Update on PaTuDI's demise

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
To refresh -- PaTuDI my B4V was rear ended by a full sized & loaded Ford Transit van last June and totaled. Liberty Mutual was the other guys insurance and has jerked me around every way they could think of since then. First settlement offer used a wagon in CO with a blown tranny and a sedan in OR, while there were 2 right here in CA.

I ended up having to take the driver and his boss to Small Claims court. Liberty sent them a stack of Car Fax & valuation reports and no one to represent them (lawyers not allowed, but an adjustor or a paralegal could have shown up).

I provided the judge with CraigsList ads of the only 4 comps that came up for sale in the entire Western US from July to September and a table comparing them against each other and to my car. Explained about one year only model, fewer than 600 in existence, 324K miles being in the prime of life for cars that regularly live for 500K miles, that by national average miles/year my car was only 4% over the average, and quoted the Calif Fair Claims Settlement Act requirements (I swear, I'm going to be chanting that damn thing in my sleep!).

Liberty's first offer last summer was $2,960, including 9.25% sales tax & DMV fees. :eek: They upped their offer 4 more times as comps were produced and their flimsy excuses for this and that blown out of the water. Final offer was $5,733 total. The sticking points were: assuming that one comp's increased price was a second concurrent listing. . .but they couldn't provide anything to support that (because it wasn't a second listing), and rejecting another comp that had had a ton of neglected/deferred maintenance remedied (they contended it was all mods/upgrades even after being proven not).

Fair Market Value per the comparables even back in July was $6,565 total. In October it was up to $6,714. The judge said that $6,700 seemed a little bit high but $6,500 was fair. So I got a judgment for $6,500 plus court costs of $205. I'm happy, it's a figure that follows the rules. :)

When the dust settles, I'll be putting her up for sale. The drivetrain is killer, 7k mile old clutch, upgraded to the ALH IP setup, he seats & front half of the body are darn near perfect. But don't get any ideas about the door handles and window regulators! I'm keeping those for when they fail on PaTuDI's replacement.
 

ToBiN

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Location
Colorado
TDI
2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
Wow, congrats on the win.

These insurance companies will do anything to get out of paying for anything. When a semi truck wrecked into my father in laws 1979 C20 long bed, (This truck looked like the day it was new, even down to stock wheels, tires, and poop brown paint) Fireman's Fund insurance didn't pay any of the medical bills and tried to give him $500 for the truck. I told him absolutely not, do no cash that check and I would have it appraised beforehand.

Appraisal came in at about $5800 fair market value. Insurance still shorted him about $1000 but he didn't want to push the issue so we settled.

Unfortunately our credit still has those unpaid medical bills on it because my kids were in the truck and required ambulance ride to the hospital. Contacting the injury lawsuit lawyers just told us there wasn't enough money in it for them so we were SOL. It still burns me that Fireman's fund got away without paying any medical bills on an insured they covered.

Lessons learned: Turn in the medical bills your personal insurance and let them go after the other insurance company for reimbursement. Otherwise, do what you did and just sue them in small claims court for the bills and damages.

Also, take time off work to locate replacement vehicles. visit a doctor or two. Go see a chiropractor or some other physical therapy doctor. These things seem to make insurance company's skin crawl where they just start sending you checks to stay out of court.
 

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
When you're the third party and not the insured you get screwed that many more ways. This was only the Property Damage portion. Next I get to tackle the Bodily Injury side of things. This time, it's not the amount that's disputed, it's the release form they're trying to coerce me to sign in order to get the money. There's a paragraph that says it's settlement of a "dubious and doubtful" claim, which sounds like I'm trying to scam them. I don't like that inference as to my character one little bit! Also refuse to waive my rights to recourse in the unlikely event something unexpected crops up relating to my back sprain. I offered a period of 2 years and then close the book. They rejected both issues, told me I signed their form or they'd reject any counter. Talk about unreasonable!
 

