fest.
 

4vdubs

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Dang...I wish I'd seen this post before I left for the fest. I saw you but didn't know you wanted a test drive. Anyhow I was only there for short periods of time on Friday and Saturday and when I saw you, you were very busy.

I hope you didn't have to take home as much as you brought!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Didn't bring as much home, that's for sure. I want to try a track day with the FSDs to see how they perform.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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A member here told me recently that an SCCA member has been using them in his GTI for track days and likes them. I have found the Reds on my A3 don't provide quite enough damping on the track. Perhaps these will be better. Looks like I'll be at NHIS in mid-October.
 

mel72349

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Aug 4, 2006
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Randallstown, MD
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2006 New Beetle manual
Waiting breathlessly for more GT suspension stuff (puff-puff)

Great thread. Looking forward to more on the GT setup. While a lot of folks fancy themselves "race track" or "autocross" drivers, the reality is most actually drive and appreciate what the GT setup offers.
 

somepunk22

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Joined
May 24, 2004
Location
Minnesota
I auto-x my golf with FSDs. Suspension mods are FSDs, rear sub-frame stiffeners, and air lift bags in the rear (set at 0psi). There is still a bit of body roll, but the car is getting closer to neutral. On gravel roads, the car mostly oversteers, and I have spun it out autoxing. I couldn't imagine the oversteer with a RSB.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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I'm not going to make it to NHIS: Dyno day comes first! But I am scheduled for Lime Rock on Nov. 17. I think the FSDs will match this course better as it doesn't have some of the harsh transitions in road surface that NHIS has. I've also installed the TT front subframe brace and this tightened up turn-in noticeably. I have a Eurosport upper stress bar but it is going to take some work to get it to fit--it's not a plug-and-play. My objective is to get the suspension anchors stiff enough so that the car maintains its geometry under hard cornering, therefore (I hope) improving grip. We'll see.
 

Varkias

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Jan 22, 2006
Location
Turners Falls, MA
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'02 Golf TDI
GoFaster said:
Let's try sticky-ing this again.
A most excellent idea!

For those of you out there like me who read this and found it to be very helpful, but who also were a little fuzzy on some of the hard-core techno babble, here are some recent threads with some much more plan English information in them.

Koni Reds vs. FSD's

Stock height suspension upgrades

And if you want even more excellent information, this is Peter's original thread on VWVortex about suspension. Where a lot of what's posted here came from.
 
Last edited:

Piranha

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Sep 12, 2003
Location
Malta (Europe)
TDI
golf 2000 Flash Red
Ok,
So these are my views:

lowering the a4 chassis increases body roll and Increases the amount of posative camber on your wheels, But fitting a tt wheel bearing housing decreases the + camber at full roll sharpening steering.


I have lowered my TDI by about 3" front anc 4.5" rear ( the tdi's rear end kind of its high inmy opinion) giving an exact ground clearence of 165mm under the jacking points in all 4 corners.

I have also installed the following:
KW coilovers (varient 3) with adjustable compression and rebound dampers with harder springs.

TT 19mm front anti roll bar, stock rear.
TT front knuckles
Powerflex bushes all round (the front wishbone rear bush iss too soft and moves too much.
Chassis has been reinforced with strut bars, reinforced subframe
along with engine modifications to increase power.


My findings are as follows:
Understeer is not so pronounced.
you can oversteer the car on purposley and by mnistake, but i do not see it to be so snappy, although it can catch you by surprise.
enticing the car to drift has become much easier albeit it has to be done at higher speed.

One factor that has NOT been metioned is this.
wheel and tire package.

The car is undrivable using the standard size 15" wheel (6" wide et48)
BUT with 225/45zr17 tires on 17" (8.5" wide et35) there is a big difference, and i'm sure that using wheels 1" bigger (18") will also improve things (but roads in malta are too bad for this size).
 

DbLog

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Jun 30, 2006
Location
Royal Oak, MI
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2011 335d
Nice post Piranha!! Try taking off the FSB, or just tucking it up. You can zip tie it out of the way. Your inside front won't lift as much increasing traction. You may like the results.

Piranha said:
TT 19mm front anti roll bar, stock rear
TT front knuckles
Powerflex bushes all round (the front wishbone rear bush iss too soft and moves too much.
Chassis has been reinforced with strut bars, reinforced subframe
along with engine modifications to increase power.


My findings are as follows:
Understeer is not so pronounced.
you can oversteer the car on purposley and by mnistake, but i do not see it to be so snappy, although it can catch you by surprise.
enticing the car to drift has become much easier albeit it has to be done at higher speed.
 

Piranha

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golf 2000 Flash Red
DBLog,


I had tried that, but the car felt different in a way I did not like.
If you understand what I mean!

I had found that
I got more body roll with that setup
 

GoFaster

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Jun 16, 1999
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Brampton, Ontario, Canada
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2006 Jetta TDI
OF COURSE disconnecting the front antiroll bar is going to cause more body roll. That's not the point; the thinking is that it will increase grip on irregular surfaces by allowing more "independent" motion of the suspension, and it will transfer the roll stiffness balance to the rear. It should increase the geometry-induced "feel" of understeer when approaching the cornering limits. I have not tried this myself; I did the usual thing of putting on a stiffer rear bar ...
 

Piranha

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Malta (Europe)
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golf 2000 Flash Red
GoFaster said:
OF COURSE disconnecting the front antiroll bar is going to cause more body roll. That's not the point; the thinking is that it will increase grip on irregular surfaces by allowing more "independent" motion of the suspension, and it will transfer the roll stiffness balance to the rear. It should increase the geometry-induced "feel" of understeer when approaching the cornering limits. I have not tried this myself; I did the usual thing of putting on a stiffer rear bar ...

