B4 Inner Tie rod replacement

OilBurnerDE

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1997 Passat T-Red
This thread will come in handy. I recently replaced the bushings, bearings, outer tie rods, ball joints and strut mounts and bearings. I left the inner tie rods alone because there wasn't any play in them.

After having the car aligned, it pulled to the left and was very twitchy on the road especially with a cross wind.

Took it back to the shop, and they said the inners need to be replaced because the jam nuts are stuck and they can't adjust it the way the need to.

So the next pay check, the inners will be ordered and the tools sourced to attempt this procedure.
So this thread gets a thumbs up from me!
 

TonyJetta

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There seems to be some interest, so, I thought I'd post some pics of the tool I made. Others have commented that you could turn the steering wheel such that the rack extends out to be able to put an open end wrench or crescent wrench on it.

At any rate, here's the tool I used:




As I mentioned earlier, I bought a cheap 1/2" drive extension set and wrench set that included a 32mm open end wrench, from harbor freight.

Tony
 

Lug_Nut

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OilBurnerDE said:
Took it back to the shop, and they said the inners need to be replaced because the jam nuts are stuck and they can't adjust it the way the need to.
Have them put it up on a lift and point out the jam nuts on the inner ends....
There aren't any. All the adjustment is at the outer.
 

jollyGreenGiant

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Have them put it up on a lift and point out the jam nuts on the inner ends....
There aren't any. All the adjustment is at the outer.
My guess is that the outer area is so seized up they want to just cut the rod in the middle to gain access to the inner and then replace the whole deal with new parts... Although a glowing red jam nut has always been moveable for me.
 

TonyJetta

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Scrubber,
Was that tie rod on the Jetta or Golf?

AFAIK, the B4 tie rods are specific; not generic enough across the VW product lines.

Tony
 

scrubber

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TonyJetta said:
Scrubber,
Was that tie rod on the Jetta or Golf?
'02 Golf. I know it's the wrong forum, but I thought the
tool might be the answer for some people. It will work
for both 33.6mm and 32mm (I now have both sizes on the car).
 

TonyJetta

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Scrubber,
No problem...kinda threw me for a loop with the different size.;)

Tony
 

Digital Corpus

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I’m bumping this for confirming information. The Harbo Freight tool (#63705) is a good bet. The stock tie rods use the 1-1/4” die and the new AC Delco replacement tie rods used the 33.6 mm die. The latter are about 1/2” longer, but the tie rod end (not the end of the inner tie rod, but the ball joint end that bolts to the knuckle) has more than enough depth to deal with the excess. The threading is M14x1.5 for the record.
 

ToddA1

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I bought a crows foot wrench for about $7. Not even worth the time to make one.

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

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I'm with Todd, the crows foot is perfect for this and cheap.

I’m bumping this for confirming information. The Harbo Freight tool (#63705) is a good bet. The stock tie rods use the 1-1/4” die and the new AC Delco replacement tie rods used the 33.6 mm die. The latter are about 1/2” longer, but the tie rod end (not the end of the inner tie rod, but the ball joint end that bolts to the knuckle) has more than enough depth to deal with the excess. The threading is M14x1.5 for the record.
Sounds to me like the AC Delco branded inner tie rod is for ZF and not TRW maybe? That would explain why it's 1/2" longer, which is consistent with what I've found when comparing ZF to TRW inner tie rods.

Steve
 

Digital Corpus

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I'm with Todd, the crows foot is perfect for this and cheap.
Sounds to me like the AC Delco branded inner tie rod is for ZF and not TRW maybe? That would explain why it's 1/2" longer, which is consistent with what I've found when comparing ZF to TRW inner tie rods.
Steve
You’re correct on this. However, is the rod diameter that critical? The ball joint of both have the same OD. The Bentlies just say to not install the TRW in the ZF racks. I have the new AC Delco parts, but they come with tie rod ends too, not just the inners. You need 1-1/4” adapters for TRW.