Mongler98

Top Post Dawg
Joined
Mar 23, 2011
Location
COLORADO (SE of Denver)
TDI
98 Jetta TDI AHU 1.9L (944 TDI swap in progress) I moved so now i got nothing but an AHU in a garage on a pallet.
i cant believe you got all that sorted out.
Seems like a few grand over a year, you should have gotten interest on it!
 

ToBiN

Veteran Member
Joined
Feb 9, 2017
Location
Colorado
TDI
2013 Sportwagen TDI/M6; 2006 Dodge 3500 Cummins/M6 Mega Cab; 2011 Jetta TDI/M6 (sold)
Hopefully you didn't sign anything releasing them of liability so you still have a medical case against their driver.

Good luck.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
There's a paragraph that says it's settlement of a "dubious and doubtful" claim, which sounds like I'm trying to scam them. I don't like that inference as to my character one little bit! Also refuse to waive my rights to recourse in the unlikely event something unexpected crops up relating to my back sprain. I offered a period of 2 years and then close the book. They rejected both issues, told me I signed their form or they'd reject any counter. Talk about unreasonable!
They aren't being unreasonable. First of all, waiting two years before you settle is your right according to the statue of limitations and is good practice. No one will hold that against you but it's also not a concession on your end (it's not an "offer" in the sense that you wrote it). The flip-side of that is you'll need to pay all injury related expenses out of pocket until they settle with you.

Secondly, the dubious and doubtful language in a settlement offer is standard practice and not impugning your character. Insurance carriers are third parties and they don't have the authority to conclude one way or the other how the claim should proceed. They aren't going to expose their insured to liability; they are offering you a settlement in order to avoid litigation.

Someone hit you. A third party is going to pay the damages. The third party can't say, "here's the money for the damages our insured caused to you." You could, in theory, take that letter to a court and argue that their insurance has admitted liability for the accident. They are instead saying, "here is money for you to go away." We don't accept fault or responsibility for the accident, this is simply to avoid a lawsuit. They are *not* going to say, "we are sorry for the accident our insured caused, here is an offer for the damages that entity caused."

That's what that language means.
 

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
I've found that the "dubious and doubtful" is standard, which really frosts me.

They'll only settle if I completely waive my Section 1542 rights. If I said six months, their answer would still be "sign our form the way we've written it or we reject everything". Really bugs me, too, that Bodily Injury Liability doesn't actually pay the medical bills. It pays the victim and the victim pays medical out of that. If I were to wait out the 2 years, wouldn't get any interest for the time they had the money, either. What a rigged system. I can kind of see why sheister PI attorneys exist.

Sneakiest thing they tried to accomplish with the release was to close out BOTH the car and my back for a total of $3k, which is $40 over their first property damage offer was on my car. It was a General Release of All. Snakes!
 

IndigoBlueWagon

TDIClub Enthusiast, Principal IDParts, Vendor , w/
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How much time did you spend to get that additional $1K over Liberty's final offer?
 

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
They made the final offer Sept 5, I sent them and their insured a Demand Letter giving them until Oct 22 to settle for the documented Fair Market Value, and filed in Small Claims on Oct 23. First avail court date was December 22, but the other guy was out of town so had to postpone until next available, which was yesterday. The Dept of Insurance was dumbfounded over how dug in they were being over such a cut & dried case.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
When you use emotionally charged language (you're "frosted," they're being "sneaky"), it indicates to me that you're having difficulty separating the personal from the impersonal. I understand why that language would aggravate you, but it's important to remember that the third-party insurance agency has a legal obligation and right to minimize liability for their client. The mere act of offering you any money is an admission of liability under normal circumstances, so strictly as a legal matter the insurance agency has to declare that they are offering you this money regardless of the fact your claim has no merit.

From a human perspective, you likely want and need someone to say, "We're sorry this person caused damage and pain to you. Here is compensation that we hope will be enough to get you close enough to whole." Unfortunately, no one is going to apologize to you for the hurt and damage that was thrust into your life. The closest you will come to closure is whatever you personally provide to your own mental well-being.

So that's the pitch attempting to walk you back to a place recognizing the frustration you're feeling can at least partially be attributed to some unrealistic expectations regarding the process. The legal matters, however, are relatively easy to resolve.