GoFaster,

The problem with disconnecting the front anti-roll bar is that you increase body roll, which means that your front wheels will change from negative caster to positave castor earlier than with the antiroll bar, hence making this bad for handling.

the actual improvement would be to strengthen the front and rear antiroll bar by the same amout (and fit a limited slip diff, or better a lockable diff, so that you can keep the power to the ground
 

Doc_Oc

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03 Golf TDI
The caster will not be affected in anyway. The camber will go into positive sooner, indeed. But that's why you use stiffer front springs and bigger rear sway bar.
So the front wheels will still stay in negative (relatively true) camber since the rear susspension (RSB will fight the body roll) is stiffer.
This will always be a debate as it is counterintuitive. But it works. Give it a try and see.
 

Piranha

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golf 2000 Flash Red
Doc_Oc said:
The caster will not be affected in anyway. The camber will go into positive sooner, indeed. But that's why you use stiffer front springs and bigger rear sway bar.
So the front wheels will still stay in negative (relatively true) camber since the rear susspension (RSB will fight the body roll) is stiffer.
This will always be a debate as it is counterintuitive. But it works. Give it a try and see.
Doc, you're right, i mean t camber not castor.

I have tried it in the past, and being totally honest it did feel better at low - medium speeds, but I seemd to be reacing the limits earlier, although when it did understeer it was less violent, but then again with my current setup the car has a more neautral feel and does not tend to want to understeer so much. please note that I have TT knuckles but the car is lowered which does increase negative (thanks to the nuckles) but in turn the car sits very close to the standard camber (thanks to the lowering).
 

Doc_Oc

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03 Golf TDI
At the end of the day it is a personal choice.
In my case for example, I drove my car on almost stock suspension, only lowered for 2 years. And I mean I DROVE it. So I got used to it. I knew when it's loosing it, I knew how to through the rear out in a corner and so on. So I was familiar with the car.
1 month ago I started upgrading: strut bar was the first thing. At first I didn't feel a difference, but then the car would catch me by surprise in the way it reacted in hard cornering. Then new shocks/springs came in (Koni coilovers) and a RSB from HSport. The car is totaly different. And it bites. If I brake in a corner, the way I use to do with the stock suspension, we all know how fun that can be :)
So, now, I am pretty much at square one and I have 2 options. Learn to drive the new setup, or make the new setup feel and drive like stock.
I like learning though :)
 

mr.mindless

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Rochester, NY
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2002 Galactic Blue Jetta GLS
I got to know the stock setup, then after reading this thread pulled the endlinks on the front bar. it felt much nicer in tight twisties but I didn't like the body motion on long sweepers.

I got a Neuspeed 28mm rear sway, installed it on full soft, hooked up the front sway and have not looked back. It may be fun to put it on full stiff, pull the front bar, and see how high in the air I could get a rear inside tire on hard cornering with the 245 tires I'll be running next year :)

Tires are a direction I rather wish this thread could go. I know I mentioned it before, but they make a bigger difference than any other single thing. Put Azenis on an Avalon and in spite of its suspension tuning it'll probably do some amazing things on pavement.
 

Piranha

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Doc, in my opinion the best setup is non existant.
I feel that it is an individual choise with an infinate amount of possibilities.


Mike, tires....
hehe.
Let's put it this way with 195/55zr16 my car is 100% undrivable, the steering is utterly useless and the thing even understeers in a straight line (if there is such a thing hehe)
with 225/45zr17 the diference is unmeasurable.

To date I have nit yet put a decent antirollbar on the back.

I think that that should be my next investment.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Also consider suspension settings. I have 1 degree of negative camber in my A3 and it makes it feel a lot more responsive, and the front end doesn't wash out on hard cornering. I have 1/2 degree on my wagon and even that made a noticeable difference. And I haven't seen any unusual tire wear. I am going to have the ball joints slotted and 2 degrees of negative put in my Golf. I hope to improve front grip enough that the rear will rotate more easily without adding any stabilizer bars, as adding a rear bar is not allowed in the SCCA Showroom stock class.
 

mr.mindless

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That would be quite an improvement I think. Camber plates for the rear have not been brought up here either that I recall - a few more degrees in back to match much improved front may make a big difference in hard cornering, but may make things worse in a straight line with as much negative camber as the back rides at to begin with.

(any hitch news, Peter?)
 

Piranha

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I have been considering camber plates for a while, but have never got down to actually looking for a suitable set.

unfortuantly though, the mk4 will never handle like a mk2 :(
The amount of grip my mk2 has is utterly unbeleivable.
 

Doc_Oc

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Piranha, I can't agree more with you on you last post regarding MKIV and MKII. Or the original GTI MKI.
The same with the perfect setup.
In what concerns tires...I thought that's a given. :)

I noticed inside wear on my tires after 50K. On stock front setup, when I changed the ball joints, I pulled them all the way to the outside. I never took the car to an alignment shop though, so I don't know what amount of camber does that yeld. I rotated the tires, front to back at 20-25k firstime and at 50 the second time. 55k maybe. That is pretty much the whole life of the tire and there is a difference of probably 1-1.5 mm between the inside and the outside of the tire. And this happened only on the fronts. The rears didn't show any difference. Which makes me wonder. What is the stock rear camber? I don't think is that high at all.
 

IndigoBlueWagon

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Stock rear camber is negative when the car is level but quite quickly turns to positive when it rolls. That's why increasing rear roll stiffness is so helpful.
 

Piranha

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Doc,

If you pull the ball joints out on the wisbones, you f***ing up youtoe in, (if I understood you correctly.

Indigo,

When I get home i'll have to check my camber measurments
i'll get back to you.
 
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