I would use a crows foot, but there is an issue. OE tie rods used an 8-point “lobe” so a hex/crow’s foot wouldn’t work [well]. The new ones were rounded square loves and a hex-anything won’t fit. The Harbor Freight tool handles both properly.
 

Steve Addy

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You’re correct on this. However, is the rod diameter that critical? The ball joint of both have the same OD. The Bentlies just say to not install the TRW in the ZF racks. I have the new AC Delco parts, but they come with tie rod ends too, not just the inners. You need 1-1/4” adapters for TRW.
I would use a crows foot, but there is an issue. OE tie rods used an 8-point “lobe” so a hex/crow’s foot wouldn’t work [well]. The new ones were rounded square loves and a hex-anything won’t fit. The Harbor Freight tool handles both properly.
I think the reason the Bentley has gone this route is because it would take far too much explaining to the average person about what parts will work with what racks (in reality) so it's just easier to draw the line and say that there's no compatibility.

AFAIK it's really a one way compatiility issue and some folks might conclude without thinking that if it works one way it'll work going the other, and that's not a safe conclusion with this.

Yeah, now that you mention is I remember that some of these use hex fit and some use square. I guess the tool you would need depends on who made the product.

Steve
 

Steve Addy

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I'm trying to get this rack stuff sorted out, my TRW rack on the 90 B3V is making noise, not yet leaking, but there's a 96 B4V GLX at the local upull and although the weather is total crap outside I'd like to get the rack off of it.

At this point I'm thinking the following:

Both ZF and TRW racks are same dimensions.
Both ZF and TRW racks accept the same inner tie rods
ZF inner tie rods are same both sides.
ZF tie rods (complete assy) are same both sides.
TRW inner tie rods are same both sides.
TRW outer tie rods are side specific (as are complete tie rod assy).
TRW inner tie rods are shorter than ZF tie rods.
Steering u-joint assembly is different between TRW and ZF racks.

Is any of the above not true?

I'm convinced that the racks are the same dimensions and all the 'difference' is taken up in the tie rod assemblies, aka different lengths, and so if you're careful about what components you use to connect the racks you can make it work just fine. Also, though you need (at least what I've read online in other forums) the steering u-joint assy for the specific rack you're installing.

In other words, a ZF rack replacing a TRW on a car with 4 cylinder 4x100 suspension would use TRW tie rod assemblies. A ZF rack replacing a TRW on a 4 cylinder car converted to 5x100 "Plus" suspension would use the ZF tie rod assemblies.

Any comments about this appreciated!!

Steve
 
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ToddA1

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I can confirm your first 2 TRW comments. I have an extra set, if you need specific info.

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

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I can confirm your first 2 TRW comments. I have an extra set, if you need specific info.

-Todd
That would be awesome if you could confirm with specific measurements. Don't go to a bunch of work digging anything out of storage though!

Steve
 

ToddA1

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They’re sitting on a parts shelf, so no digging is required.

I can text you pics if interested. PM me your number, if so. Can probably get to it later today or tomorrow.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to run ZF parts?

-Todd
 

Steve Addy

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They’re sitting on a parts shelf, so no digging is required.

I can text you pics if interested. PM me your number, if so. Can probably get to it later today or tomorrow.

Just out of curiosity, why do you want to run ZF parts?

-Todd
No particular reason except that the TRW racked Passats are fewer and far between, the ZF racks were on every VR6 Passat and there were lots of those cars. I'm just trying to cover replacement bases here. I'm still running the original rack from the 1990 B3V and it's been clicking for a while, so it needs to be replaced. I'm not sure whether seals kits are available for these anymore, especially one as old as the 1990 B3V.s

Also there was some discussion a while back (don't remember if it was here or Vortex) that the ZF racks were less turns lock to lock (aka faster steering) not that it matters much.

I just want to make sure that the combo of parts I'll be using is going to work out the way it should, that's all.

EDIT: PM sent

They are easier to find and more common than TRW, I assume
Yes, on Passat they are more common on the B4 stuff, but TRW was used on a huge number of Mk3 cars and I think if a person compared the TRW racks from a Mk3 with those from a B4 you might find they are the same save for some drilled mounting points that may or may not matter.