For example, it doesn't matter what the paper they sent you has written at the top. A General Release vs. a Damage Release doesn't change the meaning as much as the content within the letter. Regardless of what it does or doesn't say at the top, the content must include language regarding property damage release only (eg, if the letter is a General Release but includes language of releasing all property damage claims--good to go, whereas even if it is s Property Damage release form but includes language releasing all liability claims--not good to go).

It's entirely possible there was a mistake in the forms you were sent. The only way to know is to call the company and politely explain that you believe there is a miscommunication and that you need to amend the document to release *only* property claims before you sign it. It will be resolved one way or the other and it will be done quickly. The person on the other end won't be trying to screw, cheat, or sneak something by you--they are simply doing their job. Again, it's important to remember that minimizing liability for their client is part of their job and nothing is personal in this situation. That said, I have had one experience with an insurance adjuster who was personalizing the issue. A somewhat quick call to the state's insurance oversight agency resolved that matter--so it can happen but there are resolutions if it does.

It's very important to contact *your* medical insurance agency before finalizing a claim. They will want to subrogate any and all claims against the responsible party. When you paid $50 bucks to go into the ER and let's say you paid $1500 co-insurance for all the testing, your medical insurance covered the true cost of your visit. Once you get a settlement everyone who paid anything will be legally authorized to go after that settlement until *they* are made whole, as well.

The amount you have paid so far for your medical care is not likely to be the true cost of that care. Your medical insurance has subsidized some of that care and is owed their full amount. You can't assume, you must inquire. You'll need a final statement from your medical care provider and insurance company (not auto insurance, your medical insurance, your employer, etc.) regarding the actual value of your medical care and what it will cost to exhaust their claim.

The concern over any potential interest is not likely to gain any traction with anyone looking at your situation. Ignoring the fact that the interest amount wouldn't likely to be more than a few dollars at current interest rates ($10,000 dollars would be around $100 interest, right?), you aren't actually *owed* anything because there is no amount agreed upon. It's your right and choice to wait two years before settling, but that doesn't mean anyone owes you anything for exercising that right. There is no amount on the table that would even been earning interest (ie, the $3,000 dollar offer is simply an offer and not a debt). If I offer you an amount of money for something but you tell me that you'd rather wait and see if it's enough for you, I don't owe you anything.

I know you know that and you're frustrated at the situation so detailing all the ills being done to you during the process. I empathize with you, but at the same time I want to be clear that the more you get bogged down with those kind of minutiae you risk missing something that can cost you big time. For example, the subrogation issue that many people negotiating settlements for themselves miss. Or whether you've seen a licensed therapist to ensure that you are emotionally and mentally healthy before getting back on the road.

When my wife was the victim of a rollover accident the insurance company didn't want to pay much more than $350 dollars. She was in a Geo Metro and miraculously didn't suffer any detectable injuries through many, many, many tests and procedures. She was 20 at the time and I was extremely cautious about long-term effects this could have on her body that might not crop up for decades. I was also skeptical that someone could make it through this kind of accident unscathed (flipped by a car moving into her lane on the freeway, wiped out one of those huge concrete freeway signs, flipped and rolled multiple times, slid on the roof for half a football field, and then literally kicked her way out of the vehicle when she came to, calling me to come get her while telling first responders to attend to the other vehicle as they were probably more hurt!). Needless to say I was worried and a bit annoyed with her when I got that call. I believe I told her to sit the eff down and wait for first responders to clear her themselves because she could literally be missing a limb and not realize it (seen it before, sadly). I'll post some pictures of the car and her unamused face in the hospital in a few minutes :D

Anyway, their position was that almost dying doesn't have a special slot in their actuary tables. Dying does. Losing a limb does. Losing the loss of a limb does. But *almost* any of those things: well there isn't much "value" to that. So you have to operationalize the value. Must put that "harm" into concrete terms. The legal process for operationalizing non-concrete forms of harm, like PTSD or anxiety over driving after a severe, life-threatening accident, is to be evaluated and treated by a licensed professional. There's a cost associated with those visits, there's an inconvenience, and there's a tangible hit to your work ability within that context (having to see a therapist every T/Th from 2-3pm, for example). Those costs can be built into a settlement very easily. It's much harder to argue for a vague claim of "suffering."

I hope this information is helpful to you.
 

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
Drink a lot of the KoolAid, do you? I've always considered these forums as a place to not only ask advice on our TDI's, but to be able to vent frustrations freely without fear of being rebuked, treated as a petulent child throwing a tantrum, or being told to seek professional mental health assistance. Yes, you suggested exactly that. Not cool, dude. Really not cool.

The release sent was not any kind of "unintentional error" on the part of Liberty Mutual. The wording was designed to completely close both PD and BI claims.

It's no secret that adjustors are evaluated on how little they can get a claimant to settle for. California has a very clear set of rules that are to be followed in a total loss situation. Failure to follow those requirements is considered Bad Faith in the eyes of the Dept of Insurance.

Liberty's response to the Dept of Ins when they were called out for not following the Fair Claims Settlement Act requirements was "so?".
 
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bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
being told to seek professional mental health assistance. Yes, you suggested exactly that. Not cool, dude. Really not cool.
It elevated my wife's claim from $350 dollars to over $10,000.

Yeah, not cool indeed :rolleyes:
 

MarsBar

Veteran Member
Joined
Apr 28, 2008
Location
San Jose, CA
TDI
B4V#2 "Flash", 2000 Jetta GL, B4V#1 "PaTuDI" (2008-2018 RIP)
Suggesting I seek professional help for venting my frustrations here is the impression of what was written. THAT is not cool.
 

bizzle

Veteran Member
Joined
May 21, 2013
Location
Southern California
TDI
2015 GSW SEL (totaled), 2013 Touareg Executive
Suggesting I seek professional help for venting my frustrations here is the impression of what was written. THAT is not cool.
I never made any suggestion of the sort you are accusing me of doing. Here's what I actually wrote, quoted from an unedited forum post:
I empathize with you, but at the same time I want to be clear that the more you get bogged down with those kind of minutiae you risk missing something that can cost you big time. For example, the subrogation issue that many people negotiating settlements for themselves miss. Or whether you've seen a licensed therapist to ensure that you are emotionally and mentally healthy before getting back on the road.
That was followed with a lengthy personal anecdote of legal terminology and rationale that was intended to help you maximize your claim.
Anyway, their position was that almost dying doesn't have a special slot in their actuary tables. Dying does. Losing a limb does. Losing the loss of a limb does. But *almost* any of those things: well there isn't much "value" to that. So you have to operationalize the value. Must put that "harm" into concrete terms. The legal process for operationalizing non-concrete forms of harm, like PTSD or anxiety over driving after a severe, life-threatening accident, is to be evaluated and treated by a licensed professional. There's a cost associated with those visits, there's an inconvenience, and there's a tangible hit to your work ability within that context (having to see a therapist every T/Th from 2-3pm, for example). Those costs can be built into a settlement very easily. It's much harder to argue for a vague claim of "suffering."

I hope this information is helpful to you.
True, I didn't say, "go see a therapist so you can get more money" but I also didn't say, "you're so angry you need to see a therapist" so I don't know how you arrived at that conclusion. I think the former would have been a rather crass way of approaching the topic. Instead, I said to make sure you've seen all the professionals you're entitled to see and that includes making sure you're made emotionally whole, too.

You think me writing that isn't cool but you taking your frustration out on someone who was trying to help you out is cool? We have different perspectives but I'll gladly oblige and not do so anymore. Best of luck with your claim.
 
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KITEWAGON

Veteran Member
Joined
Jun 29, 2009
Location
Seacoast, NH
TDI
2014 Touareg Exec, 2014 JSW
Good for you for fighting to get what you deserved. I can't stand insurance companies or all of the nasty legalese they hit you with as they are trying to dodge their responsibilities.
 
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