But that's just speculation on my part really. It might not be true, but I can't believe that they would have deliberately specified a radically different steering rack when they didn't need to.

If it wasn't winter I would pull the TRW rack from a 1999 Mk3 at the JY just to compare to the dimensions of my TRW rack on the B3V.

That said, a My TRW rack on the B3V is not the same as the B4 TRW rack, the mounting aparatus was changed by VW at some point.

Steve
 
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Steve Addy

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Pardon the tangent, but what does the clicking sound like?
No problem, it isn't really a clicking sound it's really a clunk when you turn the wheel sometimes. It does it going either direction and randomly while driving but it shows up typically when turning.

It almost feels like the interal rack is shifting in the housing and it changes position enough to hit the side of the housing.

I don't really know how to express it any other way.

Steve
 

Digital Corpus

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Okay, thanks for the tangent. That sounds similar to worn tie rods too, though it'd be easy to eliminate that from troubleshooting. I have a click as described and the ball joint is my likely suspect.

If a ZF rack from a VR6 is a viable swap, I'm definitely interested so far as long term maintenance as you've suggested.
 

Steve Addy

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Okay, thanks for the tangent. That sounds similar to worn tie rods too, though it'd be easy to eliminate that from troubleshooting. I have a click as described and the ball joint is my likely suspect.

If a ZF rack from a VR6 is a viable swap, I'm definitely interested so far as long term maintenance as you've suggested.
I can definitely say that the noise is coming from the rack, my ball joints and tie rods were new 30k miles ago and I've watched them closely since the car rolled out on the road in early 2016.

Also, alignment is not an issue here and tires show neutral wear.

I just believe that either rack will work, it makes sense that VW would not alter the length of the rack based on engine, the space is the same for all models of B3/4, but what is not the same for all models is the control arms spindles and drive alxes; 4 cyl vs 6 cyl, or the tie rods themselves although the tie rod connections at the rack are the same.

When the temps get out of the single digits here I'll be back out there to pull the full rack assembly from this car.

Ideally I'd like to pull the rack from a Mk3 4 cyl car too (most likely TRW) and compare them. Although VW says that the two cars (Mk3 vs B3/4) use different racks I would bet that it's not actually anything to do with mounting or length that's the difference, I would bet that it's actually a secondary issue, like the mounting of a heat shield on specific models etc.

Steve
 

Steve Addy

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I got around to checking on the tie rod situation yesterday. I have only done the inner tie rods at this point since I don't have a 6 cylinder outer tie rod.

It ends up that the difference in length between inner tie rods is minimal. I'm not sure whether it's actually enough to cause a problem if a person used 6 cylinder inners with 4 cylinder suspension or not, I haven't gotten that far yet.

I will also say that my 4 cylinder inner tie rod matches the ones that Todd measured and sent me pictures of, so I'm confident that the ones I'm using are similar to all those on the market.

At any rate here's a pic comparing a VW 6 cylinder B3 inner tie rod with a 4 cylinder inner tie rod.



Here's the rack end. I had thought I'd taken a picture with the protective caps removed but apparently my phone tricked me again where it acts like it's taking a picture but in reality it isn't. It's done this before...



I examined the rack ends and they are the same and very similar length threaded shaft so they can be substituted if necessary. Further, if you're converting to 6 cylinder suspension you likely don't have to change the rack, you can probably get by with just replacing complete tie rods, which is convenient on 6 cylinder cars because the tie rod assemblies are the same L and R. On 4 cylinder cars these are different L to R or better said, the outer tie rods are different, the inner tie rods on 4 cylinder cars are the same L to R.

I haven't compared the outer tie rods yet but there is a design difference between the 4 and 6 cylidner types. There might also be a length difference too, I will report that in another post later on.

I think at this point I've convinced myself that the racks can be substituted without much pain, I will note however that if you change from one to the other that you will also need to change the shaft from the rack to the steering column, that is manufacturer specific. Also, the boots are rack specific too, so if you swap racks you will be swapping boots.

Steve
 